Is Nohr too evil (and is Hoshido too good)?

[FrostyFireMage]

Even Hoshidan bosses like Kumagera, who wears human skulls, aren't portrayed as evil. He's shown giving the Nohrian forces plenty of chances to leave the battle, and he only wants to kill Garon.

The Nohrian bosses such as Daniela, who boasts about giving you a long, and gruesome death, just seem to be evil.

there are Hoshidan bosses that seem to be rather depraved, such as the ones from certain children paralogues

hell, the guy who killed Saizo's father doesn't sound like a great person

like I said, Hoshido is fairly blessed so any actual depravity would be internalized and kept hidden

[Alazen]

You keep using Hoshido's prosperity in contrast to Nohr's to excuse its portrayal. FE has already shown a kingdom like Grannvale having serious infighting.

Again, Imperial Japan. Or I can use the United States' being open about segregation.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Alazen

[Emperor Hardin]

there are Hoshidan bosses that seem to be rather depraved, such as the ones from certain children paralogues

hell, the guy who killed Saizo's father doesn't sound like a great person

like I said, Hoshido is fairly blessed so any actual depravity would be internalized and kept hidden

What Hoshidan bosses? If you mean the Kabuki, Daichi, he's an independent bandit.

Kotarou is from the Principality of Fuuma, which is firmly established as a separate neutral nation.

[arvilino]

While I can't comment decisively because I haven't read the entire story and have bits in pieces and not the full picture. There are three things that make Nohr evil in Fates, Garon who is for those below him the absolute authority(something revealed early on enough I recall the English E3 treehouse footage including this point in some dialogue) and two characters; Iago and Ganz the exact people you'd expect to gain a high station and get to do whatever they want, exactly what you should expect given the circumstances of the plot.

Beyond some other exceptions and thanks to how the game covers two routes we can see a larger amount of Nohr characters in half of the playable cast(as opposed to 1-3 characters e.g Duessel, Amelia, Tharja, Henry,etc.) who for the most part aren't bad people, with even Odin, Laswald and Luna siding with them.

Nohr isn't evil as a whole but it has a character running the show who's authority would characterise the country as a whole, not unlike a dictatorship just with a King. To compare to another videogame with a similar scenario, Baron in Final Fantasy IV.

Edited August 17, 2015 by arvilino

[Alazen]

Making one side's top leaders in a war between nations be either over-the-top dastardly or a lackey while the other side's top leaders include Emmeryn 2.0 doesn't really speak well of Fates ability to present a conflict painted grey.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Alazen

[Ownagepuffs]

I've come to terms with it. Glorious Nippon vs Filthy Baka Gaijin is upsetting, but eh. I heard that Nohr constantly makes you feel bad for picking it. That is perhaps the worst possible thing you can do with a route split.

[Thane]

I've come to terms with it. Glorious Nippon vs Filthy Baka Gaijin is upsetting, but eh. I heard that Nohr constantly makes you feel bad for picking it. That is perhaps the worst possible thing you can do with a route split.

You just made me think of this: http://i.imgur.com/6BvDG2b.webm

Speaking of which, I just noticed I have no idea how to link gifs here, huh.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Thane

[blah the Prussian]

Japan's GDP per capita was higher was higher than China, Taiwan, and Korea's by 1935.

But it was lower than that of the USA and the United Kingdom, both of whom were its real challenges. China was like Japan's Poland, given that Chiangs army were glorified partisans by the 40s.

I've come to terms with it. Glorious Nippon vs Filthy Baka Gaijin is upsetting, but eh. I heard that Nohr constantly makes you feel bad for picking it. That is perhaps the worst possible thing you can do with a route split.

YES! I wasn't the only one who thought this! I'm not even playing as Hoshido, simply to reenact the Pacific War, but seriously, I am a bit concerned about the revisionist undertones in the story.

[HeoandReo]

It does kind of make sense in retrospect for Nohr to have a plot to reform a kingdom from the inside, although I realize in hindsight it probably would not have worked, given that the war between the factions takes away from the emphasis of reforming Nohr.

Although I didn't consider it when the trailers were first released, it might have been better for a reformation plot to be standalone in one region, rather than one involving battles between different factions. Something more along the lines of the French Revolution within history. A plot with less focus on the alternate country and more focus on the single one. (RD might have that but I've never played RD so I wouldn't know) It could have been something that they did in Invisible Kingdom, but they didn't do it there, so that's a shame.

I still hope they rewrite it a bit in the localization process, so that it feels more nuanced and less like Nohr is the inferior path.

Well playing as an imperialist pig-dog sounds about as/more fun than playing as a rag-tag revolutionary

Edited August 17, 2015 by HeoandReo

[Cinnamon Bun]

On one hand, yes, absolutely.

However if this were a normal Fire Emblem game I wouldn't really be bothered by it, I don't think. If consumers only had the choice of buying one FE game that offered no choice and went down a linear story path like prior games, Nohr would fit in really well with the other evil countries with a few great sympathetic characters. The problem is that you can literally pay $40 for this game and it seems like an afterthought. Hell, it even exerts an enormous amount of effort in making sure you know you made the wrong choice - your character is always saying as such, after all.

If you side with them, maybe Kamui shouldn't have been such a little dweeb about it and should have been characterised to be the type of person who doesn't mind conquering a foreign land for glory, or maybe they should've made the emotional connection with their "father" (the unspeakably evil Garon) a little more sympathetic.

They did a lot of things wrong and it sucks because the premise was just so good.

And even through all that, I prefer Nohr for its characters and gameplay, which reinforces just how much wasted potential that path had.

Truuuth

It makes me so angry how obviously Hoshido biased Kamui is. Why do we have regret about our choice?? Perhaps the route with (in my opinion) the best music, characters, and gameplay, and then Kamui shits the bed about it. Why??

I've liked Nohr more than Hoshido since the first reveal and the more I find out about the story and the characters the more I dislike Hoshido.

I've said it before but I'm definitely okay with having a headcanon where Kamui doesn't really give a shit about Hoshido. I almost feel like they deserve to be invaded for being sooo mind numbingly perfect.. <__<

[Nobody]

I don't mind playing as the "bad guys" at all, so I don't see Nohr as being too evil. If anything, I enjoy that more than Hoshido's "we're all good and suffer all the time =/ please stay with us brother", which i don't even mind that much anyway.

That said, I think that calling Nohr "bad" is actually overreaching. Yeah, there are plenty of bad people there, without a doubt. I consider Pieri, Belka and Zero downright bad "people" (well characters...), but that doesn't make Elise, Arthur, Benoit, Effie, Silas or Xander "evil". Xander himself is a clear allusion to the Camus archetype, villains always praised for making the game feel less "black and white. If anything, Hoshido is the one that lacks morally dubious characters.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Nobody

[Gomez_Addams]

I don't mind playing as the "bad guys" at all, so I don't see Nohr as being too evil. If anything, I enjoy that more than Hoshido's "we're all good and suffer all the time =/ please stay with us brother", which i don't even mind that much anyway.

That said, I think that calling Nohr "bad" is actually overreaching. Yeah, there are plenty of bad people there, without a doubt. I consider Pieri, Belka and Zero downright bad "people" (well characters...), but that doesn't make Elise, Arthur, Benoit, Effie, Silas or Xander "evil". Xander himself is a clear allusion to the Camus archetype, villains always praised for making the game feel less "black and white. If anything, Hoshido is the one that lacks morally dubious characters.

And I believe you have hit the nail on the head. Nohr is not "too evil." It is "just evil enough." The real issue is that Hoshido is "too good." The problem, as I see it, is that any attempt to introduce high-ranking asshats (like Iago and Ganz) in Hoshido will make Queen Mikoto seem either corrupt or very, very stupid.

[Cinnamon Bun]

And I believe you have hit the nail on the head. Nohr is not "too evil." It is "just evil enough." The real issue is that Hoshido is "too good." The problem, as I see it, is that any attempt to introduce high-ranking asshats (like Iago and Ganz) in Hoshido will make Queen Mikoto seem either corrupt or very, very stupid.

How could our dear pure mother ever employ bad people idnxbsysndayajeue but really why are we supposed to care about Hoshido?? Why do we even care about Aqua?? Thank the gods she's optional to deploy for most chapters because she is getting benched sooo hard.

[Gomez_Addams]

How could our dear pure mother ever employ bad people idnxbsysndayajeue but really why are we supposed to care about Hoshido?? Why do we even care about Aqua?? Thank the gods she's optional to deploy for most chapters because she is getting benched sooo hard.

First off, you don't have to be patronizing. If you think my argument sucks, say it straight. I'm a big boy, I can take a little criticism.

And yes, why WOULD Mikoto employ people like Iago and Ganz? What possible justification could there be for her to place her trust in such people? And why would Ryouma continue to employ them after Mikoto's death? He's king in all but name, after all.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

How could our dear pure mother ever employ bad people idnxbsysndayajeue but really why are we supposed to care about Hoshido?? Why do we even care about Aqua?? Thank the gods she's optional to deploy for most chapters because she is getting benched sooo hard.

Well, maybe we could care about Hoshido because mothers are still important for some people. Maybe we could care about Hoshido because it's supposedly the route that's the least badly written. Maybe some people simply don't want to side with a man who is clearly crazy and evil

(and is actually a living corpse).

Don't get me wrong, I too loathe how they handled this whole thing (Hoshido is too pure, Nohr is fucked up to the core, making Kamui regret their choice every now and then, etc), but if you ask yourself why people would pick Hoshido, you should cool off a bit first.

Also I care about Aqua because I want dat extra turn.

Edited August 17, 2015 by CrimeanRoyalKnight

[Alazen]

First off, you don't have to be patronizing. If you think my argument sucks, say it straight. I'm a big boy, I can take a little criticism.

And yes, why WOULD Mikoto employ people like Iago and Ganz? What possible justification could there be for her to place her trust in such people? And why would Ryouma continue to employ them after Mikoto's death? He's king in all but name, after all.

Putting aside how Fates didn't have to feature both Ganz and MacBeth as dastardly fiends, you can warrant Hoshido having at least one character like either of them using these:

A. Is successful at what he does and so he has job security.

B. Has such clout in Hoshidan government (lands, troops, wealth, supporters and/or toadies) that he can't be removed without starting a tussle.

C. Neither Mikoto or Ryoma is an absolute monarch who can do whatever he or she wishes and get away with it. Both of their rules can be presented as more precarious than in the actual Fates.

You're acting like FE has never had rulers with shady lords under their reign.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Alazen

[CyborgZeta]

Nohr is unfortunately written in a way that there's no logical reason to side with it, even if you rationalize it as "not wanting to fight your Nohr siblings".

The writing pushes neutral as your best choice, since (ideally) you would avoid having to fight your Nohr siblings while also avoiding going back to Nohr.

[Cinnamon Bun]

First off, you don't have to be patronizing. If you think my argument sucks, say it straight. I'm a big boy, I can take a little criticism.

And yes, why WOULD Mikoto employ people like Iago and Ganz? What possible justification could there be for her to place her trust in such people? And why would Ryouma continue to employ them after Mikoto's death? He's king in all but name, after all.

Oh nonono I'm sorry I was agreeing with you!! Aahaha I think I just did it in awkward ranty way. Hoshido /is/ too good and that's definitely the downfall for them. I find it frustrating that they're generally all pure and flawless. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

[Cinnamon Bun]

Well, maybe we could care about Hoshido because mothers are still important for some people. Maybe we could care about Hoshido because it's supposedly the route that's the least badly written. Maybe some people simply don't want to side with a man who is clearly crazy and evil

(and is actually a living corpse).

Don't get me wrong, I too loathe how they handled this whole thing (Hoshido is too pure, Nohr is fucked up to the core, making Kamui regret their choice every now and then, etc), but if you ask yourself why people would pick Hoshido, you should cool off a bit first.

Also I care about Aqua because I want dat extra turn.

Trueee, I'm sorry for sounding aggressive. Due to my own morals (and biases) I favour Nohr but the writing for said path is TERRIBLE and the only way to have any of it really make sense is to pretend that Kamui doesn't care for Hoshido. (Also yeah dancers are nice, but iirc Lazward can also dance??)

[Cinnamon Bun]

Nohr is unfortunately written in a way that there's no logical reason to side with it, even if you rationalize it as "not wanting to fight your Nohr siblings".

The writing pushes neutral as your best choice, since (ideally) you would avoid having to fight your Nohr siblings while also avoiding going back to Nohr.

See and that's where the story fails so hard. Kamui is so underwhelming, I wish they could be better characterized depending on which route you choose, instead of having all of the regret and stuff be more like "Yes these are the people who raised me this is ny kingdom I will fight for them!" It's okay to have Iago and Ganz being jerks, it's okay for Kamui to dislike them, it's not okay for him to be such a spineless naive coward about his decision that we pay legit money for. :<

[Cinnamon Bun]

Putting aside how Fates didn't have to feature both Ganz and MacBeth as dastardly fiends, you can warrant Hoshido having at least one character like either of them using these:

A. Is successful at what he does and so he has job security.

B. Has such clout in Hoshidan government (lands, troops, wealth, supporters and/or toadies) that he can't be removed without starting a tussle.

C. Neither Mikoto or Ryoma is an absolute monarch who can do whatever he or she wishes and get away with it. Both of their rules can be presented as more precarious than in the actual Fates.

You're acting like FE has never had rulers with shady lords under their reign.

Just look at Elincia in RD! I definitely think they could have easily given Hoshido a bit more of a moral greyness in some way or another.

[Zachmac]

I'd sit down and quote things one by one, but there's just too much for me to respond to. New threads can have a tendency to boom here, huh? Oh hey did someone mention the Last Airbender? I love that show!

I suppose I focused a bit too much about characters in the OP. I had intentionally only meant that to be a small mention that Nohr has more lunatics then Hoshido, but it ended up being half of what I complained about.

I heard that Nohr constantly makes you feel bad for picking it. That is perhaps the worst possible thing you can do with a route split.

Oh geez. That's just stupid. If they're going to do that, they should at least try to guilt you in Hoshido to.

This Hoshido bias is just annoying.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Zachmac

[Alazen]

Really though, I'm not seeing the problem with Mikoto ruling while Hoshidans like Ganz and Macbeth are hanging around. Does she have to be the shining paragon who does nothing wrong?

Edited August 18, 2015 by Alazen

[Gomez_Addams]

Really though, I'm not seeing the problem with Mikoto ruling while Hoshidans like Ganz and Macbeth are hanging around. Does she have to be the shining paragon who does nothing wrong?

I think there would be a problem if she made people like them her chief subordinates.

[Cinnamon Bun]

Really though, I'm not seeing the problem with Mikoto ruling while Hoshidans like Ganz and Macbeth are hanging around. Does she have to be the shining paragon who does nothing wrong?

At least she gets what she deserves for being such a passive Emmeryn carbon copy.