Is Nohr too evil (and is Hoshido too good)?

[Zachmac]

Even if Mikoto's advisers or subordinates or whatever aren't corrupt, you'd think there would still be a couple questionable people in the military, at least. Maybe a ruthless enemy war captain or something who you fight as a boss at one level in the Nohr route or something.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Zachmac

[Emperor Hardin]

I think there would be a problem if she made people like them her chief subordinates.

The thing is no one in Hoshido seems to be bad.

Not saying the bad Hoshidans in the military/royal/nobility have to be directly under her.

[Alazen]

I think there would be a problem if she made people like them her chief subordinates.

Who said she appointed anybody? Maybe they are lords of territories like Reptor and Langbart who are too entrenched to be fired? Maybe one of them actually gets results and so any shadiness is overlooked for that? Edited August 18, 2015 by Alazen

[Twylis]

I do think it's worth noting that like Nohr, Hoshido still gives out assassination assignments.

Belka and Saizou discuss it in their supports.

[Cinnamon Bun]

I do think it's worth noting that like Nohr, Hoshido still gives out assassination assignments.

Belka and Saizou discuss it in their supports.

That's kinda cool actually. Still shows there are people in Hoshido worth assassinating :O

[Alazen]

We shouldn't have to read supports to find anything that paints Hoshido less white.

[Cinnamon Bun]

We shouldn't have to read supports to find anything that paints Hoshido less white.

I'm also inclined to agree with you.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

We shouldn't have to read supports to find anything that paints Hoshido less white.

this isn't even factoring in that the support team and main story team most likely have different writers

[FrostyFireMage]

We shouldn't have to read supports to find anything that paints Hoshido less white.

why not

who honestly cares

[JupiterKnight]

People who don't like how biased the main story is towards Hoshido and the supports are ignored as a result.

And even then the Nohr support between Kamui and Aqua has him whining about having to kill vengeance fueled assassins just because they are Hoshidan.

[Alazen]

why not

who honestly cares

Apparently several posters here besides you.

You haven't actually debunked Fates having a Hoshido bias as opposed to making excuses for it.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Alazen

[FrostyFireMage]

You can see the difference between first-world and third-world countries - third-world countries have far more corruption (well far less obvious corruption anyway) due to a justice system that is next to non-existent.

Perhaps they thought that going out of their way to showcase Hoshido's dark side was unnecessary and added nothing to the story, or that certain problems with the society were a given and didn't need to be showcased?

Plus Takumi's actions aka a big part of the narrative are hardly pure and absent of sin.

Edited August 19, 2015 by FrostyFireMage

[Alazen]

Nice try, but assorted third-world regions are significantly connected to first and second world nations. They are not how they are in a vacuum.

It was an industrialized Japan that went on a conquest spree including so many war crimes that only Nazi Germany outdid it. It was Belgium that had King Leopold, infamous for his antics in the Congo. And other examples.

A game with better worldbuilding that wasn't focused on keeping Hoshido white could have explored such thing that would serve to grey it.

By the way, Takumi is repeatedly painted as damn wrong for having contempt towards Kamui (which is an issue with Kamui as a character) as opposed to being a war criminal. He's hardly on the same level as Ganz or Macbeth.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Alazen

[FrostyFireMage]

Now you're just being nitpicky.

[Alazen]

None of the posters here who are criticizing aspects of Fates are obligated to support Hoshido's portrayal against Nohr's.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Alazen

[RJWalker]

Gaiden and Thracia did so much better with the whole '2 nations of opposite ideals at war'. Especially Gaiden with how it turns everything around with King Rudolf's true plan.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

I think somebody already said that if this was a normal FE game, people would have less problems with how these countries are written, but since we are given choices and different paths, as a player I at least expect that both sides have pros and cons to joining them.

Hoshido's only negative traits are caricatures of spoiled, racist, evil and greedy daimyo who we never see, that are stereotypes always seen in fantasy Japanese lands.

Nohr on the other hand... what's the reason for joining them, on a moral ground? You don't go against the Nohrian siblings and Nohrian characters, and that's it. Everything you can do in Nohr you can do in Hoshido, but better. Hoshido has less casualties, Leon and Elise ally with you, even the Nohrian citizens are happier.

The more I read about this story, the more I get the impression it might be worse than Awakening's, and I am very easy on FE stories too. This is gonna be a huge clusterfuck.

[Alazen]

I'm convinced that if Fates had to do such a poor job keeping the conflict grey then Nohr should have been written with Kamui as an enthusiastic invader. Don't go out of your way to establish Nohr as the lower Path yet refuse to vilify Kamui.

[sperio]

Thanks for this topic. Like a lot of you, I was confused at why IS would intentionally make a consumer regret their purchase, and I've concluded that this is about selling a nonlinear FE v. a linear one. The devs want to take FE in an Awakening-style direction, and so the game is slanted to encourage the purchase of the path that offers that sort of gameplay. By making the player regret choosing Nohr path, they are hoping that the player will then go and purchase Birthright. It's all about making Birthright sell better.

That's their goal. But I think what they'll get instead is fan backlash for their bad story and senseless characters, and healthy sales of the Nohr version overseas. Moreover, if the popularity polls on this site and Reddit are any indication, it seems that Nohr will sell better than Hoshido in NA and Europe, or at least just as well. I hope so, because I love challenging gameplay and like linear stories over nonlinear ones.

Maybe I'm overthinking this. Perhaps I find it hard to believe that professional game designers and producers would make a game with a story so uninspired and confusing if they were actually earnest about making it a success. Nohr didn't receive as much marketing as Hoshido, either.

To answer the thread's question more directly, I think Nohr is "too bad," but I don't think it was as much of a mistake as one would first believe.

Edited August 19, 2015 by sperio

[Gomez_Addams]

Thanks for this topic. Like a lot of you, I was confused at why IS would intentionally make a consumer regret their purchase, and I've concluded that this is about selling a nonlinear FE v. a linear one. The devs want to take FE in an Awakening-style direction, and so the game is slanted to encourage the purchase of the path that offers that sort of gameplay. By making the player regret choosing Nohr path, they are hoping that the player will then go and purchase Birthright. It's all about making Birthright sell better.

That's their goal. But I think what they'll get instead is fan backlash for their bad story and senseless characters, and healthy sales of the Nohr version overseas. Moreover, if the popularity polls on this site and Reddit are any indication, it seems that Nohr will sell better than Hoshido in NA and Europe, or at least just as well. I hope so, because I love challenging gameplay and like linear stories over nonlinear ones.

Maybe I'm overthinking this. Perhaps I find it hard to believe that professional game designers and producers would make a game with a story so uninspired and confusing if they were actually earnest about making it a success. Nohr didn't receive as much marketing as Hoshido, either.

To answer the thread's question more directly, I think Nohr is "too bad," but I don't think it was as much of a mistake as one would first believe.

I think you're being a little paranoid, to be honest.

[Tsuky]

Thanks for this topic. Like a lot of you, I was confused at why IS would intentionally make a consumer regret their purchase, and I've concluded that this is about selling a nonlinear FE v. a linear one. The devs want to take FE in an Awakening-style direction, and so the game is slanted to encourage the purchase of the path that offers that sort of gameplay. By making the player regret choosing Nohr path, they are hoping that the player will then go and purchase Birthright. It's all about making Birthright sell better.

That's their goal. But I think what they'll get instead is fan backlash for their bad story and senseless characters, and healthy sales of the Nohr version overseas. Moreover, if the popularity polls on this site and Reddit are any indication, it seems that Nohr will sell better than Hoshido in NA and Europe, or at least just as well. I hope so, because I love challenging gameplay and like linear stories over nonlinear ones.

Maybe I'm overthinking this. Perhaps I find it hard to believe that professional game designers and producers would make a game with a story so uninspired and confusing if they were actually earnest about making it a success. Nohr didn't receive as much marketing as Hoshido, either.

To answer the thread's question more directly, I think Nohr is "too bad," but I don't think it was as much of a mistake as one would first believe.

Okay, I know most people (including me) are annoyed with the poor quality of the plot, especially in Nohr, as well as the black-and-white morality, but going so far as to say that there's a conspiracy among developers to purposefully shit on Nohr to glorify Hoshido is going overboard, and seeing similar comments scattered throughout the forum gets quite irritating. How does doing this help them in a business sense (which, in the end, is what's most important to game developers)? Guilting a few people into buying Hoshido seems less profitable than making two equally appealing games with different and interesting stories.

Also, I am genuinely curious, how did Nohr not receive as much marketing as Hoshido? From all the places I have seen the game promoted, the two versions were featured together.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Tsuky

[Alazen]

Of all the ways to make Hoshido more grey, there was making it more like pre-atomic bomb Japan.

[PuffPuff]

Well, maybe we could care about Hoshido because mothers are still important for some people. Maybe we could care about Hoshido because it's supposedly the route that's the least badly written. Maybe some people simply don't want to side with a man who is clearly crazy and evil

(and is actually a living corpse).

Don't get me wrong, I too loathe how they handled this whole thing (Hoshido is too pure, Nohr is fucked up to the core, making Kamui regret their choice every now and then, etc), but if you ask yourself why people would pick Hoshido, you should cool off a bit first.

Also I care about Aqua because I want dat extra turn.

Nohr Path Endgame

That explains why he turns into slime in Ch 27.

At least she gets what she deserves for being such a passive Emmeryn carbon copy.

Why those types always have to die? -.-

By the way, Takumi is repeatedly painted as damn wrong for having contempt towards Kamui (which is an issue with Kamui as a character) as opposed to being a war criminal. He's hardly on the same level as Ganz or Macbeth.

Last Chapter Nohr

Even though he's the last boss on Nohr's path that you want to off him in your Hoshido run if you did Nohr first.

I think somebody already said that if this was a normal FE game, people would have less problems with how these countries are written, but since we are given choices and different paths, as a player I at least expect that both sides have pros and cons to joining them.

Hoshido's only negative traits are caricatures of spoiled, racist, evil and greedy daimyo who we never see, that are stereotypes always seen in fantasy Japanese lands.

Nohr on the other hand... what's the reason for joining them, on a moral ground? You don't go against the Nohrian siblings and Nohrian characters, and that's it. Everything you can do in Nohr you can do in Hoshido, but better. Hoshido has less casualties, Leon and Elise ally with you, even the Nohrian citizens are happier.

The more I read about this story, the more I get the impression it might be worse than Awakening's, and I am very easy on FE stories too. This is gonna be a huge clusterfuck.

Hoshido spoils you too much while Nohr gives you the hard reality of life.

Nohr>>>Hoshido.

Makes me glad since I don't want to kill either of them.