Weapon Triangle questions!

[Psyruby]

It ain't about dodge tanking so much as it is other factors that have me convinced that Swordmasters have seen better days, really. Namely, Swordmasters in Sword of Seals had 30 crit, making them THE definitive critical class (so did Berserkers, but in that game, Berserkers suffered from axes having awful accuracy and low skill, meaning they were a gamble).

That's hard to compare then. One game they have +30 Crit which means they are more about damage dealing, another game they have +30 Avoid which means they are about dodge tanking in battles. Also, you couldn't use both Str and Magic in Sword of Seals. One of the main benefits of this Swordmaster is the fact that it hardly has to compensate any attack power to use the Levin Sword for attacking weak Resistance units(tho they do have to compensate their avoid). This is like comparing oranges to apples.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Psyruby

[Shadow Mir]

That's hard to compare then. One game they have +30 Crit which means they are more about damage dealing, another game they have +30 Avoid which means they are about dodge tanking in battles. Also, you couldn't use both Str and Magic in Sword of Seals. One of the main benefits of this Swordmaster is the fact that it hardly has to compensate any attack power to use the Levin Sword for attacking weak Resistance units. This is like comparing oranges to apples.

In a sense, you're right. However, being as I haven't played the game, I can't know how useful having a good dodge tank is in Fates, as opposed to Sword of Seals, where you WILL need a Swordmaster if you don't want to spend a long time trying to kill bosses because weapon accuracy is lower, to say nothing of throne bonuses. Also, Levin Swords, and magic weapons in general, aren't the types of weapons I'd want to build my strategy around in this game for the most part...

Edited August 18, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Psyruby]

In a sense, you're right. However, being as I haven't played the game, I can't know how useful having a good dodge tank is in Fates, as opposed to Sword of Seals, where you WILL need a Swordmaster if you don't want to spend a long time trying to kill bosses because weapon accuracy is lower, to say nothing of throne bonuses. Also, Levin Swords, and magic weapons in general, aren't the types of weapons I'd want to build my strategy around in this game for the most part...

Personally I like Magic physical weapons in this game. They are rewarding your character for "multi-classing." They are much stronger than physical ranged weapons, don't come with the "no double attack" clause or the "Enemy Attack Threshold +5" clause. Which means you have a very powerful weapon attacking from 2 spaces away, which can double, not give the opponent a major advantage, and that can still defensively attack the opponent. The downsides are pretty negligible in comparison. You have 20 less avoid and you can't crit or use skills. Most units won't even care about the critical clause, some units don't have offensive proc skills, and the avoid is a reasonable price to pay for completely avoiding damage on your turn by attacking from 2 away. This isn't even getting into statistical advantages of deciding whether to attack with Str or Mag compared to the opponent's Def or Res.

EDIT: Yeah, only certain characters can use them, but the ones that can have a big advantage on the battlefield.

EDIT: EDIT: Sorry folks for veering off topic, but I love discussing the pros and cons of Fates' weapons.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Psyruby

[Leif]

In light of this, how are the White/Dark Blood classes respectively? How do they compare with the other classes? I'd assume they would be really good on the Avatar since he/she gets the +4 bonuses to the majority of his/her stats with the Final Yatogami.

[astrophys]

Well, Final Yatogami's +4 bonuses applies as long as its in your inventory from what I've read, so that's not a unique bonus to White/Dark Blood. And even then, any sword-using class can utilize Final Yato.

[Psyruby]

In light of this, how are the White/Dark Blood classes respectively? How do they compare with the other classes? I'd assume they would be really good on the Avatar since he/she gets the +4 bonuses to the majority of his/her stats with the Final Yatogami.

Well....they are good but not overly good as classes.

White Blood has the distinction of being the sturdiest staff user in the game. 60 HP, 31 Def, and 28 Res is pretty good defensively. They have access to nukes in the form of Dragonstones also. Otherwise, they are your typical strong physical class with access to swords.

Dark Blood is pretty dang sturdy himself for being a Mixed class. 60 HP, 29 Def, 32 Res. Now.. I would say the Dark Knight is slightly better at being a sturdy mage with swords and magic, but the Dark Blood is also at 32 speed instead of 27 speed(as to Dark Knight) and 30 speed(for White Blood), so the boost from Yato Final does push him to double more units than the White Blood by a significant margin. Overall, another good class to be.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Psyruby

[Shadow Mir]

On that note, what were the bonuses for having WTA with S rank again? I forgot, and forgot to ask in the confusion.

[Psyruby]

On that note, what were the bonuses for having WTA with S rank again? I forgot, and forgot to ask in the confusion.

That's the only thing I don't know about S ranks. I'll ask around the weapon thread and other areas, but based on how the S rank weapon bonus increases, I won't be surprised if it is a +1 Attack and +5 Hitrate increase. Meaning it would be around +/-2 Mt and +/-20 Hitrate.

[Wayward Alchemist]

And just how many units are there with access to S rank classes that can use magic weapons even remotely decently...?? Not very many, I'd imagine.

Trueblade: 28 Mag, one point higher than Falcon Warrior and the same as White Blood

Holy Lancer: 25 Mag, two points less than Falcon Warrior

Berserker: 25 Mag, same as Holy Lancer

And plenty of Physical parents that pass on S rank classes (Ryoma, Arthur, Charlotte, Hana, Hinata, Takumi) have neutral Mag, effectively +1 Mag to their child. As long as they marry at least another Neutral parent, their child will have a positive Magic modifier.

[Psyruby]

Trueblade: 28 Mag, one point higher than Falcon Warrior and the same as White Blood

Holy Lancer: 25 Mag, two points less than Falcon Warrior

Berserker: 25 Mag, same as Holy Lancer

And plenty of Physical parents that pass on S rank classes (Ryoma, Arthur, Charlotte, Hana, Hinata, Takumi) have neutral Mag, effectively +1 Mag to their child. As long as they marry at least another Neutral parent, their child will have a positive Magic modifier.

You can't really look at Magic maximums of the class and parent alone. Holy Lancer has a 9 point difference between Str and Mag, and the Berserker has a 15 point difference. But even bigger factor in game than those is growths. So only certain characters should be mixed units, like I explained above.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Psyruby

[astrophys]

Yes, growths obviously will be more important for in-game… caps only matter after lots of grinding if its a stat you aren't that strong in.

Most of the physical units don't have exactly stellar MAG growths, although there are exceptions. For example, someone like Ryouma/Shinonome each have 0% magic growths (although the latter will be affected by his mother, so he might get a non-zero growth). And Trueblade is only a 5% magic growth class… with a 0% personal +5% class growth for a total 5% magic growth, they aren't join to be using magic weapons effectively anytime soon.

Contrast something like a +MAG avatar with a flaw that doesn't hurt magic. 50% MAG growth. Indeed, if we did something like +MAG/-DEF (as it doesn't hurt STR either) it would be 45% STR and 50% MAG growth, whereas if we accepted a small hit to both STR and MAG growths with a -LCK flaw so as to not sacrifice defensive stats, speed, or skill we'd have 40% STR and 45% MAG.

This is something that could conceivably use magic weapon more effectively…. a Trueblade (+MAG/-LCK) would have 50% growths in both STR and MAG, while a +MAG/-DEF would allow for 55% growths in both stats.

Also note that +MAG also gives you +3 starting magic right off the bat, further helping nay efforts to run hybrid.

[Psyruby]

Yes, growths obviously will be more important for in-game… caps only matter after lots of grinding if its a stat you aren't that strong in.

Most of the physical units don't have exactly stellar MAG growths, although there are exceptions. For example, someone like Ryouma/Shinonome each have 0% magic growths (although the latter will be affected by his mother, so he might get a non-zero growth). And Trueblade is only a 5% magic growth class… with a 0% personal +5% class growth for a total 5% magic growth, they aren't join to be using magic weapons effectively anytime soon.

Contrast something like a +MAG avatar with a flaw that doesn't hurt magic. 50% MAG growth. Indeed, if we did something like +MAG/-DEF (as it doesn't hurt STR either) it would be 45% STR and 50% MAG growth, whereas if we accepted a small hit to both STR and MAG growths with a -LCK flaw so as to not sacrifice defensive stats, speed, or skill we'd have 40% STR and 45% MAG.

This is something that could conceivably use magic weapon more effectively…. a Trueblade (+MAG/-LCK) would have 50% growths in both STR and MAG, while a +MAG/-DEF would allow for 55% growths in both stats.

Also note that +MAG also gives you +3 starting magic right off the bat, further helping nay efforts to run hybrid.

Saizou and Odin are probably the best examples seeing as Avatar is kinda obviously malleable. They both have amazingly even Str/Mag growths.

[PuffPuff]

In a sense, you're right. However, being as I haven't played the game, I can't know how useful having a good dodge tank is in Fates, as opposed to Sword of Seals, where you WILL need a Swordmaster if you don't want to spend a long time trying to kill bosses because weapon accuracy is lower, to say nothing of throne bonuses. Also, Levin Swords, and magic weapons in general, aren't the types of weapons I'd want to build my strategy around in this game for the most part...

Oh.

Well...the things that were saying are to take into account. Because mechanics are thrown in this time to make your gameplay experience miserable even for advanced players. As Counter is still broken with no nerfing and that Venom, Deadly Breath, status reduction effects that some attacks causes puts the gamebreaking to a close.

...And Levin Swords suck this time!

Personally I like Magic physical weapons in this game. They are rewarding your character for "multi-classing." They are much stronger than physical ranged weapons, don't come with the "no double attack" clause or the "Enemy Attack Threshold +5" clause. Which means you have a very powerful weapon attacking from 2 spaces away, which can double, not give the opponent a major advantage, and that can still defensively attack the opponent. The downsides are pretty negligible in comparison. You have 20 less avoid and you can't crit or use skills. Most units won't even care about the critical clause, some units don't have offensive proc skills, and the avoid is a reasonable price to pay for completely avoiding damage on your turn by attacking from 2 away. This isn't even getting into statistical advantages of deciding whether to attack with Str or Mag compared to the opponent's Def or Res.

EDIT: Yeah, only certain characters can use them, but the ones that can have a big advantage on the battlefield.

EDIT: EDIT: Sorry folks for veering off topic, but I love discussing the pros and cons of Fates' weapons.

The Bolt Axes that aren't hardly nerfed which further makes Berserkers number one to use in this game!

------

Only thing that is irritating is their low HP to further add fuel to the fire of difficulty. -.-

Edited August 19, 2015 by Princess_Florina

[Psyruby]

Oh.

Well...the things that were saying are to take into account. Because mechanics are thrown in this time to make your gameplay experience miserable even for advanced players. As Counter is still broken with no nerfing and that Venom and Deadly Breath puts the gamebreaking to a close.

...And Levin Swords suck this time!

The Bolt Axes that aren't hardly nerfed which further makes Berserkers number one to use in this game!

------

Only thing that is irritating is their low HP to further add fuel to the fire of difficulty. -.-

Counter isn't broken.... it got nerfed. It only activates when the person with Counter is attacked by an adjacent enemy. Also Venom and Deadly Breath are hardly broken. They can't kill, and most enemies don't have these skills.

Every skill in this game isn't broken by itself. It usually takes 2-3 skills to combo into something to be evil.

Also, Berserker, low HP, what? Berserkers have the highest HP in the game with Generals. Also, Levin Swords are still great. It's power level was hardly reduced compared to other weapons.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Psyruby

[PuffPuff]

Counter isn't broken.... it got nerfed. It only activates when the person with Counter is attacked by an adjacent enemy. Also Venom and Deadly Breath are hardly broken. They can't kill, and most enemies don't have these skills.

Every skill in this game isn't broken by itself. It usually takes 2-3 skills to combo into something to be evil.

Also, Berserker, low HP, what? Berserkers have the highest HP in the game with Generals. Also, Levin Swords are still great. It's power level was hardly reduced compared to other weapons.

Something they love to throw in for escaping chapters. :/

Ch21 Nohr is an example.

Oh.

Haven't used one yet, though I should in my Invisible Kingdom(3rd run) run as there are none on the Hoshido path (2nd run). Levin Swords don't activate skills like the Bolt Axes do. but...with the low resistances that lots of enemies still has are the only times that they are to take into consideration. Especially against the Golems. :D

Edited August 19, 2015 by Princess_Florina

[Psyruby]

Something they love to throw in for escaping chapters. :/

Ch21 Nohr is an example.

Oh.

Haven't used one yet, though I should in my Invisible Kingdom(3rd run) run as there are none on the Hoshido path (2nd run). Levin Swords don't activate skills like the Bolt Axes do. but...with the low resistances that lots of enemies still has are the only times that they are to take into consideration. Especially against the Golems. :D

Wait a sec, do you know for a fact that Bolt Axes can activate skills but can't crit or are you just trusting what is on Vincent's site? I"m pretty sure that is a mistake and they can't activate skills or crit. (It would be very strange if that was the only weapon that made a distinction for "can't crit or use skills")

However, the advantage of attacking 2 spaces away and still being able to defend from a direct attack shouldn't be underestimated. If a unit has less than a 4 point advantage between Str and Mag, the Magic weapons(like Levin Swords) are better for most situations just cause of that 1-2 range.

EDIT: A great example is Counter itself. You can attack someone with Counter with a magic weapon, and not suffer damage due to being 2 spaces away, but still be able to attack them when they attack you, and their counter won't go off.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Psyruby

[PuffPuff]

Wait a sec, do you know for a fact that Bolt Axes can activate skills but can't crit or are you just trusting what is on Vincent's site? I"m pretty sure that is a mistake and they can't activate skills or crit. (It would be very strange if that was the only weapon that made a distinction for "can't crit or use skills")

However, the advantage of attacking 2 spaces away and still being able to defend from a direct attack shouldn't be underestimated. If a unit has less than a 4 point advantage between Str and Mag, the Magic weapons(like Levin Swords) are better for most situations just cause of that 1-2 range.

EDIT: A great example is Counter itself. You can attack someone with Counter with a magic weapon, and not suffer damage due to being 2 spaces away, but still be able to attack them when they attack you, and their counter won't go off.

Figures since they have a magic Counter now that only activates with magical related things.

[Psyruby]

Figures since they have a magic Counter now that only activates with magical related things.

Yep, that's pretty much the reason. Tho Magic Counter and Counter still have issues with Bows and Kunai. Gotta have that Defensive Formation, Counter, Magic Counter, Aegis, Sol set up.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Psyruby

[GoXDS]

well since it seems that nobody with the game has checked for S Rank WTA, let's check vids!

26 Str Ryouma w/ 11 Mt Raijin Katana vs 27 Def Camilla with Axe equipped

26+11+4(Rank bonus)+2(WTA estimate)+2(Ryouma's personal)-27 = 18, forecast says 18

27 Str Camilla with 12 Mt Camilla's Sexy-axe vs 15 Def Ryouma with Raijin Katana

27+12-2(WTD estimate)-15-2(Ryouma's personal) = 20, battle forecast says 20

Camilla has 136 Hit vs Ryouma's 77 Avoid +30 because Flowing Strike

136-77-30-20(WTD estimate) = 9. battle forecast says 9%

so, the safe assumption of +/-2 Atk and +/-20 Hit was correct

[Psyruby]

well since it seems that nobody with the game has checked for S Rank WTA, let's check vids!

26 Str Ryouma w/ 11 Mt Raijin Katana vs 27 Def Camilla with Axe equipped

26+11+4(Rank bonus)+2(WTA estimate)+2(Ryouma's personal)-27 = 18, forecast says 18

27 Str Camilla with 12 Mt Camilla's Sexy-axe vs 15 Def Ryouma with Raijin Katana

27+12-2(WTD estimate)-15-2(Ryouma's personal) = 20, battle forecast says 20

Camilla has 136 Hit vs Ryouma's 77 Avoid +30 because Flowing Strike

136-77-30-20(WTD estimate) = 9. battle forecast says 9%

so, the safe assumption of +/-2 Atk and +/-20 Hit was correct

****! That means if the S rank classes carry their Reverse Weapon they get +4 Atk, +40 Hit against their normal weakness and their normal weakness gets -4 Atk, -40 Hit. Like... that's a significant swing to the point that if they double the enemy, the enemy is probably dead. The best part is that the enemy can't get the S rank advantage unless they are an S ranker. Which means they are stuck with +/-2 Atk, +/-30 Hit when they retaliate with your new weakness(it might be even less cause of weapon ranks being different), nothing to scoff at, but it's significantly different than the advantage the S ranks get.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Psyruby

[Shadow Mir]

****! That means if the S rank classes carry their Reverse Weapon they get +4 Atk, +40 Hit against their normal weakness and their normal weakness gets -4 Atk, -40 Hit. Like... that's a significant swing to the point that if they double the enemy, the enemy is probably dead. The best part is that the enemy can't get the S rank advantage unless they are an S ranker. Which means they are stuck with +/-2 Atk, +/-30 Hit, nothing to scoff at, but it's significantly difference than the advantage the S ranks get.

I'd imagine that that gets cancelled out if the other side has a reverse weapon too.

[Psyruby]

I'd imagine that that gets cancelled out if the other side has a reverse weapon too.

Yes. It does, and then REALLY silly stuff happens. Cause the WTA is doubled... twice... so quadrupled. So A ranks(if advantage) would get +/-4 Atk, +/-60 Hit, and S ranks(if advantage) would get +/-8 Atk, +/-80 Hit.

EDIT: B ranks would get +/-4 Atk, +/-40 Hit.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Psyruby

[charlesbarkley]

Wait a sec, do you know for a fact that Bolt Axes can activate skills but can't crit or are you just trusting what is on Vincent's site? I"m pretty sure that is a mistake and they can't activate skills or crit. (It would be very strange if that was the only weapon that made a distinction for "can't crit or use skills")

You can't activate skills on any of the magic weapons. The confusion comes from the devs using different terminology than the fanbase. Even with those drawbacks though they are still hands down the best weapons for EP mobbing in the main game.

[Shadow Mir]

Yes. It does, and then REALLY silly stuff happens. Cause the WTA is doubled... twice... so quadrupled. So A ranks(if advantage) would get +/-4 Atk, +/-60 Hit, and S ranks(if advantage) would get +/-8 Atk, +/-80 Hit.

EDIT: B ranks would get +/-4 Atk, +/-40 Hit.

Uhh, no. That, too, would probably get canceled out as well.

[Psyruby]

Uhh, no. That, too, would probably get canceled out as well.

I'm not so sure about that. That's a secondary effect, not related to reversing the triangle. I mean, it may still be only double, but I doubt it is fully negated(kinda like Flamboyant not doubling its effect if you and your enemy have it). This question is going to be almost impossible to answer for anyone. They'd have to find someone else with the game, start a PvP match between each other, and then both carry a Reverse Weapon on a character to find out. Cause I highly doubt any story mode enemy carries a reverse weapon.