Are supports a flawed method of character development?

[Quintessence]

Fire emblem is a game that offers the player a variety of characters that differ in stats in order to clear each chapter you face, and thus, clear the game.

The support system is just a way to 'give life' to these characters and is, basically, a plus to the game that somewhat impacts the game's replay value.

FE games have, mostly, large casts and it is hard to make all of them important to the game in terms of characterization. Reducing the cast to less than 10 characters will make FE an RPG or something alike. So what I think the series should do is make the game bigger and more complex, managing groups of characters separately and develop them right there, bringing up some interesting characterization to some characters that actually impacts the main plot or gives the player the option to approach the main plot in different ways: like, if you use a unit in a particular chapter or that unit does something in particular, then certain scenario happens (which is nothing more than the main story having branches, routes, etc.).

(I believe) RD tried to do this by doing the game by parts, but it was don terribly cuz it is the game with the worst support system, as much as it is my favorite game. On the other hand, the support system was really good in GBA era and PoR but it still lacks consistency and has some flaws. But the support system isn't inherently flawed, it just needs to be handled carefully.

[Radiant head]

The thing with PoR's approach is that well, it was more limited. Be they time limits or locking out supports until a certain point even with both characters recruited. PoR's approach doesn't really go with Awakening's "No time limits unless the pairing has Chrom, Avatar can marry every other base playable unit who isn't his or her child, Gaiden style maps'' style.

Yeah this is my problem with PoR supports. They are way to limiting. To the point where it hampers gameplay - some characters have zero useful support affinities.

I prefer Radiant Dawn's support system from a gameplay perspective (obviously it's nonexistent from a story perspective, and people are right to criticize that). Awakening seemed to sort of be like a compromise of the two. Lots of support options, but they're kind of half-baked.

[Snowy_One]

The problem is that the game features perma-death. I.E. If you have two lovebirds with engaging backstories about to S-rank and the RNG goddess decides you haven't paid her enough and kills one, you'd be left unable to explore their story any further. If they were plot-important that means that the entire story would basically have to change. In a support that's less... significant.

I would very much like each character to get more focus. Like maybe a mini-chapter (short, probably easy, may not even be threatening) to them? I mean it CAN be done. Just... is it worth it?

[Sasori]

I do like the idea of base conversations returning, but I don't want think Supports are all that flawed. Base conversations gives less important characters a chance to react to whats happening in the story and thats great, but I don't think focus on either backstory or more mundane things such as hobbies is a bad thing for supports. Its an oppurtinity to show what the characters are like when they aren't thinking on duty.

[Rxmonste]

Look at it from a designer's perspective and think how differently you would've made character development work. I mean, characters can die in Fire Emblem, forever, so the only compromise is the supports. If you add side quests or story events that flesh out their story, that's a lot of extra work for someone who may have gotten the character killed in battle and would've never seen it. The only other compromise is making all of the dead characters "Retired" like the mothers in Awakening (I noticed that for some characters in Blazing Sword, too), but that just kills the emotional impact a player feels for losing a character that's dear to them.

I agree that they're not the best method of character development, but it's definitely the most convenient for Intelligent Systems. The biggest takeaway from this is that Support is what makes Fire Emblem what it is, take Support away and it'll never be the same, no matter how great your gameplay is.

All the more infuriating if they had a marriage support before they kicked the bucket, and their spouse acts like nothing ever happened.

I'll admit, this is a point where the developers probably got lazy, that's extra writing and programming that they didn't wanna go through. More so in writing depending on how you present the reaction. But point is they probably assumed that most of the Awakening players were playing Casual mode since there was a lot of newcomers.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

I agree that they're not the best method of character development, but it's definitely the most convenient for Intelligent Systems. The biggest takeaway from this is that Support is what makes Fire Emblem what it is, take Support away and it'll never be the same, no matter how great your gameplay is.

Going by this logic FE 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 and 11 should not be proper FE titles... and neither TearRing Saga. I'm sorry but I can't accept it.

It's all a matter of different tastes if the older, support-less games are playable or not, but they still are FE games at core and all about them is FE.

I swear, I love Supports, but, for me, a Fire Emblem they do not make. I played and enjoyed many other FEs that don't have Supports or a proper Support System, and I found them engaging and interesting regardless. I wouldn't be angry if the next FE didn't have supports (it's really unlikely though), as long as the game is fun and of good quality.

I'll admit, this is a point where the developers probably got lazy, that's extra writing and programming that they didn't wanna go through. More so in writing depending on how you present the reaction. But point is they probably assumed that most of the Awakening players were playing Casual mode since there was a lot of newcomers.

This was either laziness or lack of time on their part, because in some of the previous games, certain couples reacted to their lover's death, or had their death quote changed after marriage/an A support. It was nothing special, but it was something.

[Rxmonste]

I swear, I love Supports, but, for me, a Fire Emblem they do not make. I played and enjoyed many other FEs that don't have Supports or a proper Support System, and I found them engaging and interesting regardless. I wouldn't be angry if the next FE didn't have supports (it's really unlikely though), as long as the game is fun and of good quality.

I agree with you, my original statement was for the majority of players and especially newcomers, I should've made that clearer.

I personally know friends that like Fire Emblem as a game but don't find it all that special without Support. I personally disagree with that, too. No matter how much I hear it, the series presented great gameplay in the forefront and then Support for a nice, relaxing time killer. I still don't want it taken away unless it's replaced by a better system.

[electricwolf]

It's entirely possible to have an FE game without support conversations. Whether all fans would enjoy that (to the same level as games with support convos) is a different question and I'm not going to get into old vs. new fans as it seems every thread has a time limit before someone insults either of those groups.

Character development is definitely a feature that (if done adequately) adds to the game experience for a large number of players. With the number of variables regarding the games and their related sale numbers and scores it's impossible to make a valid claim as to whether the presence of support conversations affects sales.

Support conversations can be kind of a mixed bag. In the C - B - A support structure there's not always a large amount exploration done into the characters beyond a few events or relations that shape who they are. Even supporting most of the rest of the cast in games like Awakening you can go through multiple supports of one character and learn scant different information between them. If one pairing reveals a lot about one character then the other is probably not getting much development.

S supports can seem a bit forced especially considering that the player only really sees (at a minimum) three prior interactions between the characters before suddenly they're hitched.

Base conversations were something that I enjoyed, especially the rewards for some of them, and do seem more appropriate than talking on the battlefield, but in FE10 I couldn't help but feel that there wasn't a huge amount of them. Of course there's always a quality vs. quantity debate but with the limited restrictions to get the conversations there's not a huge amount of variability between replays of the game.

There's definitely room to improve the way that characters develop over time but in their current implementation are by no means 'bad'.

[Paper Jam]

But its really in Eirika's route it makes sense (what Joshua is actually trying to lowkey suggest to Gerik) only because Eirika's route deals with Jehanna's queen (and Joshua's real identity).

It's mentioned in Ephraim's route too, albeit quite briefly: Joshua mentioned in his conversation with Caellach that they would often get into fights, and in particular that Caellach would often start fights with Joshua over who would become king. (Granted, he didn't say of what kingdom, but it had been established earlier that Caellach and Joshua were both from Jehanna.)

And it isn't exactly a secret in Ephraim's route that Caellach has a history with Joshua.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Paper Jam