Unit Practicality Thread

[arvilino]

Most of the players whom I've spoken to who have played the game on Lunatic (I myself haven't played it) have asserted that pair-up still tends to be the superior strategy overall, just not as overwhelmingly superior as it had been before.

If this is true, then asking for a pair-up is essentially irrelevant as we can presume that most of your units will tend to use pair-up anyways. Rally Luck would only be used in more extreme cases like Berserkers (who have inherent crit bonuses, which would make nulling out everything tricky to begin with).

Remember, 14 luck (7 dodge) + guard stance (+5 dodge) + goddess icon or luck tonic (+2 dodge) nulls out the crits of other enemy units like the high-skill Heroes (14). No Yato required.

Berserkers and other heavy crit bonus classes seem to be meant to be difficult to avoid facing a crit chance for most characters. I mean, 21 crit would need 42 luck to null out; you simply won't get that high (seeing that the highest luck classes have 35). You simply aren't nulling that out without assistance.

Bronze weapons also exist if you're scared of crits as a substitute for Yato's +10 crit evade, although due to their low attack power I don't think they're a great option.

Pair Up is most effective on your strongest units because any extra points(e.g. speed, defense,etc.) and Guard Stance allows a character to take a lot more punishment(and tanking/drawing enemy groups) and a paired up unit is going to be statistically superior to an unpaired in all but the consequences of using 2 units as a single unit. But you'd want your other units unpaired to more mop up enemy groups, there's quite a lot of skills for classes or personal skills to boost damage taken or reduce damage for surrounding allies.

For example Felicia may have Demoiselle(-2 damage taken) and Battle Command(+2 damage dealt, - 2 damage taken). Which is essentially +4 Defense, +4 Resistance, + 2 Strength, + 2 Magic(albeit not effecting staves) to male allies within 2 range while she's unpaired which is 12 points of stat boosts compared to the 13 she provides with an S-rank(excluding to Corrin) pair-up. Take into account Elise's personal and Camilla's stacking with this is there's some massive bonuses you're missing out if you're instead making these characters support units in a pair(and with the exception of Camilla they are impractical as lead units).

You'll probably have a couple best units paired up but I'd say most units will want to be unpaired most of the time unless the situation calls for a specific pair up(e.g. reaching a specific strength/speed/defense/luck threshold or ferrying and dropping units, fitting your units in a smaller number of spaces,etc) because a pair up's statboost in Fates may not even change how many hits you kill an enemy in or how many your unit will survive and those "Aura skills" like Battle Command means having unpaired units nearby can make your paired up units even stronger.

Edited December 4, 2015 by arvilino

[Shadow Mir]

When you can beat a chapter, whatever strategy you use can be good if you say it is good.

I like Attack Stance more, however. Too many actions in player phase results in unnecessary overkill.

I have to use some worse units/classes because they can easily do so.

Well, I can agree that not everyone may get the chance to contribute in a given player phase, I'd rather have too many than not enough.

Most of the players whom I've spoken to who have played the game on Lunatic (I myself haven't played it) have asserted that pair-up still tends to be the superior strategy overall, just not as overwhelmingly superior as it had been before.

If this is true, then asking for a pair-up is essentially irrelevant as we can presume that most of your units will tend to use pair-up anyways. Rally Luck would only be used in more extreme cases like Berserkers (who have inherent crit bonuses, which would make nulling out everything tricky to begin with).

Remember, 14 luck (7 dodge) + guard stance (+5 dodge) + goddess icon or luck tonic (+2 dodge) nulls out the crits of other enemy units like the high-skill Heroes (14). No Yato required.

Berserkers and other heavy crit bonus classes seem to be meant to be difficult to avoid facing a crit chance for most characters. I mean, 21 crit would need 42 luck to null out; you simply won't get that high (seeing that the highest luck classes have 35). You simply aren't nulling that out without assistance.

Bronze weapons also exist if you're scared of crits as a substitute for Yato's +10 crit evade, although due to their low attack power I don't think they're a great option.

Well, it's true that killers and crit boosted classes (or at least Berserkers) are going to be practically impossible to nullify completely. But at the same time, I agree with arvilino that the consequences of using 2 units as a single unit are much more pronounced in this game as opposed to Awakening. And also, needing a specific weapon to make up for lacking crit evade has its fair share of problems - most weapons that boost crit evade are either weak (bronze and joke weapons) or impractical (Dragonstones).

Edited December 4, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[astrophys]

Fair enough… you two raise a good point…. I was a bit too sweeping with my statements/interpretations. I offer a retraction/apology.

Edited December 4, 2015 by astrophys

[Wayward Alchemist]

So what skills other than Samurai skills would Trueblade Corrin want?

[Ownagepuffs]

TB Kamui already has everything they would want. Two procs, a faire, and then some bonus skills like Flowing Strike and Draconic curse.

[avengerfive]

Who gets the legendary Boots? I usually give them to the dancers in previous games and it works out pretty nicely. Azura with the Boots and a +mov pair-up gets about 7 move which seems really nice. Kamui can be an option too. Or maybe you want to save them for endgame rescuing strats.

[fureshyu]

Who gets the legendary Boots? I usually give them to the dancers in previous games and it works out pretty nicely. Azura with the Boots and a +mov pair-up gets about 7 move which seems really nice. Kamui can be an option too. Or maybe you want to save them for endgame rescuing strats.

I personally gave them to Famui (unknowingly because I didn't have my game patched at that time) But if I had the choice, Azura would make the best candidate for the boots since she can easily catch up with say +7 movement units when they need sing and even +8 units. Otherwise, its hard for her to traverse the map because by late game, other units will have at least +6 mov when she only has +5, keeping her in her Songstress class.

[Wayward Alchemist]

So which of the children are the most cost effective to have? Like I think Deere is impractical because he naturally leans way towards the Physical side but his base class and stat kinda make it hard for him to get going, which is really what Lunatic is and always has been about. I think Kanna in any form would be fine because Corrin will always have pumped-up stats among first gen characters and therefore so will Kanna amongst children. Also almost any child that has a self-sufficient class tree like most of the S-rank classes and Cavalier.

[Shadow Mir]

So which of the children are the most cost effective to have? Like I think Deere is impractical because he naturally leans way towards the Physical side but his base class and stat kinda make it hard for him to get going, which is really what Lunatic is and always has been about. I think Kanna in any form would be fine because Corrin will always have pumped-up stats among first gen characters and therefore so will Kanna amongst children. Also almost any child that has a self-sufficient class tree like most of the S-rank classes and Cavalier.

Exactly what do you mean by "self-sufficient class tree"?

[astrophys]

Approaching from another perspective, I'll list off some of the kids who bring you certain limited supply or otherwise notable items upon recruitment… in a few cases, maybe it will be an extra consideration of "oh, if I go for this child, I get this cool weapon thrown in with them".

Deere - Physic

Matoi - Swordslayer Naginata

Seigbert - Javelin

Ignis - Javelin

Velour - Guard Beastone

Lutz - Hand Axe

Ophelia - at end of level, Missletainn [personal tome]

The Javelins and Hand Axes are technically limited supply items, but you get 10 of them from the Armory, plus anything your characters are recruited with, so they aren't that limited…. limiting the prior list to more limited items

Deere - Physic [5 in the store; value: 3000 G]

Matoi - Swordslayer Nagainata [2 in store; value: 3400 G]

Velour - Guard Beaststone [not purchasable]

Ophelia - Missletainn [not purchasable]

So, these characters might offer a slight extra incentive thanks to their items.

Please correct me if I made mistakes.

[Tooru]

Missletainn doesn't matter. Horse God and Reverse God are important.

No children are effective. When we are thinking about caps nothing is effective.

Even those who outclass their father on stats still have problems with weapon ranks and supports.

[Wayward Alchemist]

Can you Silence allied NPCs? If so preserving Deere's Psychic might be worth it if you have high Mov units that can haul ass to where Deere is before the Generals fall.

[Ownagepuffs]

Who gets the legendary Boots? I usually give them to the dancers in previous games and it works out pretty nicely. Azura with the Boots and a +mov pair-up gets about 7 move which seems really nice. Kamui can be an option too. Or maybe you want to save them for endgame rescuing strats.

Azura.

Can you Silence allied NPCs? If so preserving Deere's Psychic might be worth it if you have high Mov units that can haul ass to where Deere is before the Generals fall.

Can't silence your own dudes. However, Deere only uses Physic to heal your units if he is in range. He uses either mend or the Hoshido staff on the Generals/Knights.

[avengerfive]

Could Hero!Silas be a thing on Lunatic? It seems like it would give him a nice boost in speed.

[Tooru]

Could Hero!Silas be a thing on Lunatic? It seems like it would give him a nice boost in speed.

Luna's HP&Def + Lazward's Str&Skl + Open Assault make Silas a better Hero than both.

For Paladin vs Hero, it is hard to say whether +1 Spd or +2 Mov is better.

If you want a Brave Sword user, Hero has much higher Skl so he can keep using swords without worrying about hit rates.

Paladin may prefer Lances sometimes, but that is fine if you don't need Silas to hit any A ranks.

Hero doesn't have weakness: this is good for Nohr 19 and 26.

Great Knight is much different and not easy to be compared with.

[Ownagepuffs]

Could Hero!Silas be a thing on Lunatic? It seems like it would give him a nice boost in speed.

Merc Silas is the same deal as Lancer Hinoka and Fighter Belka. It's a good temporary affair for growth padding and picking up skills (open assault + patient assurance is a pretty sick combo), and practical due to weapon rank retention but ultimately he should end on his horse.

Edit: also, the difference in growths and base speed between Pally and Hero is 1 Spd and 5% growth. It doesn't make TOO much of a difference, but I guess every bit counts?

Edited December 15, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[avengerfive]

Edit: also, the difference in growths and base speed between Pally and Hero is 1 Spd and 5% growth. It doesn't make TOO much of a difference, but I guess every bit counts?

I should have checked this beforehand :/. I figured Merc/Hero would have a much higher speed growth/base than paladin.

Btw does Camilla need a pairup for Str/Spd?

[Ownagepuffs]

I should have checked this beforehand :/. I figured Merc/Hero would have a much higher speed growth/base than paladin.

Btw does Camilla need a pairup for Str/Spd?

Her bases and growths are already high AF for those areas, but more never hurts. She'd like speed more than strength so that it can keep her doubling thresholds for steel weapons good (a +1 Steel Axe is 14 Mt, +2 is 16 Mt lol. Nohr actually throws enough axes at you to make a +2 no problem). Good fodder for her includes Arthur, Flannel, Inigo, Luna (early on for steels), and sorta Kaze (works both ways).

[Wayward Alchemist]

Hmm... About reclassing, are there any characters that DEFINATELY fare better when reclassed? Definitely Asama, but all E ranks are a bit discouraging. Also Herb Merchant is cripplingly slow, and Asama's speed is nothing to write home about to begin with. Maybe marriage to... I don't know... Kagerou? But he would just wind up fitting the role that Kagerou and Saizou do but worse, and all those two are is a worse Ninja Corrin to begin with. I really don't know what to do with this guy.

[Espinosa]

Why use a parallel seal on Asama when there are so much better options out there? If anything, what Asama needs is an early promotion; this way he can continue using staves while fighting back at 1-range with Bronze Naginatas or what have you.

I think it probably pays off more to continue using Sakura instead of Asama because taking 2 less damage is really nice, and stacks with other auras to boot.

Most characters fare far better when staying in their original class, sorta like is the case in Shadow Dragon. Corrin and the servants make for the best reclasses, Jakob especially because Strategist Felicia is too easy to kill, often OHKO'd by common attacks and not growing much physical durability at all. Too bad because tomes give her actual offence prior to the explosive shuriken attacking res with her best offensive stat.

Some more units want the extra mobility / flight / added utility, but most units that are actually worth using are best staying in the initial class tree.

[Shadow Mir]

Why use a parallel seal on Asama when there are so much better options out there? If anything, what Asama needs is an early promotion; this way he can continue using staves while fighting back at 1-range with Bronze Naginatas or what have you.

I think it probably pays off more to continue using Sakura instead of Asama because taking 2 less damage is really nice, and stacks with other auras to boot.

Most characters fare far better when staying in their original class, sorta like is the case in Shadow Dragon. Corrin and the servants make for the best reclasses, Jakob especially because Strategist Felicia is too easy to kill, often OHKO'd by common attacks and not growing much physical durability at all. Too bad because tomes give her actual offence prior to the explosive shuriken attacking res with her best offensive stat.

Some more units want the extra mobility / flight / added utility, but most units that are actually worth using are best staying in the initial class tree.

Erm, what level would an early promoted character be treated as?

[Ownagepuffs]

Hmm... About reclassing, are there any characters that DEFINATELY fare better when reclassed? Definitely Asama, but all E ranks are a bit discouraging. Also Herb Merchant is cripplingly slow, and Asama's speed is nothing to write home about to begin with. Maybe marriage to... I don't know... Kagerou? But he would just wind up fitting the role that Kagerou and Saizou do but worse, and all those two are is a worse Ninja Corrin to begin with. I really don't know what to do with this guy.

Basically what Espinosa said. Mozume is also significantly better when reclasses but she just goes from really terrible to kinda terrible so her situation doesn't change.

The only characters hankering for a reclass would be Mozume, Kamui, and the servants. Camilia appreciates one after getting Deadly Breath because Wyvern is a straight statistical increase for her, Leo is an interesting case. You could either make him a full out nuke with Sorc or make him a faster mount with Strategist. However, I prefer him as a Dark Knight because he's fast enough as a Dark while also having some pretty crazy good bulk. Camilia and Marx are also kinda cool. Assuming Cam marries either Arthur/Flannel or buddies with Luna, she can opt to go Zerker/Hero for a bit to get some cool skills and Marx could go Hero if he marries Charlotte. It's overkill reclassing, but it's still cool. Basically, there aren't that many characters that benefit from their own secondary, but there is a lot you can do with buddy/marriage seals.

Erm, what level would an early promoted character be treated as?

I'd wager 10/1. So... 31?

[CocoaGalaxy]

Erm, what level would an early promoted character be treated as?

I was told the formula was

Current + 10 + X/2, where X is the level you promoted at

[Espinosa]

Great Knight Marx could probably be considered too. No one cares about E axes, but the extra raw stats are appreciated, as are the GK skills to add to his repertoire. The drawbacks are obviously losing movement, losing speed and being even more vulnerable to tome users. You can probably learn the skills later on when you're past -/15 and then go back to pally while retaining Diamond Strike and Luna.

[Skarthe]

Great Knight Marx could probably be considered too. No one cares about E axes, but the extra raw stats are appreciated, as are the GK skills to add to his repertoire. The drawbacks are obviously losing movement, losing speed and being even more vulnerable to tome users. You can probably learn the skills later on when you're past -/15 and then go back to pally while retaining Diamond Strike and Luna.

I'd agree with a temporary reclass to get skills, but not staying in GK; his speed is already poor even in Paladin, which makes going GK a risky endeavor I think.