Buddy/Marriage Seals - Kanna is an exception?

[CaelK]

Asked this in the sticky, but another poster (who was very helpful) told me it would probably be better to start a new topic for this 'cause it'd get more attention than the stickies... which I guess aren't looked at much. So, copy-paste, go.

This site right here says that Kanna (male or female) always shares Kamui's secondary when buddying, regardless of whether Kamui was his mother or father, so I'm going to assume it's the same for marriage. It's in Japanese, so brace yourself (and the link might look weird in text).

http://www2.pegasusknight.com/wiki/fe14/index.php?%E3%83%A6%E3%83%8B%E3%83%83%E3%83%88%2F%E6%94%AF%E6%8F%B4S%E3%83%BBA%2B%E5%80%99%E8%A3%9C

You can Ctrl-F for カンナ（男） or カンナ（女） if you wanna get there quick. Every single table for A+ supports (支援A+候補) where Kanna is, it says that male Kanna shares his mother's secondary （母の第二兵種）, and female Kanna shares her father's secondary （父の第二兵種）. It seems like it's saying that Kanna is an exception when it comes to sharing his classes, and nobody else Seal shares like him.

First question I guess... is this blatantly wrong? If not, I got two more about what the wiki doesn't say:

(1) If this class (Kamui's secondary) is the same as Kanna's buddy's/spouse's initial class, then it goes straight to the alternate version of that class (Kamui's alternate secondary). I presume this is true, but is it really?

(2) Let's say we got Samurai Kamui (female) + Ryouma, making Male Kanna: Nohr Prince/Samurai (from Ryouma)/Mercenary (from Kamui). The two possible things I can see are...

-> (a) Wiki as written: Male Kanna's sharing priority is still Samurai first, Mercenary second (Kamui's Class B -> Kamui's Alternate B), even though he actually got Mercenary from Kamui.

-> (b) Someone made an oversight: Male Kanna's sharing priority is Mercenary first, Samurai second (inherited Kamui class -> its alternate), since that's what he actually got from Kamui.

If (a) is true, then for the Miko Kamui + Asama pairing, Kanna still attempts to share Shugenja/Miko since that's what Kamui is, but failing that he can't share anything.

If (b) is true, then for that Miko-mui + Asama pairing, well... Kanna didn't get anything from his mother (he got Shugenja from Asama, and Kamui can't give anything else), so he shares absolutely nothing.

If anyone else can give a definite yes or no, well... I'm not gonna be setting up my Kamui so I can experiment myself so it'll just sate my curiosity, but it might be the missing piece in someone else's happy family keikaku.

[Minischew]

I can't give a definite yes or no, but I'd like to see an answer to this question--

So I'm just going to secretly bump this thread by giving a non yes or no answer.

It would probably make sense for Kanna to be an exception, since people who don't want to optimize Kanna will probably use Kanna to optimize other children (similarly to how people use Kamui to give first generation units access to classes they couldn't have otherwise).

As for the (b) example you gave, I think Kanna would still share Priest(ess), because it's not like he got nothing; he just got the class twice. Like you know how Marriage/Buddy Seals work with coinciding classes? For instance, if Luna has Pegasus Warrior as her secondary class set, and Subaki has it as his first, she gets nothing out of the deal. But if you marry her to Subaki and try to use a Marriage Seal on her, I believe you can still seal her into a Pegasus Warrior. So it's not that Subaki actually shares nothing; he shares Pegasus Warrior, but Luna just happens to have natural access to it already.

So yeah, the class is there for Kanna as well (as in, his class sets are Nohr Princess, Priest, Priest). It's just redundant.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Minischew

[gayserbeam]

Female Kanna will never give her mother's class to someone with a seal and male Kanna will never give his father's class to someone with a seal.

Miko!Kamui × Asama will spawn a Kanna with Nohr Prince, Priest, and Herb Merchant.

-If he gets an A+ or S Support with someone, they'll get Miko/Priest.

-If he marries Mitama, she'll be unable to use a Marriage Seal at all. Way back in July, we saw that if Kanna or Kamui has Herb Merchant, Preist(ess) or Rod Knight as their Secondary and marries someone with that as their Primary Class, then their spouse will be unable to use a Seal.

If Samurai!Kamui marries Ryoma, then Kanna's classes will be Nohr Prince, Samurai, and Pegasus Warrior.

-If he gets an A+ or S Support with someone, they'll get Samurai.

Samurai!Kamui × Hana will spawn a Kanna with Nohr Princess, Samurai and Miko.

-If she gets an A+ or S Support with someone, they'll get Samurai.

-If she marries Hisame, Hisame will get Mercenary from the Marriage Seal as an analogue to Samurai, never Preist.

[CaelK]

Miko!Kamui × Asama will spawn a Kanna with Nohr Prince, Priest, and Herb Merchant.

...

If Samurai!Kamui marries Ryoma, then Kanna's classes will be Nohr Prince, Samurai, and Pegasus Warrior.

Egh... I thought about this for a sec, but it seems like I gotta clear up inheritance before I can ask my other questions. If these examples are true, then it looks like Kamui goes first even when she's the mother?

I thought it went...

A - Kanna starts out with Nohr Prince.

B - Asama is the father and goes first, giving Shugenja.

C - Kamui is the mother and goes last, but can't give anything that Kanna doesn't already have. (Kanna already has Nohr Prince and Shugenja, and Miko doesn't have an alternate.)

An example in the sticky went Cavalier Kamui (Female) + Silas giving Kanna (A) Nohr Prince, (B) Cavalier from Silas, and © Ninja from Kamui. (They said there was a shot of this floating around the web, too.) And from this, we inferred...

A - Kanna starts out with Nohr Prince.

B - He gets Cavalier from some parent.

C - But he gets Ninja (the alternate from Cavalier), which must have come from Kamui. If Silas gave his class last, this would be Mercenary instead; therefore, Silas must have given his class first and Kamui last.

I can't actually ask anything else until this one's answered, specifically because I'm pretty sure my examples are obviated if Kamui doesn't follow father -> mother inheritance order.

Edited December 10, 2015 by CaelK

[CaelK]

Bit of a double post, but here just to say I noticed a few comments in the Wicurio wiki that makes me pretty sure at this point that Kamui goes last no matter what. This means I still got questions.

http://www.wicurio.com/fireemblemif/index.php?CC%E3%81%BE%E3%81%A8%E3%82%81

薬商人カムイ♀とユキムラでカンナ♂のパラレルは薬商人のみ、薬商人も変換無しを確認。

Going Apothecary Kamui (female) and Yukimura: Kanna (male) only has Apothecary with a Parallel Seal, so it doesn't have an alternate it can change to.

上記のロッドナイト同士の組み合わせも性別逆にしたらどうなるかと思って、素質ロッドナイトカムイ♀×ジョーカーでジョーカーにマリッジ不可、カンナ♂のパラレル候補はロッドナイトのみ。これらからロッドナイトと修験者/巫女の変換無しはほぼ確定。

Also with the two Rod Knights example, I thought I'd see what happens if we used a female Kamui instead (TL: translation put in context). With Rod Knight Kamui (female) and Joker, Joker can't use Marriage Seals, Kanna only gets Rod Knight with a Parallel Seal. Think it's safe to say that Rod Knight and Shugenja/Miko have no alternates.

So my questions... We already know (or rather, everything I've seen and heard says) that in most cases, Kanna will attempt to share whatever Kamui's secondary even is if Kamui is his mother, but...

Suppose because of class overlap, that male Kanna gets the alternate of his mother's class.

First, when his buddy/wife uses a Buddy/Marriage Seal, does he first attempt to share his mother's secondary no matter what (even though he got it from his father), or the alternate (which is really what he ended up getting from his mother)?

Second, in these cases when Kanna has two classes and didn't get anything new from Kamui (female), what does he share? I mean, we've theorized that he either (a) technically got his mother's class twice and so still attempts to share it, or (b) just shares Kamui's secondary no matter what making the effect the same, but it'd be nice if someone can say something concrete. There's still the chance that since his mother couldn't pass him anything, that he can't share anything.

And finally, I'm going to assume that whatever class Kanna attempts to share, that if his buddy or spouse has it as their initial class, they get the alternate (if any) instead. Someone tell me if I'm wrong.

Edited December 10, 2015 by CaelK

[Tooru]

Female Kanna will never give her mother's class to someone with a seal and male Kanna will never give his father's class to someone with a seal.

Miko!Kamui × Asama will spawn a Kanna with Nohr Prince, Priest, and Herb Merchant.

-If he gets an A+ or S Support with someone, they'll get Miko/Priest.

-If he marries Mitama, she'll be unable to use a Marriage Seal at all. Way back in July, we saw that if Kanna or Kamui has Herb Merchant, Preist(ess) or Rod Knight as their Secondary and marries someone with that as their Primary Class, then their spouse will be unable to use a Seal.

If Samurai!Kamui marries Ryoma, then Kanna's classes will be Nohr Prince, Samurai, and Pegasus Warrior.

-If he gets an A+ or S Support with someone, they'll get Samurai.

Samurai!Kamui × Hana will spawn a Kanna with Nohr Princess, Samurai and Miko.

-If she gets an A+ or S Support with someone, they'll get Samurai.

-If she marries Hisame, Hisame will get Mercenary from the Marriage Seal as an analogue to Samurai, never Preist.

I don't think Asama!Kanna can marry Mitama.

[AstraSage]

Female Kanna will never give her mother's class to someone with a seal and male Kanna will never give his father's class to someone with a seal.

Miko!Kamui × Asama will spawn a Kanna with Nohr Prince, Priest, and Herb Merchant.

-If he gets an A+ or S Support with someone, they'll get Miko/Priest.

-If he marries Mitama, she'll be unable to use a Marriage Seal at all. Way back in July, we saw that if Kanna or Kamui has Herb Merchant, Preist(ess) or Rod Knight as their Secondary and marries someone with that as their Primary Class, then their spouse will be unable to use a Seal.

If Samurai!Kamui marries Ryoma, then Kanna's classes will be Nohr Prince, Samurai, and Pegasus Warrior.

-If he gets an A+ or S Support with someone, they'll get Samurai.

Samurai!Kamui × Hana will spawn a Kanna with Nohr Princess, Samurai and Miko.

-If she gets an A+ or S Support with someone, they'll get Samurai.

-If she marries Hisame, Hisame will get Mercenary from the Marriage Seal as an analogue to Samurai, never Priest.

Calling you out on a few statements because Kamui never goes first in the inheritance checks when she's the mother, so in the first bolded case Asama!Kanna misses out the Herb Merchant and only has Nohr Prince & Priest as his Class Set thanks to the issues the Healer classes have with their lack of alternates while in the second case Ryoma!Kanna gets Mercenary instead.

Also, because Asama!Kanna and Mitama are siblings, I'd tell you a better example of what you meant to illustrate in the Priestess!Kamui x Subaki case I received from when I asked Carter to try a lot of the Outlier A+/S Pairings back in August to understand the finer processes behind Inheritance and Seal Reclassing... And making the Class Inheritance Tables I'm shamelessly plugging below...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Xd0pBZ4oQtk7o3fBXUcCGCXc8tQ3BFSx4CcknOkPKTc/edit?usp=sharing

An Important Trick to understand about Seal Reclassing with Kanna that was discovered from Shara using a Buddy Seal with a non-Orochi!Kinu way back then is that reclassing Child Characters (actually, probably also the Characters with Special Classes if not anyone recruitable) seems to show the existence of Two Class Sets:

On one side, there's a Dynamic Class Set shown upfront whenever you reclass with a Parallel Seal that starts with the Three Class Trees gotten from the Inheritance and can then be expanded with whatever different Class Tree you get from the Buddy Seal, the Marriage Seal and the DLC Reclass Items.

On the other side, there's also an Static Class Set that seems to work in the background as the actual reference the Buddy/Marriage Seal takes from the Companion when comparing it to the Primary Tree in the Seal User's Dynamic Set and the fact Shara always reclasses as an Herb Merchant even when her buddy Kinu lacks the Tree in her visible class set and the fact Matoi can reclass as a Rod Knight via Marriage Seal with Jakob!Shigure even when he got instead the Wyvern Rider Tree from Azura points to the fact that (outside Lutz, Shinonome, Midoriko and Foleo) Child Characters' Static Sets are totally traced from the Class Sets their Static Parents use so Kanna gets both the Secondary Tree and the Alternate one from the Avatar and in turn can pass them to their Spouse and Buddy in however way it's expected (Secondary if there's No Overlap with the Spouse/Buddy's Primary Tree, Alternate otherwise).

Edited December 11, 2015 by AstraSage

[CaelK]

On the other side, there's also an Static Class Set that seems to work in the background as the actual reference the Buddy/Marriage Seal takes from the Companion when comparing it to the Primary Tree in the Seal User's Dynamic Set and the fact Shara always reclasses as an Herb Merchant even when her buddy Kinu lacks the Tree in her visible class set and the fact Matoi can reclass as a Rod Knight via Marriage Seal with Jakob!Shigure even when he got instead the Wyvern Rider Tree from Azura points to the fact that (outside Lutz, Shinonome, Midoriko and Foleo) Child Characters' Static Sets are totally traced from the Class Sets their Static Parents use so Kanna gets both the Secondary Tree and the Alternate one from the Avatar and in turn can pass them to their Spouse and Buddy in however way it's expected (Secondary if there's No Overlap with the Spouse/Buddy's Primary Tree, Alternate otherwise).

Oooh-kay, gonna read that real slow like.

Honestly, the examples here I think I can explain with normal sharing order... but rather than Joker/Shigure + Matoi, maybe non-Joker/Shigure + Matoi is more telling. Had to do some digging for this, but...

http://www.wicurio.com/fireemblemif/index.php?%E5%AD%90%E4%BE%9B%E3%83%A6%E3%83%8B%E3%83%83%E3%83%88%2Fcomment

子供ユニットにマリッジプルフを使って素質Bを調べてたんだけど、

(1)マトイとシグレ(父親：スズカゼ　)を支援Sにして、マトイにマリッジプルフを使う→ロッドナイト系

(2)マトイとシグレ(父親：ジョーカー)を支援Sにして、マトイにマリッジプルフを使う→ロッドナイト系

だった。シグレの方に使うと侍系。「親(≠結婚相手)から引き継いだ素質」とか「(判定順が先の)父親から引き継いだ素質」とかは関係なく、引き継ぎが確定してる方が素質Bになってるっぽい。

Thought I'd try to figure out which Class B the child characters have, but...

(1) Matoi with Suzukaze/Shigure: S support and Matoi using a Marriage Seal -> Rod Knight

(2) Matoi with Joker/Shigure: S Support and Matoi using a Marriage Seal -> Rod Knight

... is what happened. Shigure using a Marriage Seal gave him Samurai. So, we're not dealing with looking at the parents' classes (not your spouse's), or even with the class you got from your father (who passed it to you first). The class you get for sure seems to be your Class B.

So yeah. Since Matoi gets Rod Knight no matter what, well... Shigure necessarily must have Rod Knight as one of his classes, whether he gets it from his father or his mother. But he never shares Ninja which he could get from Suzukaze, or Dragon Knight which he could get from Aqua. Which leads me to believe that indeed as in your post, there could be some second list of classes that says what a character shares, which can be different than the list of what he can reclass into... which coincides very closely to Class A -> Class B -> Alternate A in most cases.

Which means for Kanna (or anyone else for that matter)... even if say, we have Dark Mage Kamui (female) + Leon, the game stores in your save somewhere:

(1) Kanna's inherited classes: Nohr Prince, Dark Mage (from Leon), Spellweaver (from Kamui, the alternate)

(2) Kanna's sharing classes: Dark Mage first, then Spellweaver (even though he got Spellweaver from Kamui)

... And if you give Kanna an S support with somebody, most female characters will get Dark Mage with a Marriage Seal. Ophelia already has it as her initial, so she gets Spellweaver instead.

This is what you're saying, right? 'Cause if so, I have my suspicions on how everything looks like under the hood. Granted, there are a few of ways to do inheritance and sharing this way, though I'm starting to wonder what was going through their heads when they made this.

Edited December 11, 2015 by CaelK