Controversial Aspects in Fates? (Possible Censorship in NA?)

[Homosexualbeard]

The difference is, the characters are soldiers fighting in a war. Killing is unavoidable unless you're Kamui.

Which is why civilized countries don't make children fight. A fictional child fictionally killing fictional people is just as bad as a fictional child fictionally wearing fictional clothes that people think are too skimpy.

[nordopolica]

Which is why civilized countries don't make children fight. A fictional child fictionally killing fictional people is just as bad as a fictional child fictionally wearing fictional clothes that people think are too skimpy.

Not really. A narrative is still an experience for the player, and there is arguably a certain dramatic poignancy to your former example which can add to the narrative itself, while the latter instance (again, arguably) cheapens it and adds nothing.

[Sasori]

The difference is Henry doesn't actually kill people randomly.

Oh don't worry Pieri doesn't kill at random. Her reasonings can varry a lot, such as being bored or because someone doesn't give her some cookies.

I have no idea why they decided to make someone as insane as Pieri a recruitable character. Honestly I would rather be stuck with Valtome, instead of her since i'm fairly certain he's less likely to kill me.

[Homosexualbeard]

Not really. A narrative is still an experience for the player, and there is arguably a certain dramatic poignancy to your former example which can add to the narrative itself, while the latter instance (again, arguably) cheapens it and adds nothing.

We both know Fire Emblem doesn't address that kind of thing dramatically, at least not anymore. They fight with you because they can, more or less. A quick line about "I want to fight" and then the plot just pretends they aren't there. If you don't want to see them in bathing suits or whatever, just don't put them in bathing suits or whatever.

[Sunwoo]

Honestly I'm looking forward to seeing how much if any of that particular plot point changes in the localisation mostly because I want to see how they stumble through that mess. Keep it the same and it's the same mess, change it and it could range from 'superfluous' to 'trainwreck.' I'm excited for the latter, to be honest.

Agreed, at this point I think I'm just interested to see what the localization will do for the story and the various plot points. If it gets more coherent, great. If it gets worse, at least I'll have a good laugh.

[The DanMan]

I don't think that's what they were going for at all.

Many JRPGs have sexy outfits, and in almost all of these you kill people. Take for example Tales of Symphonia: I can have Sheena kill all human/half elf/elf bosses in a skimpy swimsuit.

But can this truly be seen as actual violence? I think not-- the picture you see does not have blood or an incredibly shocking depiction of pain, it's only anime people going GUH!! and then getting used to mop the floor. It feels more like seeing people mocking a fight, without true bruises and pain. It's just cool looking anime fighting, like BlazBlue.

Now I remember that they added clothes getting torn, but that's probably another way for fanservice and show more sorcerass.

I guess a good way to put it is "Anime fights are cool, but anime fights with people in sexy clothes are cooler and also sexy".

Plus, now they added the option to move the camera and zoom in, to get good shots. It's all titillation and for the most part, with the dress store in My Castle, it doesn't even have to be in-battle.

AFAIK you can't use sexy outfits and accessories outside of My Castle (probably due to cutscenes and such), but I could be wrong.

I'd like to delve into things a bit more here.

BlazBlue knows what it is, and absolutely runs with it (have you seen some of the gag endings?).

From the start, BB's been pretty self aware and frequently pokes fun/lampshades itself.

FE doesn't. The fanservice is present, but it's there for the sake of pleasing some pervs on the dev team and shipping copies. It's fully a part of BlazBlue, while in FE, it's ... there, but it still feels divorced from the rest of the series.

The feeling and execution of fanservice is vastly different between the two series. It's firmly part of BlazBlue's identity of over-the-top all-things anime; with FE it's a fairly jarring discontinuity within the series overall because of the recent "something for everyone" approach to capitalize off of Otaku's.

TL;DR the fanservice doesn't seem to mesh with FE because of how blatantly it goes against the series identity, while it's been part of BlazBlue from the start and that series runs with it.

Just tell me I'm not completely stir crazy and I'm onto something here.

Edited January 8, 2016 by The DanMan

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i actually think your onto something, fire emblem has never really been about sexualized fan service, heck the biggest thing you could argue was the dancer outfits in FE4 and Lyn's boob jiggle in her Sol Katti animations.

heck i overlook alot of stuff in Sengoku Rance just because it fully aware of what it is and runs with it, while still surprising me with twists on some stuff.

meanwhile fire emblem goes "this game is about FAMILY, and because its about family you can fuck your family, but its okay because only the dancer girl is related to you, and that's your cousin, along with her son." and then expects us to take its themes about family as serious.

it just feels kinda off, ya know.

[Sunwoo]

I know this thread is about possible censorship in NA, but I was reminded of something … interesting that I learned today.

So, apparently, Fates will be the first Fire Emblem game to be translated and released in Korea. This game makes marrying first cousins easily possible. First cousin marriage is illegal in Korea, and I think marriage within your family is illegal up to your fourth or so cousin.

Wow. Just wow.

EDIT: Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_809_of_the_Korean_Civil_Code

EDIT 2:

Actually, depending on whether my interpretation of this wording is correct, Kamui marrying either the Nohr or Hoshido siblings may also be illegal?

Marriage may not be allowed between parties whose relationship of blood relative existed within the sixth degree of adoptive parents lineage and within the fourth degree of adoptive parents affinity.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Captain Karnage]

meanwhile fire emblem goes "this game is about FAMILY, and because its about family you can fuck your family, but its okay because only the dancer girl is related to you, and that's your cousin, along with her son." and then expects us to take its themes about family as serious.

I if recall, don't most of the family members bring up that this love is forbidden

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Yeah, I mostly used BB as an example for the violence and outfits and tone, but you are right that FE has never been like this, and drastic changes such as these are jarring. The game does feel off in its fanservice and I wish this sort of opinion wasn't always ditched and met with criticism in other communities.

I did not want to attack BB with my post, btw. I just needed to find something similar lol. I was also gonna say Street Fighter and Darkstalkers at first, but they are not as anime as BB lol.

[NekoKnight]

TL;DR the fanservice doesn't seem to mesh with FE because of how blatantly it goes against the series identity, while it's been part of BlazBlue from the start and that series runs with it.

Just tell me I'm not completely stir crazy and I'm onto something here.

No, you're spot on. I (usually) don't bring up fan-service as a negative feature of IPs that have it ingrained into the character of the series.

Which is why civilized countries don't make children fight. A fictional child fictionally killing fictional people is just as bad as a fictional child fictionally wearing fictional clothes that people think are too skimpy.

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Children characters in Fire Emblem join your army for a number of reasons. You don't have to support children fighting in wars to acknowledge that it might be necessary, or something they want to do out of personal convictions. Maybe they could be more self-aware about children fighting alongside their adult peers but at least they have reasons to fight.

Things like being able to marry children is completely unnecessary (but you're encouraged to to get all the characters) for the narrative. What purpose does it serve to have Zero, a grown man, hitting on a 12 year old girl? Now, you could have children being married to adults as a point of drama, but Fire Emblem completely normalizes what are not normal relationships. It's the same way for outfits. The game shouldn't make sexualizing children a feature.

[Sunwoo]

On the topic of children fighting in the war, I felt that Mist and Rolf did it best in Path of Radiance. They were always there in the story, but they only joined until after something really big and dramatic happened. I actually don't have a problem with why Sakura joined the fight in the Hoshido route, she'd basically lost her older brothers (as far as anyone knew) and she was really upset at the thought of it. Does Elise have a good reason for joining in Nohr?

[nordopolica]

On the topic of children fighting in the war, I felt that Mist and Rolf did it best in Path of Radiance. They were always there in the story, but they only joined until after something really big and dramatic happened. I actually don't have a problem with why Sakura joined the fight in the Hoshido route, she'd basically lost her older brothers (as far as anyone knew) and she was really upset at the thought of it. Does Elise have a good reason for joining in Nohr?

Eh, I'd say it's all right. She joins pretty much to protect Kamui after she sneaks out to save them, but after their little stint as a paramilitary sent by Garon to quash the initial rebellion her presence on the front line of the war isn't really justified at all.

[NekoKnight]

On the topic of children fighting in the war, I felt that Mist and Rolf did it best in Path of Radiance. They were always there in the story, but they only joined until after something really big and dramatic happened. I actually don't have a problem with why Sakura joined the fight in the Hoshido route, she'd basically lost her older brothers (as far as anyone knew) and she was really upset at the thought of it. Does Elise have a good reason for joining in Nohr?

When Kamui comes back to Nohr, Garon assigns him on what everyone knows is a suicide mission. Elise joins Kamui, explicitly unauthorized to do so, to help him out. I can't say there is a real justification for her to stick around after that but she's a healer, so it can be presumed she wouldn't be in direct combat usually.

[Sunwoo]

So Elise has a reason, but it's not really that well justified then?

[Homosexualbeard]

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Children characters in Fire Emblem join your army for a number of reasons. You don't have to support children fighting in wars to acknowledge that it might be necessary, or something they want to do out of personal convictions. Maybe they could be more self-aware about children fighting alongside their adult peers but at least they have reasons to fight.

Things like being able to marry children is completely unnecessary (but you're encouraged to to get all the characters) for the narrative. What purpose does it serve to have Zero, a grown man, hitting on a 12 year old girl? Now, you could have children being married to adults as a point of drama, but Fire Emblem completely normalizes what are not normal relationships. It's the same way for outfits. The game shouldn't make sexualizing children a feature.

They don't have to fight, though. They're children, and could be told not to. A lot of people probably won't even use them. I know Tsukuyomi's probably getting the bench in my run. You could argue "What purpose does it serve to have a child killing grown men? This completely normalizes what is not normal behavior. The game shouldn't make murdering children a feature." If one bothers you, they both should.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

I'm bothered I can put Lutz in a speedo as much as I can use him in battle, to be honest.

I'm bothered by a lot of shit in this game but what can we honestly do about it?

I don't want censorship because they'd remove things I like too (plus gameplay related things like marriage), and if covering Lin is Xenoblade Chronicles X caused this much shit (and not, say, the fundoshi, because pedos that's why), then I want the game almost intact (minus the moonspeak).

It would be legendary from Nintendo's part, if they didn't censor it, but I'm already seeing the YOU CAN DRESS UP CHILDREN IN SEXY SWIMSUITS IN THIS LEWD NINTENDO GAME, LOOK AT HOW PERVERTED THIS CHARACTER FROM NINTENDO'S LATEST GAME IS, NINTENDO'S LATEST HIT SHOWS A LOT OF "ASSETS"!, HOW I MARRIED A MAN AND PET HIM IN THE HEAD articles from Kotaku, and Etika doing some annoying shit.

But it at least would be better than finding people costantly complaining about the changes everywhere I go.

[NekoKnight]

So Elise has a reason, but it's not really that well justified then?

I guess? It's about the same as any other character in the series. They have some poignant reason to initially join your group and then they just stick around because the protagonist's cause is worth fighting for.

They don't have to fight, though. They're children, and could be told not to. A lot of people probably won't even use them. I know Tsukuyomi's probably getting the bench in my run. You could argue "What purpose does it serve to have a child killing grown men? This completely normalizes what is not normal behavior. The game shouldn't make murdering children a feature." If one bothers you, they both should.

It doesn't sound like I'm going to convince you. I said children characters generally have a reason to be fighting, either for protecting something they care about or because they need to protect themselves. This is relevant to the narrative. Sexualizing children is not.

For the record, many parents DO object to their children joining the conflict so it's not like the game just forgets about their relative vulnerability.

[Homosexualbeard]

I guess? It's about the same as any other character in the series. They have some poignant reason to initially join your group and then they just stick around because the protagonist's cause is worth fighting for.

It doesn't sound like I'm going to convince you. I said children characters generally have a reason to be fighting, either for protecting something they care about or because they need to protect themselves. This is relevant to the narrative. Sexualizing children is not.

For the record, many parents DO object to their children joining the conflict so it's not like the game just forgets about their relative vulnerability.

If only letting the kids marry or putting them in "sexy" outfits was optional. So many people who will never beat the game because of the level where you're forced to put Midoriko in a bikini and make her feel like a woman.

[Water Mage]

It's also worth noting that many playable children characters in Fire Emblem are usually war orphans who doesn't have anywhere else to go.

And besides, this is war.

War doesn't care if you're a child. As long you can wield a weapon or even if you don't, you probably will be forced to fight no matter your age or gender.

Also, and this is important, most Fire Emblem games start with a country invading another, the invaded country ends up in such a bad state that they can't afford to picky when it comes to soldiers. If children are willing to fight, they have to accept them, they don't have a choice, no matter how much they dislike the idea of children fighting. They need any help they can get.

FE1, FE6, FE8 and FE9 are the best examples of this.

[Respite&Nepenthe]

What's likely to be censored:

-some of Niles's lines; I hope they don't censor his character too badly, though.

-Pieri will likely be given the Henry treatment

-Azura and Corrin being cousins

-they will likely stress the lack of blood relation to your Hoshidan siblings prior to the S-support.

-skinship lines will almost certainly be toned down greatly.

-Elise, Sakura, Midoriko, and Mozu will likely be portrayed as a bit older. Without some of them, it would be impossible to recruit all of the children, so I don't imagine they would remove them as marriage options.

-hopefully, the "siblings" will stop calling you "brother" or "sister" past the S-support.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

If only letting the kids marry or putting them in "sexy" outfits was optional. So many people who will never beat the game because of the level where you're forced to put Midoriko in a bikini and make her feel like a woman.

I dunno, many are glad it's optional, but optional content can ruin the atmosphere or the narrative. Not as much as forced content, but it still influences you and your vision of the overall game.

"It's optional" almost seems like a strawman argument now. Basically, we can't voice our negative opinion on optional content because it's optional? But why? It does not send the discussion anywhere.

What if there was a game mode that sucked ass? Can't criticize it because it's optional?

Can't criticize a support's shitty writing because it's optional?

How about this: why do you criticize the game? If you dislike it, you should not play it. It's optional.

[Homosexualbeard]

I dunno, many are glad it's optional, but optional content can ruin the atmosphere or the narrative. Not as much as forced content, but it still influences you and your vision of the overall game.

"It's optional" almost seems like a strawman argument now. Basically, we can't voice our negative opinion on optional content because it's optional? But why? It does not send the discussion anywhere.

What if there was a game mode that sucked ass? Can't criticize it because it's optional?

Can't criticize a support's shitty writing because it's optional?

How about this: why do you criticize the game? If you dislike it, you should not play it. It's optional.

I'm not criticizing the game. I'm criticizing the "it offends me so it should be removed" mentality. It's the old right-wing "Think of the children!" rhetoric of the 90s with a new coat of paint.

[NekoKnight]

If only letting the kids marry or putting them in "sexy" outfits was optional. So many people who will never beat the game because of the level where you're forced to put Midoriko in a bikini and make her feel like a woman.

Not marrying off Sakura or Elise will result in one less parent and thus one less child paralogue. And if you marry Mamui to a first gen, non Kamui-sexual, you were already losing one character/chapter. This is cutting out real content.

It's also worth noting that many playable children characters in Fire Emblem are usually war orphans who doesn't have anywhere else to go.

And besides, this is war.

War doesn't care if you're a child. As long you can wield a weapon or even if you don't, you probably will be forced to fight no matter your age or gender.

Also, and this is important, most Fire Emblem games start with a country invading another, the invaded country ends up in such a bad state that they can't afford to picky when it comes to soldiers. If children are willing to fight, they have to accept them, they don't have a choice, no matter how much they dislike the idea of children fighting. They need any help they can get.

FE1, FE6, FE8 and FE9 are the best examples of this.

This. The idea that children shouldn't fight is rooted in conflicts where fighting is optional.

[Tryhard]

I'm not criticizing the game. I'm criticizing the "it offends me so it should be removed" mentality. It's the old right-wing "Think of the children!" rhetoric of the 90s with a new coat of paint.

I don't think she was saying you were criticizing the game, just that the "it's optional" argument doesn't hold water.

Bad optional content is still bad content, and therefore can be criticized. I wouldn't say I would censor it, but yeah.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Tryhard