Does anyone else get irritated by the Nohr story? *possible spoilers*

[BruceLee]

I've seen a playthrough of the Nohr route and i just felt really irritated through the whole thing.

You invade an innocent nation, slaughter innocent people, and then the people you caused so much pain and grief just forgive you and act like nothing happened. Stuff like that doesn't sit well with me.

I just don't like how there's no reason whatsoever to choose Nohr(besides loving your ''family'' so much, which then makes you a very selfish person). Because of this Nohr Kamui feels to me like a different person than Hoshido Kamui.

I'm still on the fence whether i'll even play the Nohr route, it would probably irritate me even more playing it myself.

Edited March 15, 2016 by BruceLee

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Nope, out of all 7 billion people on this planet you are the single person in the entire world that shares a sole opinion on something.

[BruceLee]

Maybe i should have worded that differently haha.

[Azz]

Just a side note, I recommend noting spoilers just in case.

But anyways I am annoyed despite the fact Conquest is my preferred path. I do happen to be more annoyed by Birthright and Revelations.

Unless they fix it in the translations, I will forever be annoyed by the story.

[Great Merchant]

Well, stories are not exactly Fates' strong suit, so I think I can somewhat understand how you feel.

In politics, forgiving nation that invaded you is not common, but it happened occasionally.

[Skarthe]

In politics, forgiving nation that invaded you is not common, but it happened occasionally.

Worth noting: no one's forgiving Nohr proper.

Hinoka - Hoshido's queen at this point - forgives Corrin personally since she saw first hand that s/he was actively trying to limit the damage - her army was spared at least once and she and her retainers were personally spared at least twice, at great personal risk to Corrin. Ryoma forgives Corrin just before his death when he realizes Corrin was forced to act like s/he killed Hinoka, and had in fact spared both Hinoka and Sakura. Nohr itself is not forgiven, but that's a moot point since Hoshido can't do anything about it anyway.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Skarthe

[Auro Astum]

I don't think Nohr as a nation is getting forgiven. I interpreted the forgiving as being directed toward MC-kun. Since they tried (and somewhat succeeded) at limiting damages.

Hoshido bugged me a lot, so I get where you are coming from/getting it.

Fates dropped the ball a bit.

[Sunwoo]

OP, you missed a couple of threads with a large amount people complaining about various aspects of Nohr's story, so no you're not the only one. Don't bump those old threads back up, though.

[riolumaster]

The only real problem I had was that it took WAY too long to get to them overthrowing Garon (if you can really call it that) and none of the characters even mentioned overthrowing him until the very end (and they even resisted fighting Garon for a bit too).

[MagicIsOP]

The only real problem I had was that it took WAY too long to get to them overthrowing Garon (if you can really call it that) and none of the characters even mentioned overthrowing him until the very end (and they even resisted fighting Garon for a bit too).

Theyre his kids, of course there's gonna be resistance.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

Theyre his kids, of course there's gonna be resistance.

Exactly and it has to be kept in mind that Xander still believes in Garon's cause to help Nohr even after he ends up accidentally killing Elise (though at the same time it can be argued too that he wanted Kamui to kill him because of the enormous anguish he must feel for killing his own flesh and blood also Kamui does mention that Xander allowed him to win). Elise is meant to be a opposite of Xander in that she is the youngest and hasn't known the true Garon like the rest of the siblings did and therefore had less of connection where as she has more of one with Kamui, hence why she has a defection in Birthright.

[riolumaster]

Theyre his kids, of course there's gonna be resistance.

But then its revealed that he's just a slime monster and their real father is long gone

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

^

Last I check that was out of shock and they couldn't immediately come to terms with it as Camilla said showing how much harder it is and Xander is the one who ends up snapping them all out of it because he says their real father would never hit any of his children.

[BruceLee]

OP, you missed a couple of threads with a large amount people complaining about various aspects of Nohr's story, so no you're not the only one. Don't bump those old threads back up, though.

I see, i've only recently started checking out these forums.

Exactly and it has to be kept in mind that Xander still believes in Garon's cause to help Nohr even after he ends up accidentally killing Elise (though at the same time it can be argued too that he wanted Kamui to kill him because of the enormous anguish he must feel for killing his own flesh and blood also Kamui does mention that Xander allowed him to win). Elise is meant to be a opposite of Xander in that she is the youngest and hasn't known the true Garon like the rest of the siblings did and therefore had less of connection where as she has more of one with Kamui, hence why she has a defection in Birthright.

What i don't understand is why it takes Garon being a slime monster for his children to finally stand against him. If Garon wasn't a slime monster and was doing all of these evil things on his own will(the siblings didn't know about the slime monster anyway), they would still condone it and follow him. Just because he's their father?

Edited January 30, 2016 by BruceLee

[riolumaster]

^

Last I check that was out of shock and they couldn't immediately come to terms with it as Camilla said showing how much harder it is and Xander is the one who ends up snapping them all out of it because he says their real father would never hit any of his children.

I just don't understand why it was so hard to fight him (or rather, it). "Garon" shows them that their real father is gone, then he attacks them, and then he attacks Corrin. So if Xander hadn't defended him/her, they would have just stood there?

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

I see, i've only recently started checking out these boards.

What i don't understand is why it takes Garon being a slime monster for his children to finally stand against him. If Garon wasn't a slime monster and was doing all of these evil things on his own will(the siblings didn't know about the slime monster anyway), they would still condone it and follow him. Just because he's their father?

Well the thing is that the Nohr siblings (Xander in particular) believe that once they win the war and mange to get Hoshido's resources for Nohr they believe that their father will return to how he originally used to be as the kind father they knew and that the Garon right now waging war is being what he has to be as a leader to save his country even if it results in committing not such great deeds. The Nohr siblings themselves don't like what happens within their kingdom, but it still has to be remind that if you were in their shoes would you kill your own flesh and blood (with their blood on your hands to haunt you for the rest of your life) or would rather try to save them (Xander's dying breath in Hoshido wants Kamui to save his father) as you still care for them. The latter option is the preferred choice is it not?

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

I just don't understand why it was so hard to fight him (or rather, it). "Garon" shows them that their real father is gone, then he attacks them, and then he attacks Corrin. So if Xander hadn't defended him/her, they would have just stood there?

Well like I said before it's shock in learning the truth right in front of their eyes (something which Leo himself still doesn't believe when Azura hands him that crystal ball to decide what to do forward and he still doesn't believe it "seeing is believing") also from what I recall correct me if I'm wrong wasn't Garon possessed sometime around Elise was born? So they're probably asking themselves questions like "How could this happen? Just when could have father been... taken over by this monster? Is our father really gone or is he still in there somewhere...?" stuff like that. I do think that if Xander didn't know about how Garon used to be with not ever hitting his children then possibly, but because he has known their father the longest they took his words to heart.

[BruceLee]

Well the thing is that the Nohr siblings (Xander in particular) believe that once they win the war and mange to get Hoshido's resources for Nohr they believe that their father will return to how he originally used to be as the kind father they knew and that the Garon right now waging war is being what he has to be as a leader to save his country even if it results in committing not such great deeds. The Nohr siblings themselves don't like what happens within their kingdom, but it still has to be remind that if you were in their shoes would you kill your own flesh and blood (with their blood on your hands to haunt you for the rest of your life) or would rather try to save them (Xander's dying breath in Hoshido wants Kamui to save his father) as you still care for them. The latter option is the preferred choice is it not?

I have to disagree. You do raise a good point about them maybe believing Garon is leading the conquest for resources and afterwards will go back to being a loving father. And to that end i guess the Hoshidans that get in the way will die.

But then there are multiple instances where Garon orders the death of unarmed Hoshidans. That's just straight up murder for no reason. I would never forgive my father for doing such a thing(if i were in such a scenario). Why would i love/want the love of a man who murders innocents for no reason?

Edited January 30, 2016 by BruceLee

[riolumaster]

Well like I said before it's shock in learning the truth right in front of their eyes (something which Leo himself still doesn't believe when Azura hands him that crystal ball to decide what to do forward and he still doesn't believe it "seeing is believing") also from what I recall correct me if I'm wrong wasn't Garon possessed sometime around Elise was born? So they're probably asking themselves questions like "How could this happen? Just when could have father been... taken over by this monster? Is our father really gone or is he still in there somewhere...?" stuff like that. I do think that if Xander didn't know about how Garon used to be with not ever hitting his children then possibly, but because he has known their father the longest they took his words to heart.

I agree with the shock part, it just annoys me a bit that they just stand there, but I see your point. It's not a huge issue to me, I just wish they were braver and accepted it a bit earlier instead of just almost letting Corrin die.

As for Elise, I don't know for sure but I would assume so. In her support with Leo she asks him to tell her about the nice Garon.

[Tsuky]

You're definitely not alone, OP. If you poke around the forum a bit, you can see quite a few threads where people have outlined the issues with the story quite clearly. A lot of interesting points get brought up, so you might want to read through them. Personally, I'm only getting Nohr for the gameplay, but I think is still worth it, since it has been highly praised. As for story, though, I think my standard has been lowered enough at this point that I can play through the game without too many facepalms...

But, to be honest, Fates's story seems a bit underwhelming as a whole, given how much they hyped it up; it's not a problem exclusive to Conquest

Edited January 30, 2016 by Tsuky

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

I have to disagree. You do raise a good point about them maybe believing Garon is leading the conquest for resources and afterwards will go back to being a loving father. And to that end i guess the Hoshidans that get in the way will die.

But then there are multiple instances where Garon orders the death of unarmed Hoshidans. That's just straight up murder for no reason. I would never forgive my father for doing such a thing(if i were in such a scenario). Why would i love/want the love of a man who murders innocents for no reason?

I understand where you're coming from, but Garon does actually give a reason (though not a likable one) "If things were turned around, they wouldn't hesitate to kill us." is what Garon says when Kamui defends Kaze and Rinkah also I pretty much in another topic mentioned how civilians in Hoshido insulted royalty and brought my argument along with why they were killed and someone else also pointed out in how mid evil times (Europe particularly) if you insulted royalty you had a date with the axe.

Said other topic > http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=58678&hl=

(Just please don't post on it as it almost went out of control).

Edited January 30, 2016 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

Also I might as well post what a translator for Fates said with her opinion of both games who I had a discussion with on.

"As for my opinions on Birthright and Conquest.... Honestly? It feels a little uneven. Like, I feel like the Nohr siblings steal the show in both routes. Obviously Conquest is "their" route, but even in Birthright... The conflict with them, because you know they aren't totally bad people, makes them and the intrigue surrounding their situation the focus.

The narrative of all three games follow a "question -> heart -> answer" type storyline, which is common (ish? at least from what I've read) in visual novels with multiple routes or sequels, but not very common in the West (although elements of it can be seen in games like the Bioshock series).

Basically, each route takes up a different aspect of the story. Birthright is the "question" or "intrigue" of the story. Yes, it forms a complete narrative, but it still poses questions that remain unanswered. In this case, what's happening on the Nohr side of the story. You get bits and pieces of how they aren't "bad" people per se, and that of how much they care for the player character. But all of their backstory is shrouded in mystery because you're only getting one side of the story, which leaves the player to wonder about their side, thus the intrigue. Basically, the point of the route is to act as the foundation for the others to build off of. These "question" narratives are usually the simplest in a series. (For a popular video game example, this would align with the first Bioshock. For lesser known examples, you can look at the Fate route of Fate/Stay Night or it's prequel, Fate/Zero. The question arcs of Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni also qualify, if you've ever read/watched that).

Then, Conquest would be the "heart" route. It is the emotional answer to the story, with probably the most emphasis on both theme and characterization, and while it's in a strange place narrative wise (it has to answer questions, but it can't be the tell-all revelations (ha) route), it often contains an integral element, usually by way of either theme or character motivations, in understanding the story. Thus why I've deemed it the "heart". In this case, the heart of the narrative is the thematic exploration of the concept of justice and ideals vs reality, as well as getting to the heart of the Nohr siblings' motivations. Without fully understanding the nuances there and experiencing the struggle and questioning of the ideal of justice, the rest of the story falls apart because it's hinged on the concepts presented here. "Heart" narrative segments are defined by being character driven rather than event driven - it's main focus is on understanding. In stories with looping timelines, these are often the most bittersweet as they're the Hope Spot - the almost-happy ending that barely got away. (For popular video game series, this would align with Bioshock 2. Relating to the examples before, the "heart" route of Fate/Stay Night would be the Unlimited Blade Works route, or within the series, would be Fate/Stay Night itself. In Higuarshi no Naku Koro Ni, it would be the penultimate arc, Minagoroshi-hen)

As stated, I still haven't actually played Invisible Kingdom, but from what I've heard of it, it has all the calling cards of an "answer" arc. Answer arcs are, of course, where the hidden "truth" of a story is revealed in full. This usually means really fucking weird shenanigans (hello, Bioshock Infinite) and usually a happy ending - or at least an ending that ties up most loose ends (meaning - it may not be the "everybody survives arc" but it might be the "enough people survive compared to the rest of the series for me to consider this a good end" if that makes sense). (Relating to my previous examples - Bioshock Infinite is the answer to the Bioshock series. The Heaven's Feel route is the answer to Fate/Stay Night, while Fate/Hollow Ataraxia is the answer to both Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night. In Higurashi, the answer is the final arc, Matsuribayashi-hen)

IM SO SORRY FOR RAMBLING ABOUT THE NARRATIVE SETUP BUT it was imperative to be acquainted with it to understand why I say I like both Birthright and Conquest about as much as each other. Birthright does its job by giving you the brunt of the conflict, and the story of a war between two kingdoms with the player character caught in the middle is compelling, but Conquest has the thematic and character depth I, as a critical writer, can really sink my teeth into."

[BruceLee]

I understand where you're coming from, but Garon does actually give a reason (though not a likable one) "If things were turned around, they wouldn't hesitate to kill us." is what Garon says when Kamui defends Kaze and Rinkah also I pretty much in another topic mentioned how civilians in Hoshido insulted royalty and brought my argument along with why they were killed and someone else also pointed out in how mid evil times (Europe particularly) if you insulted royalty you had a date with the axe.

But as you say, that is not a good reason, which is the same as no reason for me. If a loved one of yours has people(who haven't actively done you harm) in a position where he can decide whether they live or not, and then has them all slaughtered giving the reason ''they would have done the same'' would you forgive them for that? That reason has no basis whatsoever.

In chapter 22 for example, where the Hoshidans have surrendered and are willing to be taken captive. They get slaughtered by direct orders from Garon. How Xander can still love his father at that point is what i can't understand.

[NekoKnight]

Forget how they treat the Hoshidans, look at how Garon treats Kamui. The moment he gets back from Hoshido, Garon sends him on an obvious suicide mission, cackling about how he wants Kamui to suffer. Yup, Father of the Year. He's just oozing (hah) charisma.

Marx sees and hears all of this but doesn't rebel against Garon until the very end. It okay to abuse Kamui but when Garon attacks Elise, Camilla and Leon, THEN it's "something our real father would never do."

[thundershock125]

i agree with ya there man, Garon and Nohr just screws kamui a lot