Does anyone else get irritated by the Nohr story? *possible spoilers*

[Ebony]

I'm going to ignore Ayanami/PuffPuff as Sunwoo suggested and take my leave of this thread after leaving this:

I think I would have supported Nohr way easier if they didn't have the misfortune of having a bad storyline and stuck more to the "revolutionize from the inside" route.

[PuffPuff]

I tried to read Ayanami's posts but gave up, lol.

If they were going to make Kamui complicit in the invasion, I would have preferred a setting where Hoshido didn't have any hope of winning, so it would be kinder to assist the invasion and spare as many as possible rather than have the conflict drawn out. The problem is, because Birthright is a thing, we KNOW that Hoshido can win the war if Kamui fights for them. So Kamui objectively made things worse by siding with Nohr. To top it off, Kamui's goal of defeating Garon is the same for both routes so he might as well fight on the just side.

Probably nothing. Marx supported the invasion because he thought Garon would return to his old self after taking Hoshido (Yes, a war of aggression was started because Marx didn't want to sort out his family drama privately). If all the things that happen during the war weren't enough to convince Marx that Daddy was bad news, I don't know what the turning point would be.

Maybe he would assist Garon in the invasion of Elibe and Tellius? Or he would slowly ween Garon off conquering and take Garon to Conquerors Anonymous.

What part is it that you don't understand?

Garon is a cruel ruler during the events game but really nothing on that scale actually really happens. It's not like say for example Sacred Stones where Grado sets monsterous spiders to attack villagers including children(chapter 6). Plus even after he's revealed as a slime monster they're hesistant to actually fight him, since he's their father.

https://fateswartable.wordpress.com/2015/12/24/nohr-chapter-27-the-hollow-king/#more-247

Additionally Considering Nohr already controlled/had power most of its surrounding countries I don't see why Nohr engaging in a war to subdue Hoshido would be crossing a line for a character like Xander especially considering a translation of his perspective of Justice during War in chapter 24:

Similarly in the Hoshido route after beating Garon

https://kantopia.wordpress.com/2015/06/30/fire-emblem-fates-hoshido-story-summary/

The statements about ambitions on both separate routes. I think in the attempt to want Nohr to have a "reason" for the conflict I think people have forgotten that the Nohr are the "Glory Seeking Nohr" as first revealed. Real Garon had a motivation and considering Xander's perspective the war conquering Hoshido may have always been part of Garon's ambitions and conquering a country may not be something the rest of Nohr didn't see as out of the ordinary to begin with. The only difference on Real Garon's and Slime Garon's perspective on the conflict is the shift in goals: Slime Garon wanted to conquer Hoshido then destroy it and then destroy Nohr afterwards but masks it throughout the game by stating he only wishes to conquer it.

There is no telling how he died and that the slime one took his place. Still answers that needed to find out in the Eng release.

Look i see what you're saying, but it's simply not executed properly. If the writers wanted us to see Xander as someone who is ok with these actions, fine. I would dislike his character, but i wouldn't call him a bad character.

But the way the game is written it's like one moment he is fine with invading an innocent country, and the next moment we should see him as a peace-loving guy who is against stuff like that. The writers should have stuck to one viewpoint and rolled with it, not go bouncing around from one to another. And it's not just the case with Xander only, it's the case with the enitre Nohr path.

I don't know about Camilla and Beruka's point of view since they could care less.

I think it's mentioned they have occasional border skirmishes but Nohrian forces can't enter Hoshido proper until after Mikoto dies because of her magic barrier.

Um...how is it that she can barrier a country?! That never showed in the readout wiki. :/

----

There are still things that have no answers yet and they are...

Nohr

-Why did Garon agree with Anakos to have Avatar take the trial? (Ch7)

-Why Garon wanted the Ice tribe destroyed?(Ch8 and 9)

Ch12 Nohr

-Why did Ryoma use poison on Elise trying to force Corrin to side with them?

-Who exactly is the Rainbow Sage and where did he come from?

-Why did Saizou agree to help you in Ch17?

Hoshido

-What exactly is the black fortress and why would Iago try to trap you there?(Ch20)

Revelations

-Everything. As have got no information of other than on wiki for Shinmei and Scarlet.

Not knowing because I don't use the fan translation.

Edited February 5, 2016 by PuffPuff

[Alazen]

The statements about ambitions on both separate routes. I think in the attempt to want Nohr to have a "reason" for the conflict I think people have forgotten that the Nohr are the "Glory Seeking Nohr" as first revealed. Real Garon had a motivation and considering Xander's perspective the war conquering Hoshido may have always been part of Garon's ambitions and conquering a country may not be something the rest of Nohr didn't see as out of the ordinary to begin with. The only difference on Real Garon's and Slime Garon's perspective on the conflict is the shift in goals: Slime Garon wanted to conquer Hoshido then destroy it and then destroy Nohr afterwards but masks it throughout the game by stating he only wishes to conquer it.

The trailer also said that the Big Choice was between Blood (while showing the Hoshido siblings) and Loyalty. How did that work out?

And besides, Fates tries to spin Nohr as an apparent crime ridden Mordorlike to the point where somebody like Elise is called the ''The Light of Nohr''.

[Rapier]

Um...how is it that she can barrier a country?! That never showed in the readout wiki. :/

----

There are still things that have no answers yet and they are...

Nohr

-Why did Garon agree with Anakos to have Avatar take the trial? (Ch7)

-Why Garon wanted the Ice tribe destroyed?(Ch8 and 9)

Ch12 Nohr

-Why did Ryoma use poison on Elise trying to force Corrin to side with them?

-Who exactly is the Rainbow Sage and where did he come from?

-Why did Saizou agree to help you in Ch17?

Hoshido

-What exactly is the black fortress and why would Iago try to trap you there?(Ch20)

Revelations

-Everything. As have got no information of other than on wiki for Shinmei and Scarlet.

Not knowing because I don't use the fan translation.

In order:

Ryouma explains that Mikoto can protect Hoshido with a magical barrier that demoralizes invading troops. I don't think this makes any sense, but it's there, and that's the explanation.

Garon agrees with Anankos because the molten wax monster who is actually Garon's imposter serves Anankos, right?

Garon wants the Ice Tribe village destroyed because they're trying to rebel.

It is heavily implied that it was Macbeth who poisoned Elise. He and Garon even scheme about making Kamui suffer before they receive orders to go to Machara and this scene kicks in.

I have no idea.

Because he wanted to exact vengeance on whats-his-face, save Kagerou and had slim chances to succeed on his job without Kamui's aid. Not that he joins them, though. Both are just facing the same enemy while not minding each other's business.

Uh, it's explained by the game that the Black Fortress is the remains of a dragon. That sounds strange, but that's it. It's just a deadly place to trap Kamui in.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Rapier

[NekoKnight]

Garon wants the Ice Tribe village destroyed because they're trying to rebel.

I believe the word they used was "subjugate" the ice village, not destroy it. Kamui was sent there by himself to quell their rebellion. If Garon wanted to destroy the village, Kamui's mission would have been regarded as a total failure (he didn't kill a single person).

Edited February 5, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Lady Sansa]

[Time the Crestfallen]

I believe the word they used was "subjugate" the ice village, not destroy it. Kamui was sent there by himself to quell their rebellion. If Garon wanted to destroy the village, Kamui's mission would have been regarded as a total failure (he didn't kill a single person).

While 'subjugate' was the word used, but I'm pretty sure he was intending for Kamui to have to subjugate them violently as part of his mission to make Kamui cry. Luckily (or unluckily, considering the subject matter), Garon forgot about Kamui's protagonist powers and they managed to do it without killing anyone. The Ice Tribe gets wrecked in Birthright though; Clear and a lot of soldiers die and Flora is told that if she doesn't attempt to kill Kamui, he'll wipe them all out.

[Seifus]

Well, here's one way that I came up with to make it a bit better.

In the chapter after making your choice, Corrin comes back to Nohr and Garon orders them on that suicide mission. Corrin, after being a unknowing part to kill Mikoto and surviving that explosion combined with how they have been treated by Garon throughout their lives, has had enough of his shit, draws out Yato, and challenges Garon to try and kill them now rather than having someone else do it.

The Nohr siblings would be shocked at this blatant rebellion and Garon pissed at this display. Corrin explains why they are doing this: That they did not appreciate being made a weapon to kill their mother, that though they love the Nohr siblings and did return to Nohr out of love for them, they want revenge for how Garon has treated them and their mother's death. They also state that unlike Xander, they do not hold out hope that Garon would return to normal when Hoshido is conquered, and if that were the case Garon must still answer for his crimes. Corrin then says that they know what they are doing is suicidal, but if this shall be the end for them, then they are taking Garon with them.

It would then lead to a duel between Corrin and Garon, with the Nohr siblings imploring them to stop, Garon threatening them to stay out of the duel or they will die, and Corrin bringing up all of the happy times they've had with the Nohr siblings while also appealing to their hearts and minds about the just cause of this little rebellion.

The duel lasts until Corrin can no longer fight, and before Garon strikes the final blow, Camilla stands between them and blocks the blow while Elise heals Corrin. Xander and Leo are now at a loss for words as the sisters take Corrin out of the palace with their retainers helping them as well. Garon denounces them as traitors, calls for his guards to kill them only for them to be killed by Kaze who had just arrived to help Corrin. The chapter would then end with Corrin, the sisters and their retainers, and Kaze out of the palace and in the wilderness. After getting over the shock of what happened, Corrin the tells them that there is no turning back now; now is the time to gather allies and power and overthrow Garon before his invasion of Hoshido can begin in earnest.

The rest of the game would deal with Corrin and company launching a guerilla rebellion against Nohr, gathering allies, and trying to convince the brothers to join them.

Not yet sure on how to work Hoshido into that scenario.

[arvilino]

I think it's mentioned they have occasional border skirmishes but Nohrian forces can't enter Hoshido proper until after Mikoto dies because of her magic barrier.

Garon tells Corrin is that they're at war with Hoshido during Chapter 2. With only Mikoto's barrier meaning that Nohr couldn't invade Hoshido, the war wasn't triggered during the events of the game.

[NekoKnight]

Garon tells Corrin is that they're at war with Hoshido during Chapter 2. With only Mikoto's barrier meaning that Nohr couldn't invade Hoshido, the war wasn't triggered during the events of the game.

But what does "at war" mean if Nohrians can't enter Hoshido? Unless Hoshido is leading armies into Nohr, it's hard to describe their conflict an open war. The shocked reaction of the Hoshidans at the infinite chasm in chapter 3 seems to indicate that they don't regularly come into contact with Nohrian soldiers.

Edited February 5, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Time the Crestfallen]

But what does "at war" mean if Nohrians can't enter Hoshido? Unless Hoshido is leading armies into Nohr, it's hard to describe their conflict an open war. The shocked reaction of the Hoshidans at the infinite chasm in chapter 3 seems to indicate that they don't regularly come into contact with Nohrian soldiers.

But Garon mentions that Kaze and Rinkah were captured in the most recent skirmish with Hoshido, which would apply that the skirmishes are regular. I used to think the shock was because the fortresses were meant to be abandoned and the Hoshidans were thinking "oh shit, they're here too" but I realise Garon was probably sending him to an active fortress so I have no idea what's happening with that. Also, while Nohrian soldiers can't enter Hoshido, they can still send the Faceless through.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Phillius

[Raybrand]

I liked Kamui's reasoning for joining Nohr in chapter 6, but you are constantly just following Garon's orders the whole campaign instead of trying to find a peaceful compromise between two nations or investigate the truth/Garon's suspicious behaviour and reason for the war. When Kamui does discover that the king is a fake (only by pure coincidence because you antecedently spot Aqua and wonder into the invisible kingdom) Kamui does nothing until the last few chapters where a lot of damage is done to Hoshido. Kamui should have just told his siblings there and then using Aqua's song as evidence that Garon is not himself and made a plan together instead of waiting till they destroyed Hoshido's military power and nearly killing all of Kamui's Hoshido siblings.

[B.Leu]

Well, here's one way that I came up with to make it a bit better.

In the chapter after making your choice, Corrin comes back to Nohr and Garon orders them on that suicide mission. Corrin, after being a unknowing part to kill Mikoto and surviving that explosion combined with how they have been treated by Garon throughout their lives, has had enough of his shit, draws out Yato, and challenges Garon to try and kill them now rather than having someone else do it.

The Nohr siblings would be shocked at this blatant rebellion and Garon pissed at this display. Corrin explains why they are doing this: That they did not appreciate being made a weapon to kill their mother, that though they love the Nohr siblings and did return to Nohr out of love for them, they want revenge for how Garon has treated them and their mother's death. They also state that unlike Xander, they do not hold out hope that Garon would return to normal when Hoshido is conquered, and if that were the case Garon must still answer for his crimes. Corrin then says that they know what they are doing is suicidal, but if this shall be the end for them, then they are taking Garon with them.

It would then lead to a duel between Corrin and Garon, with the Nohr siblings imploring them to stop, Garon threatening them to stay out of the duel or they will die, and Corrin bringing up all of the happy times they've had with the Nohr siblings while also appealing to their hearts and minds about the just cause of this little rebellion.

The duel lasts until Corrin can no longer fight, and before Garon strikes the final blow, Camilla stands between them and blocks the blow while Elise heals Corrin. Xander and Leo are now at a loss for words as the sisters take Corrin out of the palace with their retainers helping them as well. Garon denounces them as traitors, calls for his guards to kill them only for them to be killed by Kaze who had just arrived to help Corrin. The chapter would then end with Corrin, the sisters and their retainers, and Kaze out of the palace and in the wilderness. After getting over the shock of what happened, Corrin the tells them that there is no turning back now; now is the time to gather allies and power and overthrow Garon before his invasion of Hoshido can begin in earnest.

The rest of the game would deal with Corrin and company launching a guerilla rebellion against Nohr, gathering allies, and trying to convince the brothers to join them.

Not yet sure on how to work Hoshido into that scenario.

Your avatar is awesome, Your text is awesome. What you are saying is awesome.

In other words, this is the good stuff. Plus I believe that Nohr was advertised as such, a rebellion.

And seriously. Kamui who say 'Fuck it, I'll do it even if I die', dueling, talking about all the good moment them and their siblings add, it's just awesome; And you give Kaze an actual reason to join Kamui other 'lulbelieve you'.

Holy crap, I'am gushing, but it is so worth it. It just fulfil all of my fetish, even the shonen talk just tingle me !

Where's the 'I came' meme ? I need one.

[Sasori]

My opinion may not be 100% accurate since its easy to get soured when you read things on the internet, instead of experiencing something yourself, but my irritation doesn't come from the story being bad, but rather the story being a complete waste. I can deal with contrived and stupid things like the crystal ball plotpoint as long as it leads to interesting stuff later on. Bravely Default for example had a story filled with idiots and bad descisions, but I still grealty enjoyed it. I don't get that impression with Conquest yet.

Conquest has one major problem that soured me on the story a bit. Garon is such a black hole villain that he manages to suck everything interesting out of the story completely. Why do the Nohr siblings fight? Because daddy wants. Why does Nohr invade? Because Garon wants it. From what i've read I never got the impression that either the Nohr siblings or Nohr itself are allowed to have any sort of stance on the war. They fight because of Garon and his two mustache twirling buddies.

There's some lip service to Nohr being dirt poor, but Garon and the story doesn't really seem to use it as a motivational tool for either the siblings or his country. Leon's a pretty pragmatic guy so could't he at least be somewhat on board because Nohr could use the spoils of war, even if its through gritted teeth? Xander desperately needs some non daddy related stance for supporting the war as well.

Anyway some nuance would be nice. I'm fine Hoshido being more in the right, but at the very least I want Nohr to be wrong with some motivation behind their actions, instead of just being wrong

Edited February 5, 2016 by Sasori

[BruceLee]

Well, here's one way that I came up with to make it a bit better.

In the chapter after making your choice, Corrin comes back to Nohr and Garon orders them on that suicide mission. Corrin, after being a unknowing part to kill Mikoto and surviving that explosion combined with how they have been treated by Garon throughout their lives, has had enough of his shit, draws out Yato, and challenges Garon to try and kill them now rather than having someone else do it.

The Nohr siblings would be shocked at this blatant rebellion and Garon pissed at this display. Corrin explains why they are doing this: That they did not appreciate being made a weapon to kill their mother, that though they love the Nohr siblings and did return to Nohr out of love for them, they want revenge for how Garon has treated them and their mother's death. They also state that unlike Xander, they do not hold out hope that Garon would return to normal when Hoshido is conquered, and if that were the case Garon must still answer for his crimes. Corrin then says that they know what they are doing is suicidal, but if this shall be the end for them, then they are taking Garon with them.

It would then lead to a duel between Corrin and Garon, with the Nohr siblings imploring them to stop, Garon threatening them to stay out of the duel or they will die, and Corrin bringing up all of the happy times they've had with the Nohr siblings while also appealing to their hearts and minds about the just cause of this little rebellion.

The duel lasts until Corrin can no longer fight, and before Garon strikes the final blow, Camilla stands between them and blocks the blow while Elise heals Corrin. Xander and Leo are now at a loss for words as the sisters take Corrin out of the palace with their retainers helping them as well. Garon denounces them as traitors, calls for his guards to kill them only for them to be killed by Kaze who had just arrived to help Corrin. The chapter would then end with Corrin, the sisters and their retainers, and Kaze out of the palace and in the wilderness. After getting over the shock of what happened, Corrin the tells them that there is no turning back now; now is the time to gather allies and power and overthrow Garon before his invasion of Hoshido can begin in earnest.

The rest of the game would deal with Corrin and company launching a guerilla rebellion against Nohr, gathering allies, and trying to convince the brothers to join them.

Not yet sure on how to work Hoshido into that scenario.

I like it! But yeah like you say, your story lacks a confrontation with Hoshido which apparently was what the writers cared more for than a proper story that makes sense.

My opinion may not be 100% accurate since its easy to get soured when you read things on the internet, instead of experiencing something yourself, but my irritation doesn't come from the story being bad, but rather the story being a complete waste. I can deal with contrived and stupid things like the crystal ball plotpoint as long as it leads to interesting stuff later on. Bravely Default for example had a story filled with idiots and bad descisions, but I still grealty enjoyed it. I don't get that impression with Conquest yet.

Conquest has one major problem that soured me on the story a bit. Garon is such a black hole villain that he manages to suck everything interesting out of the story completely. Why do the Nohr siblings fight? Because daddy wants. Why does Nohr invade? Because Garon wants it. From what i've read I never got the impression that either the Nohr siblings or Nohr itself are allowed to have any sort of stance on the war. They fight because of Garon and his two mustache twirling buddies.

There's some lip service to Nohr being dirt poor, but Garon and the story doesn't really seem to use it as a motivational tool for either the siblings or his country. Leon's a pretty pragmatic guy so could't he at least be somewhat on board because Nohr could use the spoils of war, even if its through gritted teeth? Xander desperately needs some non daddy related stance for supporting the war as well.

Anyway some nuance would be nice. I'm fine Hoshido being more in the right, but at the very least I want Nohr to be wrong with some motivation behind their actions, instead of just being wrong

Exactly. It's really stupid how they invade and kill just because their daddy tells them to.

[FluffyWarlock]

Well, that's where catering to the Japanese audience got them. I'd pick Fates, but I don't think I would anymore. Kind of a shame since I like playing Corrin in Smash.

[Sasori]

I like it! But yeah like you say, your story lacks a confrontation with Hoshido which apparently was what the writers cared more for than a proper story that makes sense.

Exactly. It's really stupid how they invade and kill just because their daddy tells them to.

If I had to guess I would say that the Nohr siblings react in that way because IS was scared to push the possibilities. I think they where scared about the Nohr siblings looking too morally questionable if they supported the Nohr/Hoshido conflict for ideological or pragmatic reasons. So to portray the Norh siblings as fundamentally good people they made them all against such things and are only your fighing against Hoshido because of their father.

I hope i'm wrong with that though and I still consider it a waste.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Sasori

[BruceLee]

If I had to guess I would say that the Nohr siblings react in that way because IS was scared to push the possibilities. I think they where scared about the Nohr siblings looking too morally questionable if they supported the Nohr/Hoshido conflict for ideological or pragmatic reasons. So to portray the Norh siblings as fundamentally good people they made them all against such things and are only your fighing against Hoshido because of their father.

I hope i'm wrong with that though and I still consider it a waste.

Whatever their reasoning was it has dragged the story down.

Edited February 6, 2016 by BruceLee

[NekoKnight]

If I had to guess I would say that the Nohr siblings react in that way because IS was scared to push the possibilities. I think they where scared about the Nohr siblings looking too morally questionable if they supported the Nohr/Hoshido conflict for ideological or pragmatic reasons. So to portray the Norh siblings as fundamentally good people they made them all against such things and are only your fighing against Hoshido because of their father.

I hope i'm wrong with that though and I still consider it a waste.

I think giving them ideological or pragmatic reasons would have made them more sympathetic, not less. When they support a clearly evil ruler for no other reason than "Daddy's orders", they seem like really scummy people regardless of how pleasant or moral they are on a personal level. Marx remains one of my most disliked characters in Fire Emblem because he's portrayed as a principled character but he doesn't fight for moral causes or pragmatic reasons. All the drama and tragedy related to him is his own damn fault.

Let's look at some other characters who suffer from this lack of pragmatic or ideological cause. I mentioned Harold before but how about the Awakening trio? These are people who we fought with to save the world in Awakening but now they're supporting a war of belligerence because...their masters ordered it? If anything, they should be fighting for Hoshido.

[FluffyWarlock]

I think giving them ideological or pragmatic reasons would have made them more sympathetic, not less. When they support a clearly evil ruler for no other reason than "Daddy's orders", they seem like really scummy people regardless of how pleasant or moral they are on a personal level. Marx remains one of my most disliked characters in Fire Emblem because he's portrayed as a principled character but he doesn't fight for moral causes or pragmatic reasons. All the drama and tragedy related to him is his own damn fault.

Let's look at some other characters who suffer from this lack of pragmatic or ideological cause. I mentioned Harold before but how about the Awakening trio? These are people who we fought with to save the world in Awakening but now they're supporting a war of belligerence because...their masters ordered it? If anything, they should be fighting for Hoshido.

That's cultural posturing to you. Make the fantasy counterpart of your country look all saintly and stuff and make the another side look like sadists.

[NekoKnight]

That's cultural posturing to you. Make the fantasy counterpart of your country look all saintly and stuff and make the another side look like sadists.

Well, there is culturally posturing as well but the point of my post is to say that many Nohrians, main characters and minor characters alike, are portrayed as moral on a personal level but still supporting an evil cause.

[Pixelman]

Well, there is culturally posturing as well but the point of my post is to say that many Nohrians, main characters and minor characters alike, are portrayed as moral on a personal level but still supporting an evil cause.

Wouldn't they get killed if they disobey the king's orders though?

[BruceLee]

Wouldn't they get killed if they disobey the king's orders though?

I keep seeing this excuse. It's like people think you're only two options are to either spit in the king's face and get yourself killed or actively participate in his invasion.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I keep seeing this excuse. It's like people think you're only two options are to either spit in the king's face and get yourself killed or actively participate in his invasion.

I drop my trousers and piss on the King

The excuse is accurate though, as Iago and Hans are not afraid to break out the 'Garon's orders' whenever the protagonists suggest maybe not committing a war crime. Not to mention that Gooron would probably execute someone if they made his tea with one lump of sugar instead of two for daring to disobey the king's orders.

[BruceLee]

I drop my trousers and piss on the King

The excuse is accurate though, as Iago and Hans are not afraid to break out the 'Garon's orders' whenever the protagonists suggest maybe not committing a war crime. Not to mention that Gooron would probably execute someone if they made his tea with one lump of sugar instead of two for daring to disobey the king's orders.

Then the protagonists should get themselves out of that situation. If you don't want to commit war crimes then don't roll with a squad that commit's war crimes.