Does anyone else get irritated by the Nohr story? *possible spoilers*

[Thane]

I believe the first thing I did when I was done with the two paths back in early July was to make a thread discussing Nohr's story, hoping that it was my poor Japanese that led me to thinking the story was so thoroughly horrible, but no.

Just wait until you get to Revelations.

[BruceLee]

Xander's stupidity is what it kills it for me. There's only so much bullshit I can take.

It is really bad.

I believe the first thing I did when I was done with the two paths back in early July was to make a thread discussing Nohr's story, hoping that it was my poor Japanese that led me to thinking the story was so thoroughly horrible, but no.

Just wait until you get to Revelations.

Are you saying Revelations is even worse than Nohr? I haven't really looked into it.

Edited February 8, 2016 by BruceLee

[Thane]

It is really bad.

Are you saying Revelations is even worse than Nohr? I haven't really looked into it.

Well, yes and no. Both have a lot of problems, but Revelations' seeps into the other paths. That's why I was so shocked when GameXplain showed major, major spoilers in their 30 minute stream.

[arvilino]

Sorry for going off-topic a little, but our hopes of the localisation doing anything major to try and fix the story have been dashed.

On the gameXplain Revelation stream, Azura mentions the Valla curse. You know, the one that kills you if you mention Valla outside of it.

I never really saw what's truly wrong with a plot point of

Hidden Kingdom protecting itself with a curse that helps keep itself a secret and Mikoto a princess of that Kingdom to have a similar effect with Hoshido's barrier

• It's a plot device with a purpose that would be understandable even without the games plot
• A known source of power behind it
• Other examples of similar power being utilised from the same source

• How a whole kingdom could remain secret to pretty much everyone who isn't from there, even if the game's story was completley different the curse would still have a purpose.
• Anankos' power
• Mikoto's Barrier and Anankos who taught the people of the Invisible kingdom

To contrast it with other things in Fire Emblem. There's the Blood Pact where it literally comes out of no where with no real explanation or precedent and has great power with no definable source. The way the original Akanenian Fire Emblem worked before Awakening, Which is from Naga

but the requirement to have the Orbs in it combined with the value of the orbs and the power of the Dark Orb basically makes the events of FE3 inevitable because it gives a lot of reason to remove the Orbs and weaken the seal.

[RJWalker]

It's a stupid plot device. More so than the Blood Pact could ever hope to be. That's what's wrong with it.

[arvilino]

It's a stupid plot device. More so than the Blood Pact could ever hope to be. That's what's wrong with it.

It's a more solid plot device than the two other examples I gave with the reasons I provided, especially the Blood Pact and it's certainly less contrived than a plot device that sets itself up to fail.

Anything other than "It's bad because it's bad"?

[Time the Crestfallen]

It's a more solid plot device than the two other examples I gave with the reasons I provided, especially the Blood Pact and it's certainly less contrived than a plot device that sets itself up to fail.

Anything other than "It's bad because it's bad"?

More solid than the Blood Pact isn't anything to brag about. Just because the curse isn't as bad as two other bad plot devices doesn't make it good, it just means it isn't as bad. Anyway, I wouldn't be able to make a case against it as well as others would be able to, but the main issues seem to be that it (like the Blood Pact) is a lazy and poorly-written way to prolong the conflict and that it (along with most things about Revelation) has a negative impact on all three stories.

[Thane]

It's a more solid plot device than the two other examples I gave with the reasons I provided, especially the Blood Pact and it's certainly less contrived than a plot device that sets itself up to fail.

Anything other than "It's bad because it's bad"?

How about it's the only reason why there's a "conflict" in the first place, thereby invalidating two thirds of the game. Not to mention it makes Azura, Severa, Inigo and Owain look like utter morons for knowing about it yet doing less than nothing to inform everyone else and happily indulge in invading Hoshido; it's by pure chance Azura decides to indulge Corrin, and we're never given a reason as to why she doesn't just slap people across the face and drag them towards the valley/lake in Nohr and show them Valla.

That curse and Hydra completely remove the human element from the story, since no one in Nohr or Hoshido has any reason to fight, which means there's absolutely zero complexity to the entire story.

[Fyras4]

I'm going with the assumption that war was started beyond the normal 'somethingsomething' did it.

As for the curse thing...well...going to play the game first before I make a judgement on it.

[Thane]

I'm going with the assumption that war was started beyond the normal 'somethingsomething' did it.

As for the curse thing...well...going to play the game first before I make a judgement on it.

[spoiler=GameXplain Revelations stream]It's outright stated that Anankos is behind the entire conflict like five minutes into Revelations. Whatever hope you have of this game having a shred of complexity will just lead to disappointment.

[Sasori]

It's a more solid plot device than the two other examples I gave with the reasons I provided, especially the Blood Pact and it's certainly less contrived than a plot device that sets itself up to fail.

Anything other than "It's bad because it's bad"?

I do think the 'bubble curse' is a bit more solid when compared to to the blood pact, but I still prefer the blood pact. Both are contrived, but the blood pact as least leaded to an interesting situation where your two armies clashed against each other.

The bubble curse seems to exist just so they can neglect to tell you stuff. I can suffer through contrived stuff as long as long as the results are somewhat good, but I don't get that impression from the blood curse.

I also can't get over just how silly it sounds. I mean a curse that can make any person suddenly drop dead and one that becomes worse as time goes on sounds somewhat intimidating and creepy. Dying by turning into bubbles sounds a bit laughable. I know they have a water thing going, but still.

[Fyras4]

[spoiler=GameXplain Revelations stream]It's outright stated that Anankos is behind the entire conflict like five minutes into Revelations. Whatever hope you have of this game having a shred of complexity will just lead to disappointment.

Well...I wasn't expecting too much complexity, to be honest.

Although if that's all there is to it, well...nah, I'll just enjoy the game for what it is, not for what is trying to be.

Dying by turning into bubbles sounds a bit laughable. I know they have a water thing going, but still.

I thought they were using the old tale of the Little Mermaid, though...when she turns into bubbles (or was it foam) when she can't make the prince fall in love with her.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Fyras4

[arvilino]

How about it's the only reason why there's a "conflict" in the first place, thereby invalidating two thirds of the game. Not to mention it makes Azura, Severa, Inigo and Owain look like utter morons for knowing about it yet doing less than nothing to inform everyone else and happily indulge in invading Hoshido; it's by pure chance Azura decides to indulge Corrin, and we're never given a reason as to why she doesn't just slap people across the face and drag them towards the valley/lake in Nohr and show them Valla.

That curse and Hydra completely remove the human element from the story, since no one in Nohr or Hoshido has any reason to fight, which means there's absolutely zero complexity to the entire story.

The idea that they have no reason to fight just simply isn't correct, both sides do things that would make the other hate them it's been mentioned a lot in this and previous threads but it's formed around the notion the war starts during the game as opposed to before.By the start of the game both Hoshido and Nohr are at war and are enemies. Garon's original personality change was from factors outside of Anankos(considering his posession of Takumi was about his anger and amplifying it, something had to be some intent or ambition there to begin with which is supported by chapter 28 of Hoshido).

Revelations also shows that most characters aren't immediately ready to trust the claim of a "true" enemy, curse or not revealing it to anyone who doesn't trust her on that side for her would immediately end any chance of the conflict stopping, same with if any one they showed ended up turning into bubbles. It's the same with her original plan. if the chapter 14 dance/song worked on Garon then anyone else knowing would just be a liability, no one needed to know in order for her to attempt the plan. There certaintly complexity in even this element since the route determines how much Azura believes she needs to tell other people and who, like why she's ok showing Leon the Orb in Birthright but not Nohr. Just saying there isn't complexity doesn't mean there isn't, hell I recall an early criticism was that it was too convoluted yet apparently the exact opposite is true now? Not in the slightest.

Edited February 8, 2016 by arvilino

[Thane]

The idea that they have no reason to fight just simply isn't correct, both sides do things that would make the other hate them it's been mentioned a lot in this and previous threads but it's formed around the notion the war starts during the game as opposed to before.By the start of the game both Hoshido and Nohr are at war and are enemies. Garon's original personality change was from factors outside of Anankos(considering his posession of Takumi was about his anger and amplifying it, something had to be some intent or ambition there to begin with which is supported by chapter 28 of Hoshido).

Revelations also shows that most characters aren't immediately ready to trust the claim of a "true" enemy, curse or not revealing it to anyone who doesn't trust her on that side for her would immediately end any chance of the conflict stopping, same with if any one they showed ended up turning into bubbles. It's the same with her original plan. if the dance/song worked on Garon then anyone else knowing would just be a liability. There certaintly complexity in even this element since the route determines how much Azura believes she needs to tell other people and who, like why she's ok showing Leon the Orb in Birthright but not Nohr. Just saying there isn't complexity doesn't mean there isn't, hell I recall an early criticism was that it was too convoluted yet apparently the exact opposite is true now? Not in the slightest.

You seem to mistake "complexity" for "convoluted". The two are not mutually exclusive. Azura and Corrin's "plan" in Conquest is still convoluted yet is not complex in the slightest, for instance.

And again, you seem to be speculating a lot. We know next to nothing about how Garon was before the slime monster came; for all we know the slime monster started out slowly as to not rouse suspicion; at this point we simply cannot say for certain what happened or what kind of person Garon was other than the fact that he was a good yet very scary man, as put by Xander.

People aren't ready to believe the enemy because of the plot curse and because Corrin runs up to people who believed he betrayed them and asks them to trust him without any further explanation. Once it's been made clear what's going on, everyone's onboard and any amount of tension dissipates. Fates always takes the easy way out and chooses not to dwell on the logical questions that would follow, such as what happens to the areas conquered by Nohr, what do the average soldier have to say, what are the siblings' thoughts on Garon when they're wandering around Valla since they know he worships Anankos, etc.

How would they be liabilities to Azura for knowing about Valla? Also, she knows better than anyone else that Anankos needs to be stopped and even comes back from beyond the grave to tell the player not to fuck up next time. Furthermore, she spills the beans within five minutes of Revelations, meaning that she could've done that at any other point during the other paths but didn't.

[Sunwoo]

Personally, I preferred the Blood Pact over the Touma curse, for one simple reason - how the characters react to it for me.

Don't get me wrong, both are pretty stupid. But I liked that the Blood Pact showed different sides of certain characters, let us see what they would do and how they would respond in the face of desperation. It showed how Pelleas was a weak and naive king to sign such a thing, but he was also a true king in that he was willing to pay the ultimate price to set things right. We saw how far Micaiah would go to protect the country she loved, even if she didn't believe in the war and it was exhausting her. If anything, the Blood Pact was good at drawing character reactions.

The Touma curse doesn't even do that. It exists pretty much to make three paths exist and for us to waste more money on this game three times. The most reaction the Touma curse ever draws is "who believes Kamui and who doesn't, and what'll it take for the non-believers to believe Kamui". Not to mention that RD's Blood Pact was pretty much constrained to its own game. Touma curse, despite being revealed in Revelations, affects and fucks up the other two paths, especially Conquest. So I think it's even worse than the Blood Pact.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Sunwoo

[NekoKnight]

The bubble curse could have been an interesting addition if Azura (and the Awakening trio) was shown repeatedly trying to get people to learn about IK but failing for whatever reason. Instead Azura is extremely passive and deliberately secretive which has serious consequences for Hoshido in Conquest. There were many chances for Azura to get at least Kamui to IK but she doesn't even try. The plots of two 3rd of the game are a (negative) consequence of Azura's inaction.

Don't get me wrong, both are pretty stupid. But I liked that the Blood Pact showed different sides of certain characters, let us see what they would do and how they would respond in the face of desperation. It showed how Pelleas was a weak and naive king to sign such a thing, but he was also a true king in that he was willing to pay the ultimate price to set things right. We saw how far Micaiah would go to protect the country she loved, even if she didn't believe in the war and it was exhausting her. If anything, the Blood Pact was good at drawing character reactions.

Indeed. The blood pact was extremely contrived but the results of it were interesting at least. I wouldn't have minded the blood pacts as much if they were better explained/foreshadowed.

Edited February 9, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Time the Crestfallen]

The story probably would've worked better if, instead of not being allowed to tell anyone, Corrin/Azura tried to tell people but no one believed them.

"Hey guys! It turns out there's this third kingdom that has been manipulating both Nohr and Hoshido from behind the scenes. The soldiers are all Invisible Demons and the leader is a Dragon-God, so we should work together and take them out. Don't worry, I can take you guys there, all you have to do is jump into this bottomless pit with me an- wait, where are you going?!"

And then after they throw it back in your face the next few chapters are about finding conclusive proof that it exists or something. At the very least, Mikoto/Azura/Awakening Trio's silence could be written off as no-one believing her and being written off as insane.

[NekoKnight]

The story probably would've worked better if, instead of not being allowed to tell anyone, Corrin/Azura tried to tell people but no one believed them.

"Hey guys! It turns out there's this third kingdom that has been manipulating both Nohr and Hoshido from behind the scenes. The soldiers are all Invisible Demons and the leader is a Dragon-God, so we should work together and take them out. Don't worry, I can take you guys there, all you have to do is jump into this bottomless pit with me an- wait, where are you going?!"

And then after they throw it back in your face the next few chapters are about finding conclusive proof that it exists or something. At the very least, Mikoto/Azura/Awakening Trio's silence could be written off as no-one believing her and being written off as insane.

One problem with that is that while it might be understandable if other characters don't believe Azura, the player would be inclined to believe her. Either Azura is ignored (to the frustration of the players) or she is believed and we can just skip Birthright and Conquest.

[Time the Crestfallen]

One problem with that is that while it might be understandable if other characters don't believe Azura, the player would be inclined to believe her. Either Azura is ignored (to the frustration of the players) or she is believed and we can just skip Birthright and Conquest.

Well I never said it was a perfect idea...

The third path has the same problem Valm did in Awakening; they're both perfectly valid ideas and could've made entire games by themselves, but having to share time impacts both it and the other routes/arcs negatively. Revelation suffers in the presence of Birthright and Conquest because there isn't enough time to properly flesh out the history of Valla, the curse and Anankos and co. outside of how they impact the other routes while the other two routes suffer because Revelations undermines the conflict of both of them by being the canon route and ruins the central themes (not to mention making everyone who knows about Valla look like an idiot for not doing anything about it).

It's the same problem with Awakening, both Plegia/Ylisse (Sinister cult manipulating a bitter and hateful nation into a war as a cover to resurrect the evil dragon and time travelling kids from a future that suffered the consequences) and Valm (Conqueror wants to free man from their slavery to old ideals and dragons, but goes to far trying to do so) are perfectly capable of filling an entire game by themselves, but together there isn't enough time to really establish anything and Valm seems like a waste of time with no real impact on the plot.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Phillius

[Raybrand]

The story probably would've worked better if, instead of not being allowed to tell anyone, Corrin/Azura tried to tell people but no one believed them.

"Hey guys! It turns out there's this third kingdom that has been manipulating both Nohr and Hoshido from behind the scenes. The soldiers are all Invisible Demons and the leader is a Dragon-God, so we should work together and take them out. Don't worry, I can take you guys there, all you have to do is jump into this bottomless pit with me an- wait, where are you going?!"

And then after they throw it back in your face the next few chapters are about finding conclusive proof that it exists or something. At the very least, Mikoto/Azura/Awakening Trio's silence could be written off as no-one believing her and being written off as insane.

I would have been more satisfied if they at least tried to go down this path, Xander comes of as a reasonable guy and the other siblings respect Kamui enough to hear him and know him well enough that he would not make something like this up. Then when they pay attention they will actually notice when their father lets out an evil laugh

[Alazen]

The Touma Curse and Blood Pact are both cheap excuses to railroad the lead characters into select directions. Both of them raise logistical questions.

Honestly, Aqua is a faulty character (expositionbot) and Touma in practice really drags down the setting. The narrative would be better served by at least scrapping Aqua.

[Time the Crestfallen]

The Touma Curse and Blood Pact are both cheap excuses to railroad the lead characters into select directions. Both of them raise logistical questions.

Honestly, Aqua is a faulty character (expositionbot) and Touma in practice really drags down the setting. The narrative would be better served by at least scrapping Aqua.

U fukin wot m8?! Yer 1 cheeky bugger, aren't ya? 1v1 me in a steel cage match bruh, I'll put u in the fukin ground I swear on me mums!

Edited February 9, 2016 by Phillius

[B.Leu]

Honestly, Aqua is a faulty character (expositionbot) and Touma in practice really drags down the setting. The narrative would be better served by at least scrapping Aqua.

And that's when you remember the dragon transformation scene and that it would've been so much better for everyone if Kamui had ripped Aqua's throat with his claws.

Aaaah... a man can dream.

Edited February 9, 2016 by B.Leu

[Namarid]

Maybe I'm missing something,but what would Azura showing the IK to one royal family accomplished? Correct me if I'm wrong but in order for Corrin to beat Anankos they would of needed the combination of the 5 divine weapons, which would of only been possible if they had the cooperation of both royal families.

If Azura showed the hoshidan family and then they decided to gain support from the nohrian royal family I highly doubt it would of worked. Hostility between the countries was high and Xander would of opposed them no matter what eventually leading to his death and the loss of a divine weapon. On the Nohr side, convincing the hoshidan family of their good intentions would of been even harder because of how Nohr has treated their country.

If any family tried to take on Anankos without the fully upgraded yato, they would of mostly been wiped out. I don't see the point in telling just one family the truth. I'm probably forgetting things though.

[arvilino]

The bubble curse could have been an interesting addition if Azura (and the Awakening trio) was shown repeatedly trying to get people to learn about IK but failing for whatever reason. Instead Azura is extremely passive and deliberately secretive which has serious consequences for Hoshido in Conquest. There were many chances for Azura to get at least Kamui to IK but she doesn't even try. The plots of two 3rd of the game are a (negative) consequence of Azura's inaction.

Indeed. The blood pact was extremely contrived but the results of it were interesting at least. I wouldn't have minded the blood pacts as much if they were better explained/foreshadowed.

There isn't much point in Azura attempting to get Corrin to Valla in any route but Revelations since neither of those are her plan in either Birthright or Conquest, it's only Revelations in which Corrin makes a suitable decision for it to happen. Plus all three endings are overall positive resolutions to the situation with sacrifices that the game and characters do acknowledge but ultimately resulting in peace.

This is because in each route Azura goal is attempting to fulfil one of the three Anankos' prophecies of his defeat, in the song she sings.

I mentioned it in regards to Thane's post that telling the characters is just a liability because in Birthright or Conquest most characters learning about Valla wouldn't effect much and worst case a risk that could ruin any chance of a positive resolution. e.g. if Corrin, Xander, Leon, Takumi or Ryoma mentioned Valla outside of it and vanished into bubbles or someone didn't trust them and ratted them out during Conquest. In short loose lips sinks ships and what the characters learn is what they need to know during each route to achieve peace.

I think the way this was handled is a good choice in each main game story since, they could easily bog down the game if they loaded every route with a ton of tertiary information and a tell-all from Azura in routes where the information isn't as important.

Edited February 9, 2016 by arvilino