Does anyone else have a hard time choosing Nohr (conquest)?

[Thane]

Personally, I wasn't too offended by the contrivance when I first got there. But chapter 16 (especially the title) was what did it for me. Like... wtf.

Wait, what is it called? "Let's not mention this shit to anyone ever"? 'Cause that would've been not only incredibly frustrating but also very true.

[saisymbolic]

But given the way the two countries are set up, the game isn't really wrong. They have their flaws, but still "the good guys," since Nohr is clearly the aggressor, and as far as we know, Hoshido hasn't done anything to deserve it. "The good side" doesn't have to be perfect.

I think the problem stems more from the narrative than the kingdom, then. I expected a grey morality scheme. One cannot set up a grey morality scheme when one of the forces is painted in a better light than the other with no apparent wrongdoings. Hoshido has none of the problems Nohr has, neither story wise or in-universe wise. When people point out a flaw in Hoshido, its kind of like having a perfect sibling and, when they mess up, you go, "HA! I knew you weren't perfect! Now if only everyone else would see it..."​

That is why, as much as I love Fates, I believe needs an entire rewrite to drop this whole "good vs. evil" mess. The fans' rift between Hoshido and Nohr is starting to resemble the NaruSaku vs NaruHina rift in the Naruto fandom and I swear I am starting to get some serious, triggering flashbacks from that whole disaster.

[Tsuky]

Wait, what is it called? "Let's not mention this shit to anyone ever"? 'Cause that would've been not only incredibly frustrating but also very true.

I think that would've been a fitting title for the chapter before, but the one I'm talking about is

[spoiler=] Invading Hoshido

Yeah, nice and straighforward. And everything only goes downhill from there.

I think the problem stems more from the narrative than the kingdom, then. I expected a grey morality scheme. One cannot set up a grey morality scheme when one of the forces is painted in a better light than the other with no apparent wrongdoings. Hoshido has none of the problems Nohr has, neither story wise or in-universe wise. When people point out a flaw in Hoshido, its kind of like having a perfect sibling and, when they mess up, you go, "HA! I knew you weren't perfect! Now if only everyone else would see it..."​

That is why, as much as I love Fates, I believe needs an entire rewrite to drop this whole "good vs. evil" mess. The fans' rift between Hoshido and Nohr is starting to resemble the NaruSaku vs NaruHina rift in the Naruto fandom and I swear I am starting to get some serious, triggering flashbacks from that whole disaster.

Right. I also disagree with the approach that they took with the "good vs. evil," but unfortunately, that's what we have right now. I'm just not a fan of people nitpicking on Hoshido and justifying Nohr through that. I think we should just all accept that in the context of the current narrative, it's wrong to pick Nohr if you were Corrin. Now, as a player, you are, of course, still free to love Nohr and no one will judge you for it.

Ah, Naruto, brings back so many unpleasant memories... And this is coming from an avid follower for 10 years.

[Thane]

I think that would've been a fitting title for the chapter before, but the one I'm talking about is

[spoiler=] Invading Hoshido

Yeah, nice and straighforward. And everything only goes downhill from there.

WELP, that'll do it. Now that you mention it, I do believe my exact reaction was "wait whaaa?" when playing through it. I thought there was a bigger gap between the two, so maybe I'm thinking about a third big "oh come on, really?" moment.

[FlameUser64]

Going back to the whole gray morality thing. People want gray morality, right? Then why is it that when Hoshido is shown to have flaws, people pounce on it, while Nohr can get away with morally questionable actions? And what reason do they have to not antagonize Nohr and the Nohrian siblings? As far as they can tell, the Nohrian siblings are actively aiding Garon in, you know, invading their country. Yeah, no big deal.

The idea that you suggested for the ending to Conquest would've been pretty nice to implement, but... IS is stupid and that's not even close to what happens.

I'm not pouncing on Hoshido. This is me defending Hoshido. I like that they have flaws and aren't entirely as perfect and "pure" as they claim. Maybe the game's trying to force-feed the idea that they are… or maybe it's Unreliable Narrator at work. Based on what I've seen so far (up to Chapter 10 of Birthright), I'm actually inclined to believe the latter.

As for them not antagonizing the Nohrian siblings, it's a case of basic diplomacy. They should know based on the conversations they've already had with Corrin that he has some attachment to the Nohrians. So if they want him to come back, maybe it would be best to sugarcoat things just a little? Obviously that's wishful thinking considering what happened, and I can't actually fault them for being way too angry to consider diplomacy.

Edited February 22, 2016 by FlameUser64

[saisymbolic]

I think that would've been a fitting title for the chapter before, but the one I'm talking about is

[spoiler=] Invading Hoshido

Yeah, nice and straighforward. And everything only goes downhill from there.

My eyebrows went up actually after the Chapter 15 battle. When Azura was like

"Well, seeing as how we can't mention any of the shit that just went down in that other world to anyone and I just wasted this one-time crystal thing to show you, there's no way ANYONE will believe us. The only other option is to conquer Hoshido to make your slimy ass daddy sit on the golden throne so we can prove to your idiot siblings that he's a slimy ass daddy."

Like, what just happened?

Edited February 22, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Thane]

My eyebrows went up actually after the Chapter 15 battle. When Azura was like

"Well, seeing as how we can't mention any of the shit that just went down in that other world to anyone so there's no way they'll believe us and I just wasted this one-time crystal thing to show you, we may as well invade Hoshido to make your slimy ass daddy sit on the golden throne so we can prove to your idiot siblings that he's a slimy ass monster.

Like, what just happened?

Bad writing happened. How far have you gotten, because it gets worse.

[saisymbolic]

Bad writing happened. How far have you gotten, because it gets worse.

Just now starting Chapter 20. Like, I just burst out laughing at that point.

Dis gon be gud.

[Tsuky]

Just now starting Chapter 20. Like, I just burst out laughing at that point.

Dis gon be gud.

I went back and reviewed my stuff cuz I was forgetting the details, and I can't stop laughing.

[spoiler=] Fuga, you are a terrible friend. Wonder how you'd feel when you find out that your best friend's two sons both died because you let Nohrians through your territory.

Can't wait until Garon, Iago, and Hans join the parade.

[saisymbolic]

I went back and reviewed my stuff cuz I was forgetting the details, and I can't stop laughing.

[spoiler=] Fuga, you are a terrible friend. Wonder how you'd feel when you find out that your best friend's two sons both died because you let Nohrians through your territory.

Can't wait until Garon, Iago, and Hans join the parade.

As a random youtube commenter posted on a video I once watched oh so eloquently said,

dumb ass f*ck

[Medeus]

My eyebrows went up actually after the Chapter 15 battle. When Azura was like

"Well, seeing as how we can't mention any of the shit that just went down in that other world to anyone so there's no way they'll believe us and I just wasted this one-time crystal thing to show you, we may as well invade Hoshido to make your slimy ass daddy sit on the golden throne so we can prove to your idiot siblings that he's a slimy ass monster.

Like, what just happened?

When I got to that point, I had to stop and count out all of the things wrong with that as I was just completely baffled.

[Thane]

The people who don't read the spoilers must be so confused and tempted right now.

[Tsuky]

As a random youtube commenter posted on a video I once watched oh so eloquently said,

dumb ass f*ck

Can't think of a better way to put it.

The people who don't read the spoilers must be so confused and tempted right now.

ikr, but hopefully this will tempt more people to think critically about the story.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Tsuky

[saisymbolic]

My eyebrows went up actually after the Chapter 15 battle. When Azura was like

"Well, seeing as how we can't mention any of the shit that just went down in that other world to anyone and I just wasted this one-time crystal thing to show you, there's no way ANYONE will believe us. The only other option is to conquer Hoshido to make your slimy ass daddy sit on the golden throne so we can prove to your idiot siblings that he's a slimy ass daddy.

Like, what just happened?

I accidentally quoted myself. LOL.

At any rate, the story is...interesting.

Edited February 22, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[SSbardock84]

Honestly choosing the Conquest route just makes more sense than choosing Birthright.

[Katryn]

Here's my take on why Hoshido gets body-slammed by a lot of people, and why Nohr gets defended;

The game flat out tells you that you've done the right thing choosing Hoshido, and (based on what fragments I'm getting from you guys) runs your face through the mud for choosing Nohr. Further, the design aesthetics, the fact that Hoshido's characters are extremely calm (normally / natively) while Nohr's characters are fifty shades effed up is a design theme that is stated again and again. There are some people who will be totally fine with this and go forward with no expectations. But there are also some people who will not.

I don't necessarily think we needed gray morality. I do think we needed Corrin's growth and reactions to be less used as a praise or punishment tool. There are lots of ways to more deftly imply that something is "right" or "wrong" than what we get here. And I totally don't blame people for trying to find the clinks in Hoshido's armor, or being drawn to the good qualities that can be found in Nohr. To ignore these things, or worse yet to try and seem like they don't exist / wish they didn't exist, would only lead to a deeper level of bad writing.

And it is really a shame that the bad writing that is here *is* here because there's a lot of great stuff on the surface.

Is Corrin wrong for siding with Nohr? Sure. But the thing that must always be remembered is that Corrin does not (or more importantly SHOULD NOT know that. If bad things happen and Corrin eventually regrets it that's one thing--hindsight is 20 / 20 (and to be clear I haven't started Conquest at all at this point.) But equally... possibly even moreso.... damaging is the immediate certainty that Hoshido Corrin has that she or he has done what is right.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: How did Garon allow him or her to ever develop the morality it would take to be able to immediately determine this? (Bad, bad, bad character design on Garon's part. That's how. He suffers from "stupid villain syndrome" and "bad to be bad" syndrome for sure.)

Someone mentioned Zola earlier and I'll say this from Birthright route: he is 1,000 times the character Garon is and he only has three or four scenes in the script. He shows layers of depth despite being an "evil" character and though his part is small, it is memorable and despite him being my enemy, I felt for him. He was weird, sneaky and quirky but his demise ultimately came because of a single act of compassion. (I suppose it's not 100% sure he wouldn't have died, but whether or not that would have happened is speculation.)

My point is that IS is capable of interesting depth and character design. They just have a really bad habit of not doing that with their primary villains (Ashnard, Gangrel (whom I'm aware was only for part of a campaign, but he fits), Garon, etc.

I'm looking forward to actually playing Conquest so i can weigh in further, but for now I'm only on Chapter 13 of Birthright, so that'll be a while. :)

[Seanp12]

Gangrel actually did have depth, the problem is that you never knew that until he wasn't the villain anymore. I'd almost like to have some spotpass characters if it would just give a little bit of depth to some of these characters. I haven't played yet, but it's really discouraging to hear everythings so black and white when we were told it wouldn't be.

[Sunwoo]

As much as I'm not fond of Hoshido's cultural posturing, I find it rather ironic that people get all up in arms when it's the "other" culture that is doing the posturing. The U.S. and the western world does plenty of cultural posturing in its own damn media and, even worse, in its history books. But since it's "us", that's okay! Hoshido, being fantasy Japan, is not "us" and clearly it's bad when they do it.

Sometimes, I think people would be perfectly fine if it were Nohr that could do no wrong in the game instead of Hoshido. That's what a lot of people's attitudes here are saying to me anyway.

[Tsuky]

Is Corrin wrong for siding with Nohr? Sure. But the thing that must always be remembered is that Corrin does not (or more importantly SHOULD NOT know that. If bad things happen and Corrin eventually regrets it that's one thing--hindsight is 20 / 20 (and to be clear I haven't started Conquest at all at this point.) But equally... possibly even moreso.... damaging is the immediate certainty that Hoshido Corrin has that she or he has done what is right.

It's not even a problem of hindsight, though. What I (and I'm sure some others) are mad about is that Corrin pretty much immediately decided to go along with Azura's stupid plan after that stupid contrivance. No sane person would think that's an acceptable plan for "bringing peace to both nations," and one certainly doesn't need to know the future to realize that the plan is terrible. Corrin should've at least tried something, anything, before resorting to such actions.

As much as I'm not fond of Hoshido's cultural posturing, I find it rather ironic that people get all up in arms when it's the "other" culture that is doing the posturing. The U.S. and the western world does plenty of cultural posturing in its own damn media and, even worse, in its history books. But since it's "us", that's okay! Hoshido, being fantasy Japan, is not "us" and clearly it's bad when they do it.

Sometimes, I think people would be perfectly fine if it were Nohr that could do no wrong in the game instead of Hoshido. That's what a lot of people's attitudes here are saying to me anyway.

I agree. I'm biased towards Hoshido and I admit that, but some people are just not willing to do the same for Nohr.

[Seanp12]

As much as I'm not fond of Hoshido's cultural posturing, I find it rather ironic that people get all up in arms when it's the "other" culture that is doing the posturing. The U.S. and the western world does plenty of cultural posturing in its own damn media and, even worse, in its history books. But since it's "us", that's okay! Hoshido, being fantasy Japan, is not "us" and clearly it's bad when they do it.

Sometimes, I think people would be perfectly fine if it were Nohr that could do no wrong in the game instead of Hoshido. That's what a lot of people's attitudes here are saying to me anyway.

Probably. The Japanese can do their posturing, and I'll do mine. They're not going to do it for me.

​Actually, my problem with it is that they said that it wasn't going to be black and white. The Nohrians at worst were supposed to be antivillains.

[Sunwoo]

Probably. The Japanese can do their posturing, and I'll do mine. They're not going to do it for me.

​Actually, my problem with it is that they said that it wasn't going to be black and white. The Nohrians at worst were supposed to be antivillains.

@bolded: Isn't that hypocritical? -_- If you have a problem with the Japanese and their cultural posturing in a game that they made and was primarily developed for Japanese audiences, then you should have a problem with your own culture during posturing. It's not something you can have both ways.

@non-bolded: Chalk that up to shitty writing and three paths existing in the first place.

[saisymbolic]

Like, I love Nohr and am biased towards it like no one's business. I've previously stated that there's no way I'd ever betray my loved ones if I were in Kamui's position which hints heavily at my morals but the way they've set up the game makes it so that, if you align yourself with Nohr, you are, for all intents and purposes, joining what has been deemed the "bad" side. You are siding with evil and, with much of the plot the way that it is, also makes you out to be an idiot, as well.

I want to be sided with Nohr. I want the story to be coherent. I also want Kamui/Corrin to not be such a dumb ass in regards to the decisions I've forced them to make.

These are things I can't change but, damn it, I will complain and gripe about it like a child!

[Seanp12]

@bolded: Isn't that hypocritical? -_- If you have a problem with the Japanese and their cultural posturing in a game that they made and was primarily developed for Japanese audiences, then you should have a problem with your own culture during posturing. It's not something you can have both ways.

@non-bolded: Chalk that up to shitty writing and three paths existing in the first place.

I think it's a stretch to say it was primarily developed for the Japanese. Before Awakening, that might have been true, but now? And no, I don't really find a problem with cultures inflating themselves. To do it to this extent is kind of annoying, though, since it comes at the cost of the narrative.

[Tsuky]

Like, I love Nohr and am biased towards it like no one's business. I've previously stated that there's no way I'd ever betray my loved ones if I were in Kamui's position which hints heavily at my morals but the way they've set up the game makes it so that, if you align yourself with Nohr, you are, for all intents and purposes, joining what has been deemed the "bad" side. You are siding with evil and, with much of the plot the way that it is, also makes you out to be an idiot, as well.

I want to be sided with Nohr. I want the story to be coherent. I also want Kamui/Corrin to not be such a dumb ass in regards to the decisions I've forced them to make.

These are things I can't change but, damn it, I will complain and gripe about it like a child!

Exactly. We all wish that's how Conquest could've been, but alas, it was not meant to be... It's not even a problem of Conquest ending badly (that can still be done without negatively impacting the story), but Corrin actively making stupid decisions while the game forces me to think that those decisions are intelligent ones.

[Sentacotus]

@bolded: Isn't that hypocritical? -_- If you have a problem with the Japanese and their cultural posturing in a game that they made and was primarily developed for Japanese audiences, then you should have a problem with your own culture during posturing. It's not something you can have both ways.

I hate to break it to you but that's just people in general. Not to get too off topic but all civilizations have tried to posture or inflate themselves in some way (in a sense culture itself might not even exist if they didn't). It doesn't matter if you're French, Japanese, or whatever. People just naturally gravitate to their own norms and culture. Personally, I don't find anything wrong with posturing one's own culture as long as said cultures aren't condoning things like rape, murder etc but like I said topic for another time. I don't think he was trying to put down Eastern culture in any way just saying that he was going to look at the Western side of the game more positively...

Edited February 22, 2016 by LordTaco42