Does anyone else have a hard time choosing Nohr (conquest)?

[BruceLee]

but you cannot say that one moral code is objectively superior to another.

So an average decent person's moral code is not objectively superior to that of a rapist's? I can't agree with that.

[saisymbolic]

The morality debate over whether or not one should choose Nohr or Hoshido is completely subjective though. Morals are a code to which you subscribe. You can objectively evaluate whether or not something violates a given moral code, but you cannot say that one moral code is objectively superior to another. I saw nothing morally wrong with siding with Nohr, I just hated the story that makes you out to be an indecisive, whiny idiot when you should know exactly what you're in for by living in Nohr.

I agree completely. It would have been awesome if they had even put a little unique spin on Kamui/Corrin and make them out to be something of an anti-hero.

Instead, I have to constantly see that Kamui/Corrin is questioning themselves ("If I had sided with Hoshido blah blagh blah *cough ala h3h3 style*) and being a paragon destined to lead the land into peace.

Like, Kamui/Corrin, if you wanted to be with Hoshido, I would have made that decision for you. I did not. Now stop being a imbecile and stand by the morals I have made for you.

Edited February 21, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[RedEyedDrake]

Honestly, this is a question of whether you think you should grit your teeth and drag yourself through the muck in hopes of restoring Nohr or if you don't feel like bothering with that and find it acceptable to rout away at the kingdom, one map at a time.

Personally I think that if you're going to try and do good you might as well do it where it is needed more.

Edited February 21, 2016 by RedEyedDrake

[saisymbolic]

So an average decent person's moral code is not objectively superior to that of a rapist's? I can't agree with that.

Why are we comparing our moral codes to that of a rapist's? A debate should not have to come to things like this. Why must we always compare each end of a spectrum against each other like that, as if pointing it out makes some kind of difference? You judge things from a non-biased, equal standing--not with something that obviously most would not agree with.

No, I do not condone the acts of a rapist, but what does that have to do with my preference of Nohr, as is the topic of this discussion?

[BruceLee]

Why are we comparing our moral codes to that of a rapist's? A debate should not have to come to things like this. Why must we always compare each end of a spectrum against each other like that, as if pointing it out makes some kind of difference? You judge things from a non-biased, equal standing--not with something that obviously most would not agree with.

No, I do not condone the acts of a rapist, but what does that have to do with my preference of Nohr, as is the topic of this discussion?

I realize i took a very extreme example, but what i responded to was not about Fates anymore, it was the other guy's opinion on how moral codes work and how they should be judged.

It has nothing to do with your preference of Nohr.

Edited February 21, 2016 by BruceLee

[Tolvir]

At first yes, but as the story progressed, from the Nohr point of view the only two siblings that I actually like are Sakura and Hinoka. Ryoma was willing to let a Elise die due to his own pride, and Takumi is down right evil. Not just did he try and kill both you and Elise, but he is also extremely racist to the point of not caring about if even innocent Nohrians die. Ryoma was willing to let Elise die and whoever else was likely being taken care of by the healers in chapter 12 just to try and fight Corrin. That and while Hinoka sees what Corrin is trying to do, Ryoma and Takumi both completely overlook it. Im not done with it yet, I am actually stuck on Chapter 13, but I really like the Nohr side so far. Overall it feels like you most of the people around you are trying to make a difference, and that Hoshido isn't your enemy, its Garon specifically. Even Xander sees that, and helps you by sending you help and doing things behind Garon's back.

I think Localization did a good job showing Hoshido's dark side because they are racist, and seek vengeance to a fault. While Nohr is definitely not good , Hoshido without being lead by Mikoto aren't much better.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Tolvir

[scorpio_7]

I purchased Conquest digitally, as I did want to take that route from the beginning as my first foray into Fates. But at the moment of choosing (even though it was pre-chosen) I stayed on the decision screen for a good 30 mins, had to get up and walk away. They did an awesome job on the guilt from both sides. It is completely feasible for a person to pick either side, depending on their thoughts about family/adoption/loyalty/sense of loss.

After I continued on for a bit, I went and unlocked Birthright as well. So I am playing both routes simultaneously (male corrin in nohr, and female corrin in Birthright), and I am loving it (I knew I would buy both, I was surprised by how quickly I had to have the other route as well).

So my recommendation to people, is buy both and enjoy both, and then buy Revelations immediately upon release :)

[Moonkis]

I absolutely despise the overall narrative of Nohr vs Hoshido. I said it before, but Hoshido is so self masturbatory it's repulsive. I love the character design of Hoshido, but the way they polarized the pure innocent glorious nippon that can do no wrong vs the filthy western Norhian scums makes me cringe so. damn. hard. They constantly reminds you that Hoshido did nothing wrong, that it's peace loving pure and innocent to the point of actually repeatingly telling you this through in-game dialog. For a game about choice, they could at least made the nations more of a moral gray zone.

I think a better start would probably be that MU knew that he was kidnapped, but eventually came to find himself surrounded with friends and family and slowly just accepted this situation. After meeting his real family he would be torn, he remembers them, loves them and MU understands how they have missed him. He understands that he should hate Nohr for being kidnapped, but Hoshido had responded by committing the same act. He can't simply just leave his friends and family behind which he have come to love, it's not that easy. At the same time, this is his legacy, his family which he have missed but more or less forgotten now comes ravaging back, tearing up old memories and feelings.

Obviously I'm not an excellent writer but I think the above portrayal would have been far more interesting than what we got.

Either going full on Revelation or Nohr was the only reasonable choice in my mind, because I couldn't just accept the obvious good guy choice.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Moonkis

[saisymbolic]

I realize i took a very extreme example, but what i responded to was not about Fates anymore, it was the other guy's opinion on how moral codes work and how they should be judged.

It has nothing to do with your preference of Nohr.

Then, I apologize if my response came off as too tart or hostile.

[Sunwoo]

At first yes, but as the story progressed, from the Nohr point of view the only two siblings that I actually like are Sakura and Hinoka. Ryoma was willing to let a Elise die due to his own pride, and Takumi is down right evil. Not just did he try and kill both you and Elise, but he is also extremely racist to the point of not caring about if even innocent Nohrians die. Ryoma was willing to let Elise die and whoever else was likely being taken care of by the healers in chapter 12 just to try and fight Corrin. That and while Hinoka sees what Corrin is trying to do, Ryoma and Takumi both completely overlook it. Im not done with it yet, I am actually stuck on Chapter 13, but I really like the Nohr side so far. Overall it feels like you most of the people around you are trying to make a difference, and that Hoshido isn't your enemy, its Garon specifically. Even Xander sees that, and helps you by sending you help and doing things behind Garon's back.

Your Nohr bias is so obvious that you're not even trying to understand the Hoshido side. The only character that can be considered outright evil in this game is Garon. Takumi is far from being downright evil. If you took the time to see the world through someone else's eyes other than your self-inserts, you'd see that even if you don't agree with their actions they have very human motivations behind them.

In Ryoma's eyes, Nohr is the enemy. He did not know Elise was sick. He only knew because Kamui blurted it out to him like the idiot he is. It's not like he attacked them knowing that Elise was sick and when he knew they were at their most vulnerable. Ryoma is in a real lose-lose situation no matter what he does. Don't give Elise the medicine? The fanbase tears him apart as a horrible character. He gives Elise the medicine? Then he looks like a dumbass to his troops and it subverts his authority. Nothing he did was going to make anyone happy. You may not agree with Ryoma's actions, but he's not evil for doing them. He had his reasons and it's not because he's evil. What do you think about the Nohr troops in Hoshido 7 who attacked a fort that was being used as a makeshift hospital?

Also, even if you don't like that Takumi is a jerk to the avatar and keeps going after you in Conquest, he has his reasons. From his POV, Kamui is a stranger who was raised in Nohr and just randomly came back one day without any warning. Kamui is also partly responsible for Mikoto and all of the civilians in chapter 5 being dead. And then, at this point when Hoshido is hurting the most, Kamui picks Nohr. It is UNDERSTANDABLE why he is angry. Even shooting Elise in Nohr 13 makes sense when you consider that she is an enemy combatant who willingly put herself on the civilian and not an innocent bystander. As an enemy healer and the enemy princess, Elise is practically priority. Now, I'm not saying he was right in doing so but that it's not an "evil" act and it's even understandable. Even if you don't agree with him or the way he treats you, he has his very valid reasons and to brush them off and him off as being downright is just being obtuse as hell and not even trying to understand.

[saisymbolic]

As an enemy healer and the enemy princess, Elise is practically priority.

While this is not on topic, I just find it pretty horrific to attack healers. From a video game standpoint, they are the most annoying and dangerous but I always grimace when I've obliterated all my enemies, leave the healers then remember that the map is a rout mission.

I wish they would change that. Have you rout only combatants, as healers are non-combatant--and it is a war crime to injure medics.

Now, it doesn't count if you've reclassed Elise into a class with a weapon. Then again, there are those staves that debuff you...

[Sunwoo]

While this is not on topic, I just find it pretty horrific to attack healers. From a video game standpoint, they are the most annoying and dangerous but I always grimace when I've obliterated all my enemies, leave the healers then remember that the map is a rout mission.

I wish they would change that. Have you rout only combatants, as healers are non-combatant--and it is a war crime to injure medics.

Now, it doesn't count if you've reclassed Elise into a class with a weapon. Then again, there are those staves that debuff you...

And if you find attacking enemy healers horrific, that's fine and your opinion. However, there are other people who WILL attack enemy healers for the EXP or because they're being annoying … and will shit on an in-game character for doing the same. That one is not okay because then they're being a hypocrite.

[saisymbolic]

And if you find attacking enemy healers horrific, that's fine and your opinion. However, there are other people who WILL attack enemy healers for the EXP or because they're being annoying … and will shit on an in-game character for doing the same. That one is not okay because then they're being a hypocrite.

Ah, I see your point.

[Moonkis]

And if you find attacking enemy healers horrific, that's fine and your opinion. However, there are other people who WILL attack enemy healers for the EXP or because they're being annoying … and will shit on an in-game character for doing the same. That one is not okay because then they're being a hypocrite.

They are not really being a hypocrite at all. Some player-actions are simply not enjoyable if the NPC has access to them. It's like players glitching a boss to gain an advantage. If the AI did the same, it would be completely unacceptable. There exists relation between the dynamic of AI and Player, it's not equal since the experience is designed from the players perspective. This has always been the case in AI.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Attacking medical personnel in real life is a war crime as long as they only perform medicinal roles (it's called medicinal neutrality), so if you promoted Elise to Strategist or Maid, she's fair game.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Phillius

[Tolvir]

Your Nohr bias is so obvious that you're not even trying to understand the Hoshido side. The only character that can be considered outright evil in this game is Garon. Takumi is far from being downright evil. If you took the time to see the world through someone else's eyes other than your self-inserts, you'd see that even if you don't agree with their actions they have very human motivations behind them.

In Ryoma's eyes, Nohr is the enemy. He did not know Elise was sick. He only knew because Kamui blurted it out to him like the idiot he is. It's not like he attacked them knowing that Elise was sick and when he knew they were at their most vulnerable. Ryoma is in a real lose-lose situation no matter what he does. Don't give Elise the medicine? The fanbase tears him apart as a horrible character. He gives Elise the medicine? Then he looks like a dumbass to his troops and it subverts his authority. Nothing he did was going to make anyone happy. You may not agree with Ryoma's actions, but he's not evil for doing them. He had his reasons and it's not because he's evil. What do you think about the Nohr troops in Hoshido 7 who attacked a fort that was being used as a makeshift hospital?

Also, even if you don't like that Takumi is a jerk to the avatar and keeps going after you in Conquest, he has his reasons. From his POV, Kamui is a stranger who was raised in Nohr and just randomly came back one day without any warning. Kamui is also partly responsible for Mikoto and all of the civilians in chapter 5 being dead. And then, at this point when Hoshido is hurting the most, Kamui picks Nohr. It is UNDERSTANDABLE why he is angry. Even shooting Elise in Nohr 13 makes sense when you consider that she is an enemy combatant who willingly put herself on the civilian and not an innocent bystander. As an enemy healer and the enemy princess, Elise is practically priority. Now, I'm not saying he was right in doing so but that it's not an "evil" act and it's even understandable. Even if you don't agree with him or the way he treats you, he has his very valid reasons and to brush them off and him off as being downright is just being obtuse as hell and not even trying to understand.

Well first off, since it seems you can't read, I said from a Nohr point of view. Not Hoshido, not Valla, but Nohr. I understand that there are more motivations behind these two from the other paths, but from what I am seeing in Nohr, Takumi is not a good person by any stretch of the imagination. Are Nohr good people? Oh hell no. There is a reason for Hoshido's anger towards them, but does that mean you need to judge each Nohrian by face value and call them all horrible? Well that isn't right either. Sure Takumi's frustration towards Corrin is understandable, but at the same time he is still trying to kill him. To be honest if allowed to in Hoshido, he would likely do the same thing, the only difference is you have Ryoma and Hinoka holding him back. As I stated in my comment, Hinoka and Sakura seem to be the only one to understand what Corrin is doing. Why haven't Ryoma and Takumi realized that he, nor any of the others in his army, have kept Hoshidan troops alive? To be honest that goes to show that they are blinded by their own emotions to see what Corrin is trying to do, which is stop Garon, not fight Hoshido.

Is Ryoma a bad person? No not at all. Once again he has very good reasons for his actions, but at the same time two wrongs don't make a right. Because Nohrian troops attacked a hospital makes it okay to attack a Nohrian hospital? Why not fight outside the hospital, or stop Corrin on his way to it. Now onto what Takumi did, his motivations for that were evil. He shot at Elise not because she was a healer, but because he was becoming annoyed by her. Does that mean I can go shoot my dog because his whining annoys me? She is a healer, and practically a child. Both which would be considered an evil act in which to both attack and kill. What Takumi did there should not be looked at in any other way than wrong. But that does not mean he is evil. Once again, I said from a Nohr point of view it seems that way, and I am not even fully through the game.

Now on the final point. Why rip my post apart when it was merely my opinion on what I think of the matter? I am clearly not through the game, and know limited information, but instead of realizing that, you decided you were going to rip my opinions apart and say I was very narrow-minded on the matter. No, I am ignorant to the full picture, not purposefully overlooking outside points of view. I literally know nothing of both Birthright and Revalation's stories, so I don't know anything about Takumi outside of what I know in Nohr. You clearly have I bias towards Hoshido, so maybe look at it from the Nohr point of view as well.

[RedEyedDrake]

Here is a thing I noticed about the way the families are represented when Xander and Ryoma fight each other. Xander's responses to Ryoma's words come across as pretty controlled and impersonal to me. Meanwhile, Ryoma and Takumi come off as much more emotional and, as such, impulsive.

[Ebony]

Attacking medical personnel in real life is a war crime as long as they only perform medicinal roles (it's called medicinal neutrality), so if you promoted Elise to Strategist or Maid, she's fair game.

"It's not okay to shoot children."

"She now cooks and cleans too."

"Shoot her first."

i know what you meant but maid being fair game made me laugh

[Raumata]

If I were to choose Nohr, then my main desire in doing so would be to see how the siblings/army interact with each other or what their interesting things their supports reveal about them. The plot is secondary.

[saisymbolic]

"It's not okay to shoot children."

"She now cooks and cleans too."

"Shoot her first."

i know what you meant but maid being fair game made me laugh

LOL. I laughed a little too hard.

[Time the Crestfallen]

"It's not okay to shoot children."

"She now cooks and cleans too."

"Shoot her first."

i know what you meant but maid being fair game made me laugh

I should've seen that coming...

For the sake of fairness though, scrolling through a list of war crimes is like reading a Nohrian standard operating manual, so they don't have any right to complain.

[Ebony]

I should've seen that coming...

For the sake of fairness though, scrolling through a list of war crimes is like reading a Nohrian standard operating manual, so they don't have any right to complain.

You should have and didn't. Neither did Elise. nyohohoho.

But that is true. There's a point where I don't mind an evil campaign, but story wise Nohr seems... almost comically evil. and hoshido comically pure but thats another story for another time

[Time the Crestfallen]

You should have and didn't. Neither did Elise. nyohohoho.

But that is true. There's a point where I don't mind an evil campaign, but story wise Nohr seems... almost comically evil. and hoshido comically pure but thats another story for another time

Nohr is almost as bad as Caesar's Legion in that regard and Hoshido being completely pure will never stop being funny to me, considering that Japanese history before the end of WW2 had war crimes coming out of it's arse while also being extremely xenophobic and extremely right-wing.

[bookwormbabe29]

My two cents:

Before starting the game and just knowing trailer teaser stuff, I went in fully expecting to support Nohr, the 'bond' over 'blood.' Having picked it up now, the game is so clearly pushing for you to go Hoshido, showing how horrible and evil the Nohrian scum really are, opening your eyes, etc, etc. Plus it's pretty obvious that even pre-split that Garon doesn't care much for anyone the way he talks to the Nohr siblings and the main character, sending you off on suicidal missions for minor slights, like not being evil.

Honestly, it's a little disappointing to me just how clear they making the sides seem good/bad, and would have preferred both sides being closer to neutral rather than such extremes. As it is, I do find it hard to side with Nohr as Garon is made to be so unsympathetic. Even if you love your siblings, going back when the king wants you dead is a really poor decision, and even Garon mocks you for it. I'd like to support Nohr, but the game makes it quite hard to do so.

[Ebony]

Nohr is almost as bad as Caesar's Legion in that regard and Hoshido being completely pure will never stop being funny to me, considering that Japanese history before the end of WW2 had war crimes coming out of it's arse while also being extremely xenophobic and extremely right-wing.

It really is. i know there are people who would go for an evil campaign (I probably would have had Nohr been written mildly different) but there's a point where there's damn near no reason to go Nohr.

If they had Garon actually liking MC, maybe whine less, I could understand. Personally I'd prefer neither side be clear cut as good or evil and rather just shades of gray, but... welp.