I can already feel that this game will get the same amount of hate as Awakening did...

[Thane]

(by the sheer force of having less flat characters, but I'm only on chapter 23 it can't get much worse right?) so at least they're improving not by much but it's something...

Oh you sweet summer child...

Because it's pretty much universally appreciated as a great game outside a minority of extremely vocal people? The story is average for FE imo. The characters in Awakening are better than those of Fates imo also. The writing only gets worse in fates.

I will agree with this. I see and acknowledge Awakening's many flaws, but more than a few of them are simply blown way out of proportion; some people seem to go so far as to call it a bad game

Fire Emblem Fates improves on pretty much every gameplay aspect and only falters with some balance issues and certain maps. However, the writing is far worse than Awakening - or any other Fire Emblem game - could ever hope to be. I have never seen a game that tried so hard treat itself with such little respect in that regard.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Thane

[Shadow Knight]

I will agree with this. I see and acknowledge Awakening's many flaws, but more than a few of them are simply blown way out of proportions; some people seem to go so far as to call it a bad game

Fire Emblem Fates improves on pretty much every gameplay aspect and only falters with some balance issues and certain maps. However, the writing is far worse than Awakening - or any other Fire Emblem game - could ever hope to be. I have never seen a game that tried so hard treat itself with such little respect in that regard.

I agree. Fate's gameplay is difficult, but more varied. And I admit I like the changes with attack and defense stances. They're a great way to improve weaker characters and really open the door on strategy. But the story, for conquest anyway, is pretty disappointing. There are some fantastic moments but it still drops the ball. The characters too are kind of disappointing. Case in point I can name and even explain any of Awakening's supports or path of radiance's supports. But Fate's supports had me bored and I found myself skipping through most of them. Perhaps Birthright's are better.

[General Banzai]

This is where I think they made there mistake, I think they should have hired someone which actual experience in writing video games. I also think IS also needs the self-discipline to be hands off with the story next time. There just not very good at writing, even their best attempts have major flaws that make some people hate them (4,7,9) and I love all three of these. But for what it's worth as bad it's story is I think Conquest's story is slightly better that Awakening (by the sheer force of having less flat characters, but I'm only on chapter 23 it can't get much worse right?) so at least they're improving not by much but it's something...

FESS and PoR have fantastic stories. Outside of Fire Emblem, TTYD and Super Paper Mario illustrate the strengths of the IS writing team. They are not bad writers by any stretch of the imagination.

[The DanMan]

FESS and PoR have fantastic stories. Outside of Fire Emblem, TTYD and Super Paper Mario illustrate the strengths of the IS writing team. They are not bad writers by any stretch of the imagination.

You're talking like it's been one solid team throughout company history and there wasn't a major reshuffling after the Radiant Duelogy bombed.

[General Banzai]

You're talking like it's been one solid team throughout company history and there wasn't a major reshuffling after the Radiant Duelogy bombed.

Actually, my first post in this thread was a discussion of how the concurrent failures of Radiance Saga, Super Paper Mario, and Advance Wars: Days of Ruin in the span of about 3 years caused a total change in the priorities of the company

[The DanMan]

Actually, my first post in this thread was a discussion of how the concurrent failures of Radiance Saga, Super Paper Mario, and Advance Wars: Days of Ruin in the span of about 3 years caused a total change in the priorities of the company

You seemed to be talking about IS as whole, saying it was better than this because of past works. It's a company with people coming and going; the team was never exactly the same on any project.

[Locke087]

FESS and PoR have fantastic stories. Outside of Fire Emblem, TTYD and Super Paper Mario illustrate the strengths of the IS writing team. They are not bad writers by any stretch of the imagination.

Yes but one has to wonder why their work is often so schizophrenic in quality, particularly with fire emblem, I mean I agree that sacred stones characters are written really well but the story eehhhh.... I mean it is better that most Fire Emblem Stories though that's not saying much clubbing myself with a seal is better than most Fire Emblem stories that aren't 7, 9, 4, or 8 so that is 4 out 14 (though I never played 5) not a very good track record with Fire Emblem if you ask me) 7 in my opinions is written really well (though whole swaths of its plot is hidden behind support conversations) but a lot of the a lot people have problems with that to ( personally I think it's their best work along side SPM and FE 9). But one is the wonder what happened you can't just be the Reshuffling because well Radiant Dawn happened, I have a hard time believing the same team that wrote Radiant Dawn, wrote Super Paper Mario. Though there is obvious downturn in quality storytelling from IS in recent years, you don't have to look farther then sticker star and fates to see that. In short IS schizophrenic story quality tells that they don't likely have in house writers or only had them from Paper Mario to Super Paper Mario anything before or after is just not good (the expections being FE 4).

[Time the Crestfallen]

As long as we're discussing the merits of Awakening vs. Fates.

Gameplay: Fates. More variety, more challenging without being obnoxiously frustrating (looking at you Lunatic +) and more interesting map design.

Story: Awakening. Anything I could say about Fates story would be treading water, but Awakening wins pretty handily here.

Characters: About even for me. Fates has more characters that I like, but Awakening has less characters that I wish were never programmed in the first place.

[Baldrick]

I think the quality of writing in the series varies because the quality of writers vary. Despite the fact it hasn't worked for Fates, I think having a single writer would make for best quality story.

[Rawkstar]

My problem with Fates isn't the writing, I think in theory this could've been the best Fire Emblem game (in a story sense) by far. However based on the path that the writers took it, I was a little disappointed. Now I haven't finished my first playthrough of Conquest yet (and I haven't started the other titles yet so I could be wrong, and if I am don't let me know cause I really don't want it spoiled) but it seems like you never really have to kill any of your opposing family members. Honestly I feel like that would make the story much more emotional and ultimately better. The pathway to peace is nice and all, but it doesn't make for NEAR as good of a story. With that said it's still a great game and I love it for the most part, I just feel like the writing could've been done sooo much better.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Fire Emblem Fates improves on pretty much every gameplay aspect and only falters with some balance issues and certain maps. However, the writing is far worse than Awakening - or any other Fire Emblem game - could ever hope to be.

This strikes me as a great exaggeration. Fates has its strengths and weaknesses on writing just like every other FE (and rest assured, I can list colossal weaknesses of any other FE you can name... while I don't necessarily agree that "all FEs have bad plots", they do tend to all have major problems), and while I tend to agree it's weaker than most (I still like it better than 6 or 7, but I can see why one might differ), I really have a hard time parsing someone legitimately claiming it has a worse plot than Shadow Dragon, which managed to have a cast of characters which felt like cardboard cutouts. I can usually roll my eyes at bad plot points in FE - I'm used to them by now, thanks - but in SD I totally didn't even care when random generic PC #14 bit the dust because it so horribly failed to characterise almost anyone beyond a weak trope.

I slaughtered most of my army to see all the side chapters, there aren't many other FEs I'd even consider doing that in even if they had the same requirements...

[MCProductions]

This strikes me as a great exaggeration. Fates has its strengths and weaknesses on writing just like every other FE (and rest assured, I can list colossal weaknesses of any other FE you can name... while I don't necessarily agree that "all FEs have bad plots", they do tend to all have major problems), and while I tend to agree it's weaker than most (I still like it better than 6 or 7, but I can see why one might differ), I really have a hard time parsing someone legitimately claiming it has a worse plot than Shadow Dragon, which managed to have a cast of characters which felt like cardboard cutouts. I can usually roll my eyes at bad plot points in FE - I'm used to them by now, thanks - but in SD I totally didn't even care when random generic PC #14 bit the dust because it so horribly failed to characterise almost anyone beyond a weak trope.

I slaughtered most of my army to see all the side chapters, there aren't many other FEs I'd even consider doing that in even if they had the same requirements...

This pretty much. I'd place Fates around middle of the road in terms of writing when compared to the rest of the series. It has problems in it's writing, but heck, my favorite narrative in the series has major problems in terms of writing. While I've only played Conquest so far, and am on Birthright at present, I only really had 3 issues with Conquest's narrative, one of which was minor tbh, and while the other two were major, small changes could easily fix them. While the people who consider Conquest's narrative garbage are CERTAINLY entitled to feel that way, I can't honestly say I will ever agree with them.

[General Banzai]

This strikes me as a great exaggeration. Fates has its strengths and weaknesses on writing just like every other FE (and rest assured, I can list colossal weaknesses of any other FE you can name... while I don't necessarily agree that "all FEs have bad plots", they do tend to all have major problems), and while I tend to agree it's weaker than most (I still like it better than 6 or 7, but I can see why one might differ), I really have a hard time parsing someone legitimately claiming it has a worse plot than Shadow Dragon, which managed to have a cast of characters which felt like cardboard cutouts. I can usually roll my eyes at bad plot points in FE - I'm used to them by now, thanks - but in SD I totally didn't even care when random generic PC #14 bit the dust because it so horribly failed to characterise almost anyone beyond a weak trope.

I slaughtered most of my army to see all the side chapters, there aren't many other FEs I'd even consider doing that in even if they had the same requirements...

Shadow Dragon is better by not being offensively bad. Plus what little writing exists is really good. But Fates has such goofy plot devices and scenes it's hard to even sit through it.

[Jianshen]

Like any game the haters are going to be loudest for people like to complain. I tend to ignore the haters for anything (esp the Zelda cycle that was mentioned). Usually unless I find a game to be totally bad, I'll point out the good parts about it along with the bad when I rant. As for Awakening... if it was such a terrible game, why did so many people go from it to buy this one?

[Time the Crestfallen]

Shadow Dragon is better by not being offensively bad. Plus what little writing exists is really good. But Fates has such goofy plot devices and scenes it's hard to even sit through it.

I dunno about that. While Fates has easily (or at least a contender) the worst FE story, there are definitely plenty games out their with stories. Bad? Obviously, but I wouldn't say that it's offensively bad.

[Shadow Knight]

I dunno about that. While Fates has easily (or at least a contender) the worst FE story, there are definitely plenty games out their with stories. Bad? Obviously, but I wouldn't say that it's offensively bad.

I didn't find anything offensive about it. It just lacked any punch. They refused to take risks in the story, yet took risks in gameplay by nerfing several gameplay features from Awakening (Pair ups, second seals, overall difficulty.)And it paid off big time. The gameplay in fates is amazing. But having beaten Conquest's story it's just simply disappointing and dumb at most points, yet you can see the potential it had. There are some great moments in the story

The Duel with Ryoma, Ryoma's death, the ending scene, chapter 10

but it is blown by the campiness of certain characters such as Kamui and of certain scenes as well as the insane decisions made by characters in the game.

Garon orders the death of Kamui and betrays him on several occasions and the siblings simply ask that Corrin be forgiven. Corrin constantly disobeys Garon and yet he is forgiven even when he clearly purposefully disobeyed Garon

It's too bad, because this could arguably have been the best Fire Emblem game ever released

[Thane]

This strikes me as a great exaggeration. Fates has its strengths and weaknesses on writing just like every other FE (and rest assured, I can list colossal weaknesses of any other FE you can name... while I don't necessarily agree that "all FEs have bad plots", they do tend to all have major problems), and while I tend to agree it's weaker than most (I still like it better than 6 or 7, but I can see why one might differ), I really have a hard time parsing someone legitimately claiming it has a worse plot than Shadow Dragon, which managed to have a cast of characters which felt like cardboard cutouts. I can usually roll my eyes at bad plot points in FE - I'm used to them by now, thanks - but in SD I totally didn't even care when random generic PC #14 bit the dust because it so horribly failed to characterise almost anyone beyond a weak trope.

I slaughtered most of my army to see all the side chapters, there aren't many other FEs I'd even consider doing that in even if they had the same requirements...

It's by no means an objective statement, of course, but I can't recall ever getting mad over a video game story before simply because of the horrendous writing, some insulting characters, plot devices and player worship. Another thing is that the plot in Fates essentially just happens; Corrin and his crew walk along and then an asshole/sibling show up and they have to fight - in other entries in the series, especially in the Tellius series, you always got a sense of progression and that the characters were working towards something and that what happened was a result of their actions.

Then there are the many, many plot contrivances, like: [spoiler=Revelation chapter seven]two thirds of the game only happen because of a poorly handled, insufficiently explained plot device, and the game itself even calls Birthright and Conquest the wrong choices.

[spoiler=Conquest finale]Garon being a literal monster as to remove any sense of moral dilemma that would come with killing your father.

I could go on but I'm in a bit of a hurry. Like I said, it's not an objective statement, but all of the horrible plot devices, story directions and lackluster writing in general makes this the worst Fire Emblem Fates story ever for me.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Thane

[Time the Crestfallen]

It's by no means an objective statement, of course, but I can't recall ever getting mad over a video game story before simply because of the horrendous writing, some insulting characters, plot devices and player worship. Another thing is that the plot in Fates essentially just happens; Corrin and his crew walk along and then an asshole/sibling show up and they have to fight - in other entries in the series, especially in the Tellius series, you always got a sense of progression and that the characters were working towards something and that what happened was a result of their actions.

Then there are the many, many plot contrivances, like: [spoiler=Revelation chapter seven]two thirds of the game only happen because of a poorly handled, insufficiently explained plot device, and the game itself even calls Birthright and Conquest the wrong choices.

[spoiler=Conquest finale]Garon being a literal monster as to remove any sense of moral dilemma that would come with killing your father.

I could go on but I'm in a bit of a hurry. Like I said, it's not an objective statement, but all of the horrible plot devices, story directions and lackluster writing in general makes this the worst Fire Emblem Fates story ever for me.

Not even a sequel to a certain Dark-Fantasy Bioware game?

My beef is that, while Fates undoubtedly has a bad story, some people are treating it like the be-all and end-all of bad video game stories. Its a contender (if not undisputed champion) of bad FE stories, but there are plenty of other bad stuff out there in terms of story:

Other M

DA2

Mass Effect 3

The recent Final Fantasy games

Resident Evil

Anything to do with Aliens and/or Predators (minus Isolation, that was top kek)

Dead Space 3

Most Modern Military FPS'

Painkiller

Ride to Hell: Retribution

Mortal Kombat (and most other Fighting Games for that matter)

Pretty much all cross-over games

Arguably MGS (I personally don't find it convoluted, it's just that a lot of the explanations are really dumb)

WoW

Arguably Crysis 2

Halo Guardians

I could go all day with this. My point is that while Fates does have a terrible story, I wouldn't say that it's irredeemable garbage, especially compared to some of the games listed above.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Phillius

[Jave]

The only FE game with a story that I would describe as offensive is FE12.

[Thane]

Not even a sequel to a certain Dark-Fantasy Bioware game?

My beef is that, while Fates undoubtedly has a bad story, some people are treating it like the be-all and end-all of bad video game stories. Its a contender (if not undisputed champion) of bad FE stories, but there are plenty of other bad stuff out there in terms of story:

Other M

DA2

Mass Effect 3

The recent Final Fantasy games

Resident Evil

Anything to do with Aliens and/or Predators (minus Isolation, that was top kek)

Dead Space 3

Most Modern Military FPS'

Painkiller

Ride to Hell: Retribution

Mortal Kombat (and most other Fighting Games for that matter)

Pretty much all cross-over games

Arguably MGS (I personally don't find it convoluted, it's just that a lot of the explanations are really dumb)

WoW

Arguably Crysis 2

Halo Guardians

I could go all day with this. My point is that while Fates does have a terrible story, I wouldn't say that it's irredeemable garbage, especially compared to some of the games listed above.

Dragon Age Ii had absolute shit writing aside from rare glimpses of genuine character interaction and some worldbuilding (oh, and Varric of course, but that doesn't need to be said - it's almost as if he had an entirely different writer dedicated just for him) but at least the plot devices are few and at least there's a distance between Hawke and the player so when people realize that Hawke is the only capable man in that godforsaken little square called town it's he that gets praised and not the player. Keep in mind that it's still one of the worst written games ever and it plays like shit too - and Inquisiton wasn't much better in that regard either in my opinion - so yes, all the complains about shallow characters, horrible location, non-existent story etc are all true.

But like I said, Fates has more things working against itself, like the aforementioned plot devices, player worship and characters that have to have all intelligence stripped from them in order for the plot to even move forward.

What you think of a story will always be subjective; I don't agree with your list not only because I think Fates trumps the ones I'm familiar with but also because a lot of them simply don't put as much effort into theirs as Fates obviously did. Dragon Age II and Other M come dangerously close though, and I'm disappointed you didn't mention Inquisition!

[RJWalker]

People say that Birthright has the best story of the 3 and while that is true, that is not praise. Birthright is a whole lot of absolutely nothing. The game spends 5 chapters over Takumi and Ryoma's disappearance. That's literally the only plot point of 5 consecutive chapters. All that happens in between in you meet Izana (who is pointless) and

Takumi's 5 minutes of possession

. Something that should have been 2 chapters is dragged out over 5 chapters.

And I hate the argument that because the previous games supposedly had awful stories, we're not really allowed to criticize this story. Even if that were true or you genuinely believed this to be true (and I won't dispute your beliefs), this makes no sense as a counterargument. Fire Emblem is not a series that focuses on gameplay alone. It's very creation was to tell a grand story, not just be a pure gameplay experience. Every game since has used 'story' as one of its selling points. And after 25 years, one should expect improvement (if you believe all previous games had bad plots) or be of equal quality (if you believe that previous games had good plots).

[Thane]

People say that Birthright has the best story of the 3 and while that is true, that is not praise. Birthright is a whole lot of absolutely nothing. The game spends 5 chapters over Takumi and Ryoma's disappearance. That's literally the only plot point of 5 consecutive chapters. All that happens in between in you meet Izana (who is pointless) and

Takumi's 5 minutes of possession

. Something that should have been 2 chapters is dragged out over 5 chapters.

I completely agree. It's the least offensive one but that's just because nothing happens.

Also, I'm getting the feeling that this is getting increasingly relevant:

[Jedi]

But like I said, Fates has more things working against itself, like the aforementioned plot devices, player worship and characters that have to have all intelligence stripped from them in order for the plot to even move forward.

It would only be player worship if the main character (I.E Corrin) wasn't their own established character that reacted to the situations on their own merits, I honestly don't see much difference in characters praising Corrin (Or chiding him/her for their naivety etc) any different than any other lord in the series getting praised or decried by other characters in the game. (I.E Ephraim who never fights battles he can't win etc.)

So your constant complaints about player worship don't hold much water when while we get to customize Corrin, we aren't actually controlling the majority of what he/she says or does apart from a select few times, and I honestly going through both stories didn't see much of this so called worship you speak of, they get called out several times and while they do have the most focus, they are the main character, they should get the most focus regardless of what people think about them as either an avatar or them as "Corrin"

Like i'm not saying any of this story telling is stellar, but I am a little eh on your whole worship thing, you get your panties in a bunch about it all the time and it makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.

I don't see you complaining about your oh so perfect Persona 4 when it has the exact same type of "worship". So don't pull that hypocritical crap.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Dragon Age Ii had absolute shit writing aside from rare glimpses of genuine character interaction and some worldbuilding (oh, and Varric of course, but that doesn't need to be said - it's almost as if he had an entirely different writer dedicated just for him) but at least the plot devices are few and at least there's a distance between Hawke and the player so when people realize that Hawke is the only capable man in that godforsaken little square called town it's he that gets praised and not the player. Keep in mind that it's still one of the worst written games ever and it plays like shit too - and Inquisiton wasn't much better in that regard either in my opinion - so yes, all the complains about shallow characters, horrible location, non-existent story etc are all true.

But like I said, Fates has more things working against itself, like the aforementioned plot devices, player worship and characters that have to have all intelligence stripped from them in order for the plot to even move forward.

What you think of a story will always be subjective; I don't agree with your list not only because I think Fates trumps the ones I'm familiar with but also because a lot of them simply don't put as much effort into theirs as Fates obviously did. Dragon Age II and Other M come dangerously close though, and I'm disappointed you didn't mention Inquisition!

I haven't played Inquisition, and from what I've seen of my brother playing it I have no desire to. The only reason I didn't put it on the same list as DA2 is because it actually has a central narrative in addition to those gems of character interaction, rather than just doing stuff until the game decides to end. There's also the fact that Varric's chest hair was even more glorious than it was in DA2.

As for Fates having effort put a lot of effort, that wasn't IS doing the work though, it was Kibayashi who wrote the 500 page draft and we all know that initial drafts can wind up quite different from the final product. Hinoka literally didn't exist and the only reason she got in was because Kozaki liked the idea of her. Not to mention that I'm still convinced that they cut huge chunks outt of the draft since the pacing of all three routes is fucked and Fates doesn't feel like it has 500 pages of content in it, even if the draft involved character bios and the world's background.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Phillius

[Thane]

It would only be player worship if the main character (I.E Corrin) wasn't their own established character that reacted to the situations on their own merits, I honestly don't see much difference in characters praising Corrin (Or chiding him/her for their naivety etc) any different than any other lord in the series getting praised or decried by other characters in the game. (I.E Ephraim who never fights battles he can't win etc.)

So your constant complaints about player worship don't hold much water when while we get to customize Corrin, we aren't actually controlling the majority of what he/she says or does apart from a select few times, and I honestly going through both stories didn't see much of this so called worship you speak of, they get called out several times and while they do have the most focus, they are the main character, they should get the most focus regardless of what people think about them as either an avatar or them as "Corrin"

Like i'm not saying any of this story telling is stellar, but I am a little eh on your whole worship thing, you get your panties in a bunch about it all the time and it makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.

I don't see you complaining about your oh so perfect Persona 4 when it has the exact same type of "worship". So don't pull that hypocritical crap.

Ouch, ease off on that passive aggressiveness, I might cut myself on the edge here.

Let's start with the most obvious one: I have heavily criticized the player worship in Persona 4 multiple times, especially when romance is concerned. The only defense I had towards it was that it was worse in Persona 3 since the protagonist in the fourth installment actually comes across as a genuinely nice guy as opposed to his predecessor - that's it, that's the only defense to it. If you think I'm choosing to ignore such a glaring problem in one of my favorite games ever then you're mistaken.

I've also never claimed the game to be perfect, in fact I went on about many of its flaws in the thread I made, among them being pacing issues, cheesy and preachy dialogue towards the end, some issues with characterization, a final villain that should've had an entirely different concept, etc.

As for the player worship in Fates, I'm surprised to hear you say that you don't think it's any different compared to other games or even installments in the series. How many characters are directly linked to Corrin and have their entire personalities dedicated to them? When other characters' love for another overrides their own personalities then that is a huge problem in the narrative. Speaking of which, the entire narrative twists itself to always make Corrin look good, even when invading a peaceful nation. I would also argue that all of Revelation is essentially just one big Corrin circlejerk.

I haven't played Inquisition, and from what I've seen of my brother playing it I have no desire to. The only reason I didn't put it on the same list as DA2 is because it actually has a central narrative in addition to those gems of character interaction, rather than just doing stuff until the game decides to end. There's also the fact that Varric's chest hair was even more glorious than it was in DA2.

As for Fates having effort put a lot of effort, that wasn't IS doing the work though, it was Kibayashi who wrote the 500 page draft and we all know that initial drafts can wind up quite different. Hinoka literally didn't exist and the only reason she got in was because Kozaki liked the idea. Not to mention that I'm still convinced that they cut out a lot of the draft since the pacing of all three routes is fucked and Fates doesn't feel like it has 500 pages of content in it, even if the draft involved character bios and the world's background.

Wasn't it 500 pages PER ROUTE? They had to have cut a lot of content; I've mentioned it before but I'm sure the duchies, cities etc. were all more fleshed out originally and that only their "skeletons" made it into the game when it was too late to remove them from the final product. I've got zero proof of this, but it could also serve as an explanation as to why that pink-haired singer still has her unique character portrait.

Inquisition is essentially "oh, you're the chosen one to defeat the evil plaguing our lands!" and that's the entire game. The rest is a singleplayer MMO with hollow choices, often boring characters, etc. However, it made some small improvements story-wise, but it's almost offensive how the literal one-minute epilogue is more exciting than anything found within the main story.