I feel like Fates just dropped the ball (Conquest Chapter 15 spoilers)

[NekoKnight]

Thirdly, although I don't like invoking this argument often since I don't like a reliance of tropes, but this is Fire Emblem! People defecting or fighting against impossible odds and mad kings and emperors is in, I believe, literally every game. Look at how Sacred Stone handled it, for instance: an emperor suddenly goes ballistic and invades another nation, and what happens? Everyone starts questioning him but the game lets us know WHY some of them still choose to fight for him in spite of all the bloodshed.

This is pretty significant. Some people say "Well, Kamui didn't have any other options" but the series has always been about rebellion and fighting superior odds. Imagine if Ike decided to team up with Ashera saying "Hey man, I can't fight against a goddess!" or Roy helped Zephiel conquer Elibe, even the Lycian League, saying "I don't like it, but if I help Zephiel take over the continent, I may have a chance to kill him later." Some "heroes" they would be.

If the issue is "realistically Kamui wouldn't be able to rebel", then you shouldn't write the story to where he is doomed for failure. The really terrible thing is, there are already canon elements that could facilitate either Kamui's compliance OR rebellion, that don't rely on such ridiculous logic as Azura and Kamui's plan. Want siding with Garon to make some sense? Nohr is established as being resource poor, and the war could be justified as being necessary for the country's survival. Want to have a rebellion? There are already two factions (Chevalier and the ice tribe) trying to rebel against Garon and the various neutral factions could side with you as well. There is no reason why the story had to happen the way it did.

Wait... shouldn't this thread title read "Dropped the crystal ball?"

*excuses himself*

That explains why it shattered. Some meta humor courtesy of Azura.

[joshcja]

As badly written as it is at times, yeah that's pretty much how it works when someone with a hardon for public executions come into power.

To be completely fair to the royal siblings, apparently they acted against the king...constantly, jut in ways that don't get them hellmurdered with a hans in their place. Its no shining hero wow, but its pragmatic and effective.

Edited February 24, 2016 by joshcja

[The DanMan]

That explains why it shattered. Some meta humor courtesy of Azura.

But seriously, there was literally no reason for it to have done so other than to make you fight the Hoshidan siblings. If there had been some build-up for it (say, Azura was assisting Gunter to look for it and it's some form of semi-special artifact) and it actually stayed around and the siblings saw, things wouldn't be half as bad. Then they could fully get together and make a concentrated effort against Garon, all while Garon was trying to invade Hoshido. Heck, I think a three-way conflict could be interesting and open things up for actual intrigue. You could still fight the Hoshidan siblings while causing a revolution from within; shed some sparks and light the dormant fire of revolution within Nohr.

As-is, there really was absolutely no reason for what happened to have happened.

Edited February 24, 2016 by The DanMan

[Ryas]

What would end the war with Hoshido faster, a quick beeline for the Hoshidan capital where Garon can be assassinated in relative safety and isolation, or a bloody civil war? The war march against Hoshido was done so quickly because of the might and numbers of the Nohrian army, but it's a different story and much more difficult task to even rally up the number of dissenting Nohrian troops necessary to match Garon's army. What would be more certain to gain the support of the Nohrian siblings, showing them that beyond a shadow of a doubt that their King is no longer who they believe to be, or risking revealing yourself to have traitorous intentions and having to fight them, in which case you may as well have just chosen Hoshido back at the route split.

I agree that it's pretty shitty that the plot makes some stupid railroads just to mirror the structure of the other route, but it's not like the plan is unjustifiable.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Ryas

[BruceLee]

What would end the war with Hoshido faster, a quick beeline for the Hoshidan capital where Garon can be assassinated in relative safety and isolation, or a bloody civil war? The war march against Hoshido was done so quickly because of the might and numbers of the Nohrian army, but it's a different story and much more difficult task to even rally up the number of dissenting Nohrian troops necessary to match Garon's army. What would be more certain to gain the support of the Nohrian siblings, showing them that beyond a shadow of a doubt that their King is no longer who they believe to be, or risking revealing yourself to have traitorous intentions and having to fight them, in which case you may as well have just chosen Hoshido back at the route split.

I agree that it's pretty shitty that the plot makes some stupid railroads just to mirror the structure of the other route, but it's not like the plan is unjustifiable.

''A quick beeline for the Hoshidan capital.''

Understatement of the year.

Edited February 24, 2016 by BruceLee

[Ryas]

Can you call it anything other than that? In the Birthright story the Hoshidan army is outmatched, outnumbered, and isolated from the main force, and the only reason they manage to succeed to in reaching the capital is because they go out of their way to avoid direct confrontation with the Nohrian main force. In Conquest, once the invasion kicks into full gear, difficulties of the map aside, it's just the Nohrian army steamrolling through Hoshido's defensive lines until they reach the capital.

[TheWerdna]

I still feel that would have made more sense, I mean, the promotions say you're trying to fix the corruptions in Nohr from the inside and that's exactly what you'd be doing. But if you do just kill him and then Xander becomes the king, I don't see how that would cause too much discourse unless a large faction of Nohr was loyal to Lago. I'd still rather be having that fight then fighting against Hoshido who seems to be mostly innocent in the war.

This.

In fact, if Corrin really had balls he would do this and take the fall. Garon dies, Xander becomes king, Xander can put the responsibility on Corrin. Then peace talks can begin between the Nohr and the Hoshido. Basically this is what actually happens, only in the game you are sacrificing the Hoshido and causing a lot of needless death. In this alternate version the only downside is that Corrin would be seen as a traitor in the eyes of the Nohr people and would have to leave the country.

Besides the Lago problem can be easilly solved. Just have Corrin off him too while he's at it.

Edited February 24, 2016 by TheWerdna

[saisymbolic]

I just beat Conquest last night and, despite my grievances with the story, it wasn't...that...horrible. When looking at it from a perspective where it is isolated from Birthright and Revelations, I found it to be a relatively average story with its share of stupidity and laughable moments. I mean, that's the reason I personally was annoyed with Conquest's story initially--because, with the inclusion of Revelations, it nullifies the central theme of choice and accepting responsibility for the consequences such decisions make.

It also makes Corrin/Kamui and Azura into dumb asses but that's neither here nor there.

Edited February 24, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[jankmaster98]

I really wish the plot could've been that Xander actually has plans to Usurp Garon, but can't enact them during this precarious time of war, or can't rally the support he needs when the nobles are too busy fighting and hating Hoshido.

[Namarid]

Characters are an incredibly important part, but it's by no means everything. On top of that, I can't say I enjoy Conquest's cast in their very own path because they act so stupidly; how am I supposed to get invested in a bunch of protagonists too afraid to the right thing and get bossed around while clenching their fists inside their pockets, only to get enough motivation to put their foot down once they've already gone too far - and even then they only act because of a terrible excuse.

Why are the protagonists criticized for acting realistically,but takumi is praised for acting realistically. I think they call this double standards. I'm pretty sure if acting out against someone ,with more authority than you, put your life at risk then you would be scared to do so and if you were strongly against what they were doing then you would do things that weren't obvious to mitigate it's effects.

[Ryas]

The real big issue with how the game's story is received is because it's written to make the player feel helpless and shitty all the time always, when most games go the opposite route and make the player feel empowered and capable.

It's stupid writing, sure, but that's not the only reason a lot of people are up in arms about this.

[joshcja]

I honestly never felt "helpless and shitty" just an overpowering urge to kill (almost) the entire hoshidan royal cast (even in their own game), but yeah back to corin... self inserts are not good sympathetic protagonists.

Edited February 24, 2016 by joshcja

[BruceLee]

Can you call it anything other than that? In the Birthright story the Hoshidan army is outmatched, outnumbered, and isolated from the main force, and the only reason they manage to succeed to in reaching the capital is because they go out of their way to avoid direct confrontation with the Nohrian main force. In Conquest, once the invasion kicks into full gear, difficulties of the map aside, it's just the Nohrian army steamrolling through Hoshido's defensive lines until they reach the capital.

Way to miss my point. You describe the invasion of Hoshido as "a quick beeline to the capital". Because all of the death and destruction resulting from the invasion is totally not a big deal right?

Edited February 24, 2016 by BruceLee

[Ryas]

A quick and overwhelming conquest of a nation would claim less lives than a much longer campaign that would result from turning a war-like nation on itself.

[BrightBow]

Why are the protagonists criticized for acting realistically,but takumi is praised for acting realistically. I think they call this double standards. I'm pretty sure if acting out against someone ,with more authority than you, put your life at risk then you would be scared to do so and if you were strongly against what they were doing then you would do things that weren't obvious to mitigate it's effects.

That's besides the point considering that we are real people and not characters in a story. And putting characters into difficult situations and having them deal with that is what drama is all about.

[Aurabolt]

So many folks are ignoring WHY Corrin suddenly decides to take point on invading Hoshido:

[spoiler=Plot Spoiler]Azura reveals to Corrin King Garon has actually been dead for some time and it's not really King Garon who is in power. Convinced beyond reasonable doubt his father is long dead and it's only a monster disguised as him,

Corrin decides to go with the greater of two evils and that takes guts. He's willing to take the credit for conquering Hoshido since he knows deep down, his Hoshidan siblings trust his judgement even though they don't fully understand the why until after the fact. Corrin also needed to show Xander, Leo, Elise and Camilla the truth without breaking his promise to Azura (talking about The Invisible Kingdom). Folks also seem to forget Corrin was being watched by Iago the whole time so it wasn't like he could just ask Ryoma to clear out the capital and let them borrow the throne for 10 minutes. LOL. Corrin was more or less forced to make the choices he made with Nohr.

...AND he did it without killing. Folks must've chosen to IGNORE the fact Corrin explicitly orders his forces to not kill any Hoshidans SEVERAL TIMES. Much to the disdain of some folks who join his forces later. The exceptions were done by other characters.

[spoiler=Plot Spoiler] This is also likely why Ryoma commits Seppuku. He knew Corrin wasn't gonna kill him even with everyone watching and knew he needed to die for Corrin's plan to work. He gladly sacrificed himself to ensure Corrin's plan could work.

The Nohrian Royal I'd be most concerned about post-game is

[spoiler=Paternity Spoiler] Elise: She was likely born after Garon's corruption so...yeah. It's likely she's not 100% human.

[Namarid]

That's besides the point considering that we are real people and not characters in a story. And putting characters into difficult situations and having them deal with that is what drama is all about.

Hmmm.I see where you're coming from. Characters acting realistically in some situations may not be the best for the narrative. Especially in this case with a self insert that may not reflect the desires of a player.

[Alazen]

Official reminder that Aqua is a faulty character and the shenanigans of Operation Chair go back to her.

[TheWerdna]

They did. It's stupid. I knew about it 7 months ago. Half-way point? More like half-assed point.

Only in it for the gameplay.

But really, there are so many things wrong here that seem to fall in line with what one would expect from the spitballed initial draft.

When exactly did Azura grab the crystal ball? Why did it break? And what's stopping her from grabbing another one and showing the Nohr sibs? And why are they now so scared of Garon that they have to just comply with his demands?

Or...

What's stopping her from going up to the Nohr sibling and saying "Hey guys, i need to tell you something. Do you trust me?" Then bringing them to Valla and explaining the damn thing!

[BruceLee]

A quick and overwhelming conquest of a nation would claim less lives than a much longer campaign that would result from turning a war-like nation on itself.

Not only is that false, but even if it was true it still doesn't excuse invading Hoshido and laying waste to anything and anyone that gets in the way of the Nohrian army.

You make it sound like it's a short sprint to the throne but ignore the fact that all of Hoshido's military power will be used to try and stop the Nohrians invading their country. In other words, if Nohr is to succeed it needs to pretty much annihilate all of Hoshido's soldiers. And lets not forget the fact that Iago and Hans and the soldiers under them have no problem massacring innocent civilians and soldiers who have surrendered. Yes, those are the people Corrin is helping walk into the streets of Hoshido.

[Jave]

I'm at Conquest Ch.23 and I agree the plot is rather dumb and ridiculous.

Pretty par for the course as far as the series go, though. It's not even the worst one.

[The DanMan]

I'm at Conquest Ch.23 and I agree the plot is rather dumb and ridiculous.

Pretty par for the course as far as the series go, though. It's not even the worst one.

Please. The only games that approach/match this level of ass-pulling are Awakening and Radiant Dawn. EDIT (Which are the two most recent games, excluding remakes. Huh... .)

Edited February 24, 2016 by The DanMan

[Jave]

Please. The only games that approach/match this level of ass-pulling are Awakening and Radiant Dawn. EDIT (Which are the two most recent games, excluding remakes. Huh... .)

Story wise, I consider FE7, FE10, FE12 and FE13 to be below what I've played of FE14 Conquest so far.

My opinion might change when I get through the whole thing, but I can't lie about how I feel.

[Ryas]

Not only is that false, but even if it was true it still doesn't excuse invading Hoshido and laying waste to anything and anyone that gets in the way of the Nohrian army.

You make it sound like it's a short sprint to the throne but ignore the fact that all of Hoshido's military power will be used to try and stop the Nohrians invading their country. In other words, if Nohr is to succeed it needs to pretty much annihilate all of Hoshido's soldiers. And lets not forget the fact that Iago and Hans and the soldiers under them have no problem massacring innocent civilians and soldiers who have surrendered. Yes, those are the people Corrin is helping walk into the streets of Hoshido.

Tell me how that's false. A civil war within Nohr would be a far bloodier and longer campaign because Corrin would essentially have to start from scratch. He'd have to rally support, capture his own territories, set up a supply chain to support his cause for the long term, etc, and he'd get none of that without a fight. And even with all of that set up the fighting would have to be much more violent and messy because Corrin's army would still be outmatched and outnumbered, unable to risk a direct engagement with Garon's army. There would be no room for mercy in these battles, because it's no longer a one-sided war like it is in the campaign against Hoshido.

Yes, invading and killing innocent Hoshidans and soldiers is inexcusable, but Corrin already knows that and is prepared to shoulder the responsibility for it. He leads the vanguard himself in the hopes of sparing his enemies and preventing as much needless killing as possible in the invasion, but he still sees it as the fastest way to end the war with the least amount of lives lost. Just because the Nohrians are the invading army doesn't make their lives any less precious than the Hoshidans, and far more Nohrian lives would be lost in a drawn out civil war in comparison to the Hoshidan lives lost in a direct warpath toward Hoshido's capital.

[Delfino]

There are a lot of ridiculous things in Conquest's story, but I really can't fault Corrin for not taking a stance against Garon.

-Garon's army and Garon himself are too strong. It'd be suicide.

-Corrin's siblings would turn on him. What proof do they have that Garon is a monster? You could say that Azura could have shown them Garon's slime form, but do they really have any reason to trust Azura? It would likely just seem like some plot from Hoshido to use Corrin to get Garon killed, and he could lose his siblings' trust from it.

-Instigating a civil war within Nohr would be a terrible idea. I know slaughtering Hoshido really isn't any better, but Corrin would also likely have to go through his siblings and their retainers, whom he's been fighting alongside this whole time. Who would he have left, then? Azura, Kaze, Silas, Jakob, Felicia, and maybe Mozu. Even if he managed to rally enough support, things would probably turn into a massacre as Ryas said.

-So let's say Corrin somehow does kill Garon. Then what? Xander takes over. Would the war with Hoshido just end? What if Xander and a big chunk of Nohr blamed Hoshido for supposedly brainwashing Corrin into starting a civil war and killing their king, and so they set off for revenge?

There are a lot of things Conquest's story could have done better (making Garon an actually interesting, complex villain instead of just a monster in disguise would have been a start), but I think going directly after Garon would have been a terrible idea.