Anybody feel like Fates is racist?

[Nukemind]

You know, I just thought of something.

Where was this amount of outrage for Plegia?

You know, Plegia. The desert country of dark-skinned people unless you were a main story playable? And they were also the "evil" country? I'm sure there's some unfortunate implications in that, along with all the main story playables being pale white. While there were people who did notice and point it out, where was this level of outrage?

Or is it okay when the "good guys" are the pale pseudo-Europeans?

Makes you wonder.

Oh that's simple. THere was no outrage because the majority of people didn't think it affected THEM. This is coming as a pasty book nerd who has never been out of the stats, but it annoys me to no end when people will cry racism at anything and everything that seems rascist against whoever/whatever they are, but if it's against someone else, well, who cares?

[Sunwoo]

Oh that's simple. THere was no outrage because the majority of people didn't think it affected THEM. This is coming as a pasty book nerd who has never been out of the stats, but it annoys me to no end when people will cry racism at anything and everything that seems rascist against whoever/whatever they are, but if it's against someone else, well, who cares?

No duh that's my point. That's why I'm calling it out.

[Nukemind]

No duh that's my point. That's why I'm calling it out.

I... yeah I need to read sarcasm better.

[Lucina's Husband]

You know, I just thought of something.

Where was this amount of outrage for Plegia?

You know, Plegia. The desert country of dark-skinned people unless you were a main story playable? And they were also the "evil" country? I'm sure there's some unfortunate implications in that, along with all the main story playables being pale white. While there were people who did notice and point it out, where was this level of outrage?

Or is it okay when the "good guys" are the pale pseudo-Europeans?

Makes you wonder.

Didn't Kyle Hebert almost have to do an offensively ethnic accent for Validar's voice?

[BrightBow]

I know that I found other aspects of the treatment of Plegia to be more disturbing, so I never thought about the racial implications that much.

But this reminds me, is their now a skin color setting for the Avatar?

Edited February 24, 2016 by BrightBow

[Ebony]

But this reminds me, is their now a skin color setting for the Avatar?

Unfortunately, no facial hair... no skin color settings...

[Volke29]

Look, someone took a social science class in college!

GO AWAY. PLEASE GO AWAY.

[Seanp12]

You know, I just thought of something.

Where was this amount of outrage for Plegia?

You know, Plegia. The desert country of dark-skinned people unless you were a main story playable? And they were also the "evil" country? I'm sure there's some unfortunate implications in that, along with all the main story playables being pale white. While there were people who did notice and point it out, where was this level of outrage?

Or is it okay when the "good guys" are the pale pseudo-Europeans?

Makes you wonder.

I don't remember very many dark-skinned Plegians that weren't Aversa or Validar. Excellus, a Grimleal, was a fat old white guy, and Mustafa looked like a buff (if tanned, but still white) Santa Claus. Plus the Feroxi Flavia and Basilio were black, and also awesome. And Aversa, though dark-skinned, was playable. And Walhart really had the white social Darwinist thing going on also, complete with fanatical followers. So there's not much to support an idea of racism.

​The difference is probably because Nohr is a playable faction, and one you're supposed to willingly choose, yet it has no redeeming qualities. Plegia were just straight up villains. And they actually do get a lot of complaints, along with Valm, for being so purely evil. They just don't cast it in a racist light because 1) people have a tendency to presume that only white people can be racist toward black people, and 2) there was no pure good Eastern-based faction to build an image of East v. West.

[Pretty_Handsome]

The game is heavily Hoshido bias so I would say it's more towards nationalism than outright racism.

It's not like American media don't portray Asians as racial stereotypes all the time and tap into yellow peril or anything. Oh wait.

Can't take you crying about a country that, while most of us, myself included, do think need more grey-grey portrayal, ultimately do have these less-than-wholesome characters still mostly portrayed in humanizing ways.

Plus Fire Emblem has a long history of representing mostly European-based nations in positive lights, so forgive me if I can't take one European country being portrayed negatively as "racism" seriously.

Irrelevant. This is about Fates not the other games.

Fates does indeed portray Hoshido as the outright good guys while Nohr is just plain stupid and/or evil and it constantly makes you feel like trash for going Conquest over Birthright as Nohr Corrin is just so dumb and unlikeable compared to Hoshido Corrin.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Pretty_Handsome

[BrightBow]

Unfortunately, no facial hair... no skin color settings...

That's disappointing. I realize there is less of a need to this for a Japanese audience but despite this, I can't even name a Japanese series with Avatar creation that does not have a skin color setting.

But if nothing else, I would have expected NoA would ask their Japanese co-workers to ensure that such a thing gets added next time.

[Dwlr]

You know, I just thought of something.

Where was this amount of outrage for Plegia?

You know, Plegia. The desert country of dark-skinned people unless you were a main story playable? And they were also the "evil" country? I'm sure there's some unfortunate implications in that, along with all the main story playables being pale white. While there were people who did notice and point it out, where was this level of outrage?

Or is it okay when the "good guys" are the pale pseudo-Europeans?

Makes you wonder.

It's my favorite Fire Emblem to date because I'm so "outraged" right? Sounds legit.

The game is heavily Hoshido bias so I would say it's more towards nationalism than outright racism.

I went with racism simply because it appears to me to be several European countries tied into Nohr and I wanted to lump them together, but it would seem the choice of words brought out those looking to cause drama like Sunwoo when it was a simply inquiry I do believe I mentioned in the opening that I didn't care i.e. wasn't offended at all, but yet some people just want to put words your mouth on these sort of things.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Dwlr

[Thor Odinson]

The game is heavily Hoshido bias so I would say it's more towards nationalism than outright racism.

Irrelevant. This is about Fates not the other games.

Fates does indeed portray Hoshido as the outright good guys while Nohr is just plain stupid and/or evil and it constantly makes you feel like trash for going Conquest over Birthright as Nohr Corrin is just so dumb and unlikeable compared to Hoshido Corrin.

However, the characters in Nohr are portrayed as human beings, fucked up as some of them are. Like I said, it could be handled a lot better, but for me the characters also have this, they're fucked up, but at the end of the day they're people with their histories and personalties vibe. I'm someone from a country that Japan's done some real shit to. Chinese represent. This ain't shit.

If anything, I wouldn't even blame Japan for viewing the west as aggressors--Japan's historically on rocky terms with its neighbors and has been very aggressive to us in the past century, but looking back at American-Japan relations--America's the reason Japan got 2 nukes dropped on them and no longer has an army. America's the one who showed up to Japan's door with a shitload of boats and forced them to modernize in the first place.

Fire Emblem has never been the paragon of perfect racial portrayals, but Fates is getting disproportionate amount of responses over this.

[Nukemind]

It's my favorite Fire Emblem to date because I'm so "outraged" right? Sounds legit.

I went with racism simply because it appears to me to be several European countries tied into Nohr and I wanted to lump them together, but it would seem the choice of words brought out those looking to cause drama like Sunwoo when it was a simply inquiry I do believe I mentioned in the opening that I didn't care i.e. wasn't offended at all, but yet some people just want to put words your mouth on these sort of things.

Which nations do you think are tied to Nohr? Looking at the Topography the closest I can see is North Italy, Western Austria, or Switzerland.

[Dwlr]

If anything, I wouldn't even blame Japan for viewing the west as aggressors--Japan's historically on rocky terms with its neighbors and has been very aggressive to us in the past century, but looking back at American-Japan relations--America's the reason Japan got 2 nukes dropped on them and no longer has an army. America's the one who showed up to Japan's door with a shitload of boats and forced them to modernize in the first place.

America stayed out of the World War for decent while and Japan totally didn't bomb Pearl Harbor in an undeclared act of war right?

Which nations do you think are tied to Nohr? Looking at the Topography the closest I can see is North Italy, Western Austria, or Switzerland.

With the class system getting English/French mostly with hints of Nazi Germany/Fascist Italy. the topography has little to do with anything

Edited February 24, 2016 by Dwlr

[Anacybele]

America's the reason Japan got 2 nukes dropped on them and no longer has an army. America's the one who showed up to Japan's door with a shitload of boats and forced them to modernize in the first place.

Fire Emblem has never been the paragon of perfect racial portrayals, but Fates is getting disproportionate amount of responses over this.

There were reasons the US did those things to them. 1. They were allied with the Nazis and all, and 2. they bombed our Pearl Harbor which wasn't even provoked. The US wasn't even really that involved in the war until that happened. Also, if the US hadn't dropped those A-bombs, a lot more lives might've been lost in both countries in the long run. I remember learning all this in my history classes back in high school, and found it rather interesting.

Anyway, I don't think Fates is meant to be racist or anything. The west has had its share of fucked up leaders and stuff anyway. And the Nohr siblings aren't presented as evil, it's only Garon that's evil. And some other Nohrians present opposition to Garon as well, at least in Birthright. And in the end, SOMEONE had to be the villain.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Anacybele

[Thor Odinson]

America stayed out of the World War for decent while and Japan totally didn't bomb Pearl Harbor in an undeclared act of war right?

Pearl Harbor is on Japan yes, but 2 nuclear bombs is a really disproportionate response.

If memory is correct, Japan is also the only country that actually got nukes dropped on them. They really shouldn't be invented in the first place. I remember learning that Japan is ready to surrender at that point--but they wanted to keep their emperor around and America wanted to force their hand more.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[raptor9299]

Nohr is basically Europe and Hoshido is more or less Japan right? Well Nohr has serial killers, warmongers, and in general the people with the character flaws and the main villain is Nohrian, meanwhile Hoshido is portrayed as once peace loving nation that the Nohrians ruined. I mean I don't care or anything, but I do feel it has at least some racial connotations against Westerners, anybody else feel that way? Additionally the classes that one might deem 'evil' or 'dark' or what have you all pretty much belong to Nohr as well. Why are all Butlers suddenly Ninja Assassins just to fill class void? Is it because it's always the butler who done it? The butlers seem more like castle stewards than butlers to me as well, but that's neither here nor there.

Not really part of this, but if they're going to go with French names for some skills, and give us werewolves which are germanic in origin they could have at least called them Blutbaden.

I didn't, what is up with people trying to find a minor detail to be offended by? One nation needed to be the warmongering nation and we know that the devs will probably biased towards their own nation.

[Anacybele]

Pearl Harbor is on Japan yes, but 2 nuclear bombs is a really disproportionate response.

If memory is correct, Japan is also the only country that actually got nukes dropped on them. They really shouldn't be invented in the first place. I remember learning that Japan is ready to surrender at that point--but they wanted to keep their emperor around and America wanted to force their hand more.

Japan was ready to surrender? I don't think so. From what I was taught in my history classes, the war would've lasted longer and more lives would've been lost on both sides if the US hadn't dropped the bombs. They did what they had to do to save as many people from BOTH countries as they could.

[Nukemind]

America stayed out of the World War for decent while and Japan totally didn't bomb Pearl Harbor in an undeclared act of war right?

With the class system getting English/French mostly with hints of Nazi Germany/Fascist Italy. the topography has little to do with anything

Ah gotcha. I actually discounted both as Fascism was generally anti-monarchist (Italy still had a king but they curtailed his power), and really all they have in similar is being "Bad" and invading other nations.

Japan was ready to surrender? I don't think so. From what I was taught in my history classes, the war would've lasted longer and more lives would've been lost on both sides if the US hadn't dropped the bombs. They did what they had to do to save as many people from BOTH countries as they could.

Actually, they WERE ready to surrender. We bombed them not knowing that for a coupla reasons.

1.- We asked for unconditional surrender. They sent back a message saying they were thinking about it. We mistranslated it as a redusal.

2.- We needed them to surrender ASAP as the Russians were taking territory and we didn't want it to be Communist Post War.

3.- We weren't sure they were on the edge of surrender, and it would save many troops to just bomb them into submission.

IF they had fought and IF we had invaded the world would be much different. No baby boombers, no economic miracle, possibly a North and South Japan, etc.

The moment the Soviets invaded, however, memo's in the Japanese government indicated they were ready to seek whatever peace they could with the Americans. They wanted to protect the home isles.

As they say, hindsight is 20/20, We did the best with that we knew. Honestly, Atomic Bombs weren't near as bad as the firebombing of Dresden, Cologne, or Tokyo.

[Anacybele]

Well, if we didn't know they wanted to surrender, that's just an unfortunate mistake. It doesn't make the US terrible or anything...

[saisymbolic]

Forgive me in advance I am mistaken but, if I recall correctly, the reason America dropped bombs Hiroshima and Nagasaki because they were like two the largest military sectors or something like that. Most of us were taught that it was done as it was the lesser of two evils but I also remember reading that Japan also had something called Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night, which was basically to engage upon civilians living around Southern California with pathogens.

America gets a lot of flak for dropping those bombs but people fail to realize that in war, there is no such thing as an innocent--there are only the soldiers and the victims.

(That quote totally came from a movie/video game/book I can't remember.)

[Nukemind]

Well, if we didn't know they wanted to surrender, that's just an unfortunate mistake. It doesn't make the US terrible or anything...

Exactly. I wasn't attacking the USA, I actually in this instance say it was the right decision. If I was in the same position, I would do the same thing (I believe- hard to put you mind in the exact same position).

Forgive me in advance I am mistaken but, if I recall correctly, the reason America dropped bombs Hiroshima and Nagasaki because they were like two the largest military sectors or something like that. Most of us were taught that it was done as it was the lesser of two evils but I also remember reading that Japan also had something called Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night, which was basically to engage upon civilians living around Southern California with pathogens.

America gets a lot of flak for dropping those bombs but people fail to realize that in war, there is no such thing as an innocent--there are only the soldiers and the victims.

(That quote totally came from a movie/video game/book I can't remember.)

Nagasaki and Hiroshima WERE NOT complete military installations. One, I can't remember which, was literally the third choice. The first two cities had cloud cover so we dropped it on the third. Yes, they had developed Pathogens, and used them in China. They dropped ceramic bombs filled with bacteria.

The BIG thing people rarely here about is the I-401's which carried planes. At the time of surrender, one was headed to bomb the Panama Canal, which was lightly defended as we thought it was safe. That would have ruined international shipping for YEARS.

[raptor9299]

Also, both sides seem to have been a jab at the imperialism the world was into.

[Dwlr]

There were reasons the US did those things to them. 1. They were allied with the Nazis and all, and 2. they bombed our Pearl Harbor which wasn't even provoked. The US wasn't even really that involved in the war until that happened. Also, if the US hadn't dropped those A-bombs, a lot more lives might've been lost in both countries in the long run. I remember learning all this in my history classes back in high school, and found it rather interesting.

Also were going to bomb Kyoto, but changed it before we did for the history that would have been lost to Japan and all things considered I'd say that was rather considerate too boot.

[Book Bro]

Like others have said, US popular media very often portrays people from other countries in a negative way as well, or at least stereotypically, while glorifying the US. It's why I can't take people complaining about how Hoshido is "Glorious Nippon" seriously. At least the Nohr siblings and most of the playable characters are shown to be good people on the wrong side.