FE14 Draft Ruleset Discussion

[General Horace]

Now that i've finished both Birthright and Conquest I think I have SOME idea what a ruleset should look like for each game. I'm still a bit fuzzy on chapter numbers, so bear with me if I get some wrong and feel free to correct me. If you haven't beaten both games/cheated and looked at the story I guess there are technically some very, very, very, minor spoilers so if you're OCD about that you've been warned.

I've bolded stuff that I'm unsure of.

[spoiler=Birthright tenative rules?:]

Drafting:

1. This draft is for 3?/4?/5? players

2. Corrin, Gunter, Felicia/Jakob*, and Azura are free for all

3. The game will played on Hard Classic mode?

Rules:

1. Undrafted units may: pair up with undrafted units and trade with undrafted/drafted units (but must not be in range of a drafted unit when battling)

2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to: pairing up with drafted units, entering batte, meatshielding, healing and supporting with drafted units.

3. NPC units may do as they please without penalty.

4. Paralogues excluding 1x are optional and are free up to 20 turns.

5. Challenge battles are banned, as are any invasion battles.

6. Use of DLC and Spotpass (including Free Content) is strictly prohibited.

My Castle Rules?:

1. You may build, upgrade, and use any of the following: Armoury, Rod Store, Smithy, Arena, Prison, Lilith's Temple, and Hot Springs. Using any other building is prohibited.
2. You may upgrade and use your Garthering Spots (ore and veggies).

3. You may build and upgrade any puppet for the purpose of recruiting Yukimura.

4. You may not use weapons given to you by allies in my castle.

Extra:
1. Avatar may choose any Gender, Boon/Bane, and Talent.

Penalties:

1. Use of an undrafted unit is a 10 turn penalty.

Exceptions:
1. I'm a fan of a few free units as possible, most free units join early and contribute a lot early on, I've seen people make everyone free up to Chapter 7, but I think it'd be cool to have them draftable as Kaze and Rinkah aren't superstars (at turn saving anyway) all game long and saving a couple turns earlygame helps player compete with others that get someone like Hinoka or Ryoma later on. What are people's thoughts here? Chapter 4 is kind of worrysome, But Ryoma's around to blow up dudes for you.

2. Only the servant that joins you in chapter 2 is free. The servant that joins in Chapter 15 is a draftable unit.

I've made the servant free for all, leaving us with 28 draftable units, 7 apiece. Good? Azura's, Corn's and Jakob's kid are draftable. Uh, go Female Corn if you pick Dwyer! (or just draft ch15 jakob)

[spoiler=units remaining]

Kaze + Midori

Rinkah

Hana

Sakura

Subaki + Caeldori

Silas + Sophie

Saizo + Asugi

Orochi

Mozu

Hinoka

Azama + Mitama

Setsuna

Hayato + Rhajat

Oboro

Hinata + Hisame

Takumi + Kiragi

Kagero

Reina

Kaden + Selkie

Ryoma + Shiro

Scarlet

Felicia/Jakob (Chapter 15)

Izana

Shura

Yukimura

Kana

Shigure
Dwyer

[spoiler=Conquest Tenative Rules?:]

Drafting:

1. This draft is for 3?/4?/5? players

2. Corrin, Gunter*, Felicia/Jakob**, Rinkah, and Azura are free for all

3. The game will played on Hard Classic mode? Conquest Hard Mode is pretty tough (especially in a draft), I haven't played normal mode, is it a big step down? The draft hosted here earlier had up to the route split played on Hard then switched to Normal. I think Xander will need to be free on Hard Mode, he's too clutch lategame in my opinion. He should be ok to be notfree on normal though. Camilla ban or free?

Rules:

1. Undrafted units may: pair up with undrafted units and trade with undrafted/drafted units (but must not be in range of a drafted unit when battling)

2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to: pairing up with drafted units, entering batte, meatshielding, healing and supporting with drafted units.

3. NPC units may do as they please without penalty.

4. Paralogues excluding 1x are optional and are free **Note I haven't played all the children paralogues yet, if there's a reason to set a turncount limit on them, please let me know!**

5. Challenge battles are banned, as are any invasion battles.

6. Use of DLC and Spotpass (including Free Content) is strictly prohibited.

7. Camilla is banned with the exception of use in Chapter 10.

My Castle Rules?:

1. You may build, upgrade, and use any of the following: Armoury, Rod Store, Smithy, Arena, Prison, Lilith's Temple, and Hot Springs. Using any other building is prohibited.
2. You may upgrade and use your Garthering Spots (ore and veggies).

3. You may build and upgrade any Siege weapon for the purpose of recruiting Flora.

4. You may not use weapons given to you by allies in my castle.

Extra:
1. Avatar may choose any Gender, Boon/Bane, and Talent.

Penalties:

1. Use of an undrafted unit is a 10 turn penalty.

Exceptions:
1. I'm a fan of a few free units as possible, most free units join early and contribute a lot early on, I've seen people make everyone free up to Chapter 7, but I think it'd be cool to have them draftable as Kaze isn't a superstar (at turn saving anyway) all game long and saving a couple turns earlygame helps player compete with others that get someone like Arthur's Chin later on. This is less worrysome since Rinkah is actually free here. Maybe I should make her free on Birthright too?

2. Only the servant that joins in chapter 2 is free. The other is a draftable unit recruited at the end of Chapter 15.

3. Gunter is only free for chapter 2 and 3. He's a draftable unit starting in chapter 16.

4. Gunter is free for Chapter 15.

5. You can choose two undrafted units to use in Chapter 10, along with Camilla.

[spoiler=units remaining]

Silas + Sophie

Elise

Effie

Arthur + Percy

Mozu

Odin + Ophelia

Niles + Nina

Nyx

Selena

Beruka

Kaze + Midori

Laslow + Soleil

Peri

Benny + Ignatius
Charlotte

Leo + Forrest

Keaton + Velouria

Gunter

Felicia/Jakob (Chapter 15)

Xander + Siegbert

Shura

Flora

Izana

Kana

Shigure

Dwyer

Edited February 25, 2016 by General Horace

[Jedi]

Looks solid, I'm finishing up Birthright right now, but wouldn't it make sense for Ryoma to be free considering how much he can stomp?

[Ice Sage]

If Nohr is on hard I'd say xander free as well. lategame gets really tough

[Nobody]

I think Camilla should be free on 10 and banned after that, at least in Normal. On hard I think she could be free, but I'm not sure.

I think it'd be better to start without any restriction on the avatar and then deciding or not on putting them after seeing the differences in turn counts depending on his class. I think forbidding him from reclassing could also work.

I'd put a turn limit on the children paralogues as well. Maybe 20, like the optional FE7 side quests.

Looks solid, I'm finishing up Birthright right now, but wouldn't it make sense for Ryoma to be free considering how much he can stomp?

I haven't played birthright yet, but if he's so good, wouldn't it be better to ban him?

Edited February 25, 2016 by Nobody

[Jedi]

I haven't played birthright yet, but If he's so good, wouldn't it be better to ban him?

Some of the more stressful chapters would be irritating considering he's one of the few units who can tank on Hoshido...

[General Horace]

Looks solid, I'm finishing up Birthright right now, but wouldn't it make sense for Ryoma to be free considering how much he can stomp?

Ryoma is really really good, but he's also a later joining unit. I dunno if he's worth blowing a first pick over. Something to test out!

If Nohr is on hard I'd say xander free as well. lategame gets really tough

Yeah, he carried me really hard. I think most drafts will be on normal for Nohr. Camilla and Xander will be free for Hardmode drafts I think.

I think Camilla should be free on 10 and banned after that.

I think it'd be better to start without any restriction on the avatar and then decide or not on putting them after seeing the differences in turn counts depending on his class. I think forbidding him from reclassing could also work.

I'd put a turn limit on the children paralogues as well. Maybe 20, like the optional FE7 side quests.

Yeah, Camilla would probably overcentralize the game and make a good number of chapters more or less the same regardless of team because she's that good. I agree on the avatar deal too, I think Awankaning and FE12 drafts started off with him unrestricted but I don't think it matters quite as much in this game. I'll set 20 turns as a sidequest limit.

I wanna run a draft with draftable Ryoma before we decide if he's too ridiculous or not. He's either a draftable unit or a banned one though, I agree.

Opinions on Forging and Capture? Capture can net you quite a few units, which might be really good in a draft, but I honestly haven't played around with it enough to determine if its worth it, and you have to spend money/get lucky to recruit them from what i've seen. Forging is kind of luck based what mineral you get but you can compensate with arena useage after oreswapping so i'm inclined to keep it in.

Edited February 25, 2016 by General Horace

[Jedi]

Ryoma is really really good, but he's also a later joining unit. I dunno if he's worth blowing a first pick over. Something to test out!

Alright, I'm willing to see how that goes.

[Nobody]

Opinions on Forging and Capture? Capture can net you quite a few units, which might be really good in a draft, but I honestly haven't played around with it enough to determine if its worth it, and you have to spend money/get lucky to recruit them from what i've seen. Forging is kind of luck based what mineral you get but you can compensate with arena useage after oreswapping so i'm inclined to keep it in.

IMO, Forging should be allowed but Capture should be banned. If the player is allowed to visit other castles for gems, then Forging stops being luck based. Capture in my opinion kind of contradicts the principle of a draft, since you'd be able to complete your team with the capturable enemies, and I don't doubt that some of them are better than someone like Odin, and it'd also give the player with Niles, who is already a good unit, a big advantage.

[General Horace]

Yeah, we could allow the visiting of other castles for gems for forging, but don't you get dragon vein points for doing so? I'd be ok if people restricted to one per chapter. I agree with capture though, too many units that are pretty much as good as weaker draftable units.

[Shinori]

I should probably go do my play through on hard so I'm ready for this. I made my first playthrough lunatic Conquest so I'm still working on that.

Hopefully I'll be ready for this when we start drafting.

Also I have an idea that I'd like to play around with but it would be a draft that requires it's own complete ruleset. A draft that involves both conquest and Birthright and you draft for both in the same draft. I think it might be a challenging and fun idea.

[General Horace]

I should probably go do my play through on hard so I'm ready for this. I made my first playthrough lunatic Conquest so I'm still working on that.

Hopefully I'll be ready for this when we start drafting.

Also I have an idea that I'd like to play around with but it would be a draft that requires it's own complete ruleset. A draft that involves both conquest and Birthright and you draft for both in the same draft. I think it might be a challenging and fun idea.

I imagine that will be even better once revelation is out too,

I'm gonna toss up a birthright draft for now since it's probably easier to work out the kinks for that.

[joshcja]

(looking to get into this format so here's my 2 cents)

Camilia free on hard+ sounds completely fine to start with, if she gets too out of control there's nothing stopping a ban from happening later. The resources required to fill the void she leaves in the early/midgame seem like they would vary drastically by pick order.

Wouldn't it simplify forging rules to just limit to one forge per map no visits for now? Its still a bit of rng early on but offers an interesting bit character use variation/could potentialy affect picks depending on what weapon type you can heavily forge. (shoutouts to fe8 first round syndrome)

Edit again: I would actually consider xander a draftable rather than free unit the early pool is honestly abundant with its EP tanks so a hard carry isn't actually needed to complete the lategame and he saves enough turns when low manning to be worth an actual pick.

Edit: People are going to look at me crazy for this but... silias, discuss, vow of friendship in LTC/efficiency settings is incredibly powerful read: tanks multiple beastkillers to the face on chbossdieshorriblyoffscreen, completely trivializes ch10/17/etc by running directly at the boss in guard stance. The other early units are still really good and corin/jakob exist but in terms of total tuns saved sillyass is just head and shoulders above every other possible round 1.

Edited February 25, 2016 by joshcja

[General Horace]

(looking to get into this format so here's my 2 cents)

Camilia free on hard+ sounds completely fine to start with, if she gets too out of control there's nothing stopping a ban from happening later. The resources required to fill the void she leaves in the early/midgame seem like they would vary drastically by pick order.

Wouldn't it simplify forging rules to just limit to one forge per map no visits for now? Its still a bit of rng early on but offers an interesting bit character use variation/could potentialy affect picks depending on what weapon type you can heavily forge. (shoutouts to fe8 first round syndrome)

Edit again: I would actually consider xander a draftable rather than free unit the early pool is honestly abundant with its EP tanks so a hard carry isn't actually needed to complete the lategame and he saves enough turns when low manning to be worth an actual pick.

Edit: People are going to look at me crazy for this but... silias, discuss, vow of friendship in LTC/efficiency settings is incredibly powerful read: tanks multiple beastkillers to the face on chbossdieshorriblyoffscreen, completely trivializes ch10/17/etc by running directly at the boss in guard stance. The other early units are still really good and corin/jakob exist but in terms of total tuns saved sillyass is just head and shoulders above every other possible round 1.

Yeah I think people definately need Camilla in the midgame on Hardmode. Jakob is pretty solid as a GK but Triple E ranks hurt him quite a bit.

I made the forging only one per chapter in the Birthright draft I put up last night. I just think that allowing the visiting of other castles just to get ore so someone doesn't get super lucky and is able to forge shurikens for Kaze early on or something while someone is stuck with the near pointless bow forges (for Birthright anyway). Once the arena exists you can eventually do Ore swapping but having a potential advantage for early players purely up to luck seems kind of silly.

Honestly I spread exp way too widely in my run of Conquest so a lot of my units were pretty underlevelled come lategame so my reliance on Xander was probably overstated, especially since draft teams will be pretty small. I think leaving him as a draftable unit should be fine until proven unneeded.

Silas seems really really good but I think we'll leave him in until he's for sure considered a broken pick. He does seem kind of like Franz in a draft setting though.

[joshcja]

Yeah my interest and statements were made entire from a (lunatic) conquest POV. I like birthright casually but I have no interest in actually optimizing the game.

Edited February 25, 2016 by joshcja

[General Horace]

The same principal for forging still applies with Conquest. An early forge in the right weapon is a godsend compared to someone having say, tome forges without having Nyx or Odin on their team (and even then it can't be that useful...)

[XeKr]

I'd say no forging, in case people want to play in places without consistent wifi (on a trip, etc).

Jakob is going to be really strong with Mozu's paralogue to train weapon rank, 8 move and promoted bases. But probably be conservative with rules until things are better understood.

I do kinda like a rule of forced deployment = free as it's very simple, but I don't feel that strongly about it.

[joshcja]

I honestly would not mind tomes (or bows for that matter) at all on luna conquest. (It would suck on any other version/difficulty though)

Odin/Ophelia is honestly pretty amazing in lunatic low man/LTC (where nostanking is actually good) and there is the option of a +def Diviner!Corin, thanks to the fixed rng you can rig the exp skill super hard for a very early rally magic, make a broken kana/other kid who you pass rally to (probably jacobs brat) by abusing early kids off levels you are NOT supposed to have that early and orko with forged nos in the mid to late game with mag pot+rally+ passive damage up stack.

Edited February 25, 2016 by joshcja

[General Horace]

I'd say no forging, in case people want to play in places without consistent wifi (on a trip, etc).

Jakob is going to be really strong with Mozu's paralogue to train weapon rank, 8 move and promoted bases. But probably be conservative with rules until things are better understood.

I do kinda like a rule of forced deployment = free as it's very simple, but I don't feel that strongly about it.

Yeah that point on forging brings up a pretty good point actually. I can see Jakob being banned from reclassing in the future but I mean, everyone has him. I'm not a fan of the forced = free because there are some units that contribute a LOT in their join chapters (I imagine chapter 7 without Hana/Subaki or even Niles is a lot tougher, and they shouldn't be hard to keep out of combat. The only forced unit I think needs to be free is Chapter 15 Gunter.

I honestly would not mind tomes (or bows for that matter) at all on luna conquest. (It would suck on any other version/difficulty though)

Odin/Ophelia is honestly pretty amazing in lunatic/low man LTC (where nostanking is actually good) and there is the option of a +def Diviner!Corin, thanks to the fixed rng you can rig the exp skill super hard for a very early rally magic, make a broken kana/other kid (probably jacobs brat) by abusing early kids off levels you are NOT supposed to have and orko with nos in the mid to late game with mag pot+rally+ passive damagebuff stack + forged nos.

Nah bows are good for Conquest I agree there.

I'm leaning more towards banning forging now with the above points though.

[joshcja]

Edit: ignore what used to be here:

Just look up how many gems are available for converted forges on an optimal DVP route and limit it by that if you want total fairness.

Banned forges on hard/lunatic conquest would make the game exceptionally turtley (birthright weapons are so broken you can manage without forge on any difficulty so I can see banning it there)

Edited February 25, 2016 by joshcja

[Darros]

4. You may not use weapons given to you by allies in my castle.

Honestly just scrap my castle conversations altogether. You can get stat boosts or support conversations out of these anyway and even though they're minor they're not quite fair. ((IIRC the room thing in Awakening was banned outright?))

EDIT: Holy shit it isn't. Maybe it should be. Anyway I know it's minor but it might be worth putting down. A +2 speed or strength can really be helpful sometimes.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Papyrus

[General Horace]

Yeah, that's a good point.

Banning Jakob from reclassing (at least until a certain chapter anyway) is in order for Birthright at least, he invalidates most of the early draftees. Corrin probably restricted to unmounted classes only.

[Nobody]

I wonder if with reclassed Jakob banned, male Corrin would be a more viable option.

[General Horace]

I thought about forcing Male Corrin, but I dunno what people think about that.

Strategist Felicia is decent but has like 2? base defence and isn't on the same level.

I think i'm gonna put a conquest draft up once I finish the last few chapters of the birthright one.

Edited March 12, 2016 by General Horace

[eclipse]

I didn't reclass Jakob. He's still really good, because he can cause significant damage with shuriken (which I am super-reliant on, because it's consistent 1-2 range damage, plus a stat drop, and Jakob is a lot tankier than Felicia/most other early mages).

IMO a reclass ban on Jakob/Felicia until Chapter 15 should do it. That's when the other one joins.

[General Horace]

That simplifies things. Yeah, he's still decent for the first half of the game as a butler, but as a Pally/GK he's on a whole other level. He's like FE7 Marcus with no weapon ranks, but good growths and an insane exp gain.

Edited March 13, 2016 by General Horace