So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[Alazen]

Conquest tries to spin Corrin as a shining paragon (see somehow winning battles while doing a no-kill run) complete with the narrative twisting itself not to vilify him.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Alazen

[RedRob]

The biggest problem isn't how Corrin acts, as so much as how the story responds to it and details it. If Corrin face logical consequences for his actions, or they give a better reason for his stupidity, like Garon abused them into submission, or was a kind ruler doing horrible things for the good of his people, or held someone dear to the sibilings as hostages, then there wouldn't be much as a problem. Except from dumbasses who believe characters like shinji ikari suck just because they angst about their problems like regular people do.

But the story constantly creates contrived and senseless justifications for his behavior. This, to me at least, is what makes him a Stu, and the other protagonists not a stu. The others don't have the story bending backwards to justify their actions. Micaiah recognizes her actions as horrible, but knows that they are unfortunately necessary to defend her country, and is called out by people on all sides, and isn't portrayed as a moral paragon. Marth is just defending and reclaiming his kingdom. Eliwood was killing those who were plotting to take over the country and overthrow the king while trying to find his missing father. No excuses are made and/or needed to justify their actions.

But Corrin, is for all intents and purposes, a self-righteous fool who the story wants us to see as a hero, even though he essentially helps kill thousands of innocents in order to "save" those people's country, and follows orders from a man who is obviously evil to the point Xander and the others are stupid for following him. He also have people like Iago who wants to make him miserable. Why? We don't know, he just does. At least other villains have reasons like they are insane or want revenge or are greedy. But Iago is never given a reason, making him more of a plot device to make us fell bad for Corrin than a person acting for his own goals. Heck, they even have Takumi, who was right in trusting that Corrin won't help Hoshido, at the end of conquest apologize for that, even though his suspicions of Corrin was right, since Corrin did kill Takumi's follow countrymen and his brother, Ryouma, in that route, just to cement Corrin's status as a "moral paragon" even though he isn't. Innocents are dead by his own hands, just so he could "save" them from his tyrant of a father, and yet the story still tries to tell us he can do no wrong. Quite the paradox isn't it?

In short, He's a stu because the story constantly makes excuses after excuses to establish him as someone who can do no wrong, even after innocents are dead due to his actions, and all he does through the story is whine about how he can't save people, and only revolts after Hoshido is conquered and who knows how many are dead. Here's an idea, kill Hans and Iago and pass it off as them dying in battle, instead of whining about all the people they killed, and prevent them from killing more. It doesn't help that the story tries to portray Conquest as the wrong route with Corrin's constant angst over all the people he killed, while in Birthright we see no angst about him killing Nohrians, yet they pull stuff like the takumi thing above in to try and absolve him of any wrongs.

If I have been too vague in my comment, it's because I working a lot off of my memory, it's a bit late and I'm tired from staring at my screen, and I been writing, editing and checking stuff for this comment for nearly an hour, and I don't want to waste more time checking stuff while who knows how many comments have been posted.

Though I'm pretty sure Thane will be happy to expand on my points and clarify them. He probably has all his complaints about Conquest memorized like the back of his hand.

EDIT:Okay, looks like maybe half a page to a page of comments have been added to this thread since I started typing.

Edited March 5, 2016 by RedRob

[Katryn]

So, I've finally had a chance to play part of Conquest and part of Birthright. I'm up to the start of Chapter 13 and Chapter 21 respectively. Here are my thoughts:

-- Conquest Corrin's naivete and inability / unwillingness to really take a stand is resulting further and further in frustration and questioning why I'm playing the game. As others have said, this should -never- get to the point it has here, and from what I understand (since I really don't care about spoilers) it only gets worse.

-- The "works for the evil side but never kills anyone' shtick does not pardon Nohrrin from being a completely hopeless moron.

-- I'm still questing where, how and why the character had the moral standards he or she displayed in Chapter 2. I guess that's what happens when you leave raising your kidnapped son / daughter to others rather than actively molding them in your image.

-- The sequence between Garon and Iago during chapter 12 made me want to head-desk. Garon tells Iago he doesn't need him to understand, only to obey. He then goes ahead and tells Iago (i.e. us) the 'reasons' anyway despite his comment. This is only further irritating because the reasons are not actually made clear to the player. You *can* make something clear to a player or reader that the heroic character does not know about. If done well, this can be useful and can build tension and connection with the audience. As this interlude stands, however, it was a waste of time.

It does make me question how involved Iago was in Elise's illness and whether he caused it. He seems to have some pretty funky powers so I wouldn't want to rule it out. In fact, if I was behind this story doing that would've come back to bite him and (considering how popular Elise is) would have made killing the creep even more delicious down the road.

-- We never do get a properly established motivation about why Iago is initially trying to kill Corrin to begin with. That said, I find it amusing that Iago is more hesitant / questioning of Garon wanting to make Corrin suffer when Iago has wanted their head from the beginning.

-- You know you did it wrong when the character I'm still empathizing with the most heavily is Takumi, especially when this version of Takumi was initially why I thought I'd hate him. Of course, it could be the 'your first path becomes your favorite' theory being proven true for yet another poster here at SF.

If my theory about Takumi comes true--that Iago is behind his eventual issues and was able to do this because of the hatred / rage / w/e Takumi already held, I feel he is potentially the most tragic character in the game and the most biting consequence of the choice Corrin has to make. Even when I fought him in Chapter 10 he was complaining of head pain by the end--and if I remember right that was a symptom of his possession when we saved him from that in Birthright.

-- A game can make you feel good. A game can make you BE bad. But a choice you make should not tell you that you feel bad. (Not to be confused with *making* you, the gamer, feel remorse). There's nothing wrong with showing Corrin getting worn down, but there are lines Corrin has--along with one Ryoma had last night that, again, made me wanna head-desk. I think it went something like "My retainers are strong, too. And they fight for a far more noble cause." <--dude, give it a rest! We get it already.

-- I also find it very odd that you are playing the 'bad' side and the 'villains' of the 'bad side' are out to get you. Even in a Saturday morning cartoon or an old school video game the villains generally only threaten their lackies with punishment when they fail a mission. They generally don't set them up to fail or deliberately put things in their way. (In most cases they don't need to--such characters tend to be archetypically incompetent to begin with.)

I'm trying to give Conquest as fair a chance as I can, but playing it and Birthright close together the reality of how the two games are effecting *me* as a player is unavoidable. And this is coming from someone who spent a lot of time playing a Sith in Star Wars: The Old Republic. I've got no issues with playing a character doing bad things. I do have issues playing a character who has a chronic knack for failure which I know is--in no satisfying way--going to improve.

IN short: I thought Conquest was going to be a lot of things when I was getting ready to play it. What I got didn't really match up with any of them. Pity.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Katryn

[Wayward Alchemist]

Female version, though both are good in my opinion. Both of them look very elegant to me. And as Smash Bros shows, they have dancer-like movements and the occasional feral/wild stance to get the point across that they aren't entirely human.

I find it appealing.

I'd rather have Smash Corrin over the Corrin we got any day. They seem like they combine the good aspects of Corrin's personalities in the routes, and while this Corrin would be Mary Sue af, as a player role they would be much better with a multi-faceted personality so a lot more people can relate to aspects of their personalities.

Also Smash F!Corrin's lisp is totally adorable.

[RedRob]

I'd rather have Smash Corrin over the Corrin we got any day. They seem like they combine the good aspects of Corrin's personalities in the routes, and while this Corrin would be Mary Sue af, as a player role they would be much better with a multi-faceted personality so a lot more people can relate to aspects of their personalities.

Also Smash F!Corrin's lisp is totally adorable.

Smash Corrin is smart if you ask me. They realizes both sides of their family is crazy and obsessed with them, and is like "Screw it, I'm out of here" and becomes a smasher to achieve fame and fortune.

At least, that's how I interpret them.

[Sunwoo]

Smash Corrin is smart if you ask me. They realizes both sides of their family is crazy and obsessed with them, and is like "Screw it, I'm out of here" and becomes a smasher to achieve fame and fortune.

At least, that's how I interpret them.

The only good Kamui is a non-canon Kamui?

[Abysswalker25]

The only good Kamui is a non-canon Kamui?

Pssh. Smash is the canon choice.

And I think Revelations Corrin is probably the best representation in all seriousness.

[Wayward Alchemist]

The only good Kamui is a non-canon Kamui?

Pretty much. But when you think about it, they seem like an actual good character. They have a spine, and when they've had enough they've had enough, but they aren't just always angry and GAAAH FITE ME WORLD. Like their calm victory quote ("That went well!") shows that they are capable of compassion and rational thinking. Honestly Revelations Corrin might be the best character but the decision makes no sense at all.

"Ummm.... Hoshido or Nohr? Hoshido or Nohr? Blood or bond?

Screw it, I'm gonna run off to a magical realm that I have no proof even exists with someone I literally just met and leave all you hoes hanging."

[RedRob]

The only good Kamui is a non-canon Kamui?

If you were stuck between choosing between a sister who wants to bone you, two morons for brothers, and Elise, and strangers who claim to be your family, with one wanting to kill you, wouldn't you want to get out of there?

[Sunwoo]

If you were stuck between choosing between a sister who wants to bone you, two morons for brothers, and Elise, and strangers who claim to be your family, with one wanting to kill you, wouldn't you want to get out of there?

Personally, I thought that the only good Kamui was a nonexistent Kamui

[RedRob]

Personally, I thought that the only good Kamui was a nonexistent Kamui

Hmm, what about one that's been reclassed to corpse?

[saisymbolic]

Hmm, what about one that's been reclassed to corpse?

Is this a meme now?

[RedRob]

Is this a meme now?

If it isn't, I'll bite my own foot off.

And on that note, I think I derailed this thread enough. Let's get back to why we think Corrin is, or isn't stupid.

[NekoKnight]

The biggest problem isn't how Corrin acts, as so much as how the story responds to it and details it. If Corrin face logical consequences for his actions, or they give a better reason for his stupidity, like Garon abused them into submission, or was a kind ruler doing horrible things for the good of his people, or held someone dear to the sibilings as hostages, then there wouldn't be much as a problem. Except from dumbasses who believe characters like shinji ikari suck just because they angst about their problems like regular people do.

I agree with the rest of your post but I'm going to question this part. What makes a likable character is going to get a bit subjective and someone's circumstances aren't always going to be enough to redeem them. Take Takumi, for example. He has perfectly legitimate grievances but players who've only played Conquest often dislike him. Why? Part of it is the narrative framing him as wrong but another is his god damn persistence. Even as someone who felt Takumi was one of the most human characters in Fates, playing through Conquest I got tired of Takumi showing up saying "Die die die, fuck you fuck you fuck you" no matter how often I slapped his shit and sent him packing. Some people aren't going to like Shinji either just because he's so insufferably whiny.

So no, I don't think Kamui being abused into submissiveness (an argument could be made for the Nohrian siblings behaving like scared, abused children but I don't like them more for it) would make him more appealing. It would make me want to play a different game. There is a reason we play influential people instead of the common soldier. Because no one wants to follow the life of someone who can't change anything.

Is this a meme now?

It's happening.

Edited March 5, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Katryn]

If it isn't, I'll bite my own foot off.

And on that note, I think I derailed this thread enough. Let's get back to why we think Corrin is, or isn't stupid.

Yes, I think that's become a running thing. I know my brother did it to Peri at any rate. :) That said, my thoughts on the actual thread topic are up a few posts. :) I'd rather not need to type all that again. :)

[BruceLee]

Plus, again siding with Hoshido has Corrin killing people to get to Garon while the Nohr version is trying to end things more peacefully and hates killing anyone. A good example of this is when you fight either Xander or Ryoma. When you fight Xander Corrin is pretty much like "I don't wanna fight you, but alright if you're gonna be in the way.." while when you fight Ryoma they're incredibly hesitant and do not want to fight them at all and are trying to explain to him about Hinoka.

I'm surprised people don't mention this more and dislike the more idealistic version of Corrin while ignoring the actions of the more cynical one because he has more spine in Birthright, but isn't going out of his way to spare Nohrians aside from the siblings if possible.

And then, Corrin actually KILLS Xander in Birthright (he wanted to die anyways right after Elise was killed) while Ryoma has to kill himself because Corrin can't go through with it and Garon, Iago and Hans were all there to kill him if he didn't do it.

Yeah, let's totally ignore the scenario's in which you fight Xander and Ryoma.

Xander is getting in your way of trying to kill the evil bad guy who wants to destroy the world, and he's being completely irrational.

Ryoma is defending his country which you've laid destruction upon for no good reason(and as far as he knows you killed his sister while you were at it).

Not really a fair comparison is it?

So, I've finally had a chance to play part of Conquest and part of Birthright. I'm up to the start of Chapter 13 and Chapter 21 respectively. Here are my thoughts:

-- Conquest Corrin's naivete and inability / unwillingness to really take a stand is resulting further and further in frustration and questioning why I'm playing the game. As others have said, this should -never- get to the point it has here, and from what I understand (since I really don't care about spoilers) it only gets worse.

-- The "works for the evil side but never kills anyone' shtick does not pardon Nohrrin from being a completely hopeless moron.

-- I'm still questing where, how and why the character had the moral standards he or she displayed in Chapter 2. I guess that's what happens when you leave raising your kidnapped son / daughter to others rather than actively molding them in your image.

-- The sequence between Garon and Iago during chapter 12 made me want to head-desk. Garon tells Iago he doesn't need him to understand, only to obey. He then goes ahead and tells Iago (i.e. us) the 'reasons' anyway despite his comment. This is only further irritating because the reasons are not actually made clear to the player. You *can* make something clear to a player or reader that the heroic character does not know about. If done well, this can be useful and can build tension and connection with the audience. As this interlude stands, however, it was a waste of time.

It does make me question how involved Iago was in Elise's illness and whether he caused it. He seems to have some pretty funky powers so I wouldn't want to rule it out. In fact, if I was behind this story doing that would've come back to bite him and (considering how popular Elise is) would have made killing the creep even more delicious down the road.

-- We never do get a properly established motivation about why Iago is initially trying to kill Corrin to begin with. That said, I find it amusing that Iago is more hesitant / questioning of Garon wanting to make Corrin suffer when Iago has wanted their head from the beginning.

-- You know you did it wrong when the character I'm still empathizing with the most heavily is Takumi, especially when this version of Takumi was initially why I thought I'd hate him. Of course, it could be the 'your first path becomes your favorite' theory being proven true for yet another poster here at SF.

If my theory about Takumi comes true--that Iago is behind his eventual issues and was able to do this because of the hatred / rage / w/e Takumi already held, I feel he is potentially the most tragic character in the game and the most biting consequence of the choice Corrin has to make. Even when I fought him in Chapter 10 he was complaining of head pain by the end--and if I remember right that was a symptom of his possession when we saved him from that in Birthright.

-- A game can make you feel good. A game can make you BE bad. But a choice you make should not tell you that you feel bad. (Not to be confused with *making* you, the gamer, feel remorse). There's nothing wrong with showing Corrin getting worn down, but there are lines Corrin has--along with one Ryoma had last night that, again, made me wanna head-desk. I think it went something like "My retainers are strong, too. And they fight for a far more noble cause." <--dude, give it a rest! We get it already.

-- I also find it very odd that you are playing the 'bad' side and the 'villains' of the 'bad side' are out to get you. Even in a Saturday morning cartoon or an old school video game the villains generally only threaten their lackies with punishment when they fail a mission. They generally don't set them up to fail or deliberately put things in their way. (In most cases they don't need to--such characters tend to be archetypically incompetent to begin with.)

I'm trying to give Conquest as fair a chance as I can, but playing it and Birthright close together the reality of how the two games are effecting *me* as a player is unavoidable. And this is coming from someone who spent a lot of time playing a Sith in Star Wars: The Old Republic. I've got no issues with playing a character doing bad things. I do have issues playing a character who has a chronic knack for failure which I know is--in no satisfying way--going to improve.

IN short: I thought Conquest was going to be a lot of things when I was getting ready to play it. What I got didn't really match up with any of them. Pity.

Ah you finally got around to Conquest. That was a great read, am looking forward to your analysis on the rest of the story(yes it does get much worse unfortunately).

Edited March 5, 2016 by BruceLee

[semolinaro]

I'm in the process of laying the groundwork for a TOTAL Conquest fanfic rewrite. Character goals are rewritten, plot mcguffins removed (or at least explained) and basically an overhaul of the main ideas. Probably won't write it until finishing revelation though.

It's bothering me that a game that delivers gorgeous presentation and near flawless gameplay has me reluctant to pick it up because I can't get motivated to complete maps as a spineless killer of innocents. It's downright upsetting that I spent an entire year of agonizingly waiting to get this outcome. Part of me feels like IS thinks they're invincible after Awakening's success but they better be damn careful because FE was almost dead before that game, and I wouldn't provoke new fans by giving them two poorly explained, unfinished plots to then have the 'full story' locked behind a paywall. That's one way to kill FE's renaissance era with a snap of a finger. Don't take your fame for granted, IS.

[saisymbolic]

I'm in the process of laying the groundwork for a TOTAL Conquest fanfic rewrite. Character goals are rewritten, plot mcguffins removed (or at least explained) and basically an overhaul of the main ideas. Probably won't write it until finishing revelation though.

It's bothering me that a game that delivers gorgeous presentation and near flawless gameplay has me reluctant to pick it up because I can't get motivated to complete maps as a spineless killer of innocents. It's downright upsetting that I spent an entire year of agonizingly waiting to get this outcome. Part of me feels like IS thinks they're invincible after Awakening's success but they better be damn careful because FE was almost dead before that game, and I wouldn't provoke new fans by giving them two poorly explained, unfinished plots to then have the 'full story' locked behind a paywall. That's one way to kill FE's renaissance era with a snap of a finger. Don't take your fame for granted, IS.

I'm severely hoping that IS has learned their lesson with this game and will take time and effort with the story of the next game. It's bad that Fates has been out but I'm already waiting with bated breath for the next game in the series.

[semolinaro]

I'm severely hoping that IS has learned their lesson with this game and will take time and effort with the story of the next game. It's bad that Fates has been out but I'm already waiting with bated breath for the next game in the series.

Yes I feel exactly the same! And that's soo upsetting! I still remember seeing that reveal trailer, I was in my senior year in high school and when I got home from a long day I was treated to that epic opening cutscene and 'Lost in Thoughts all Alone' blaring loudly and... AHH IT LOOKED SO EPIC! Fates was an agonizing wait, and now that it's here it hasn't even met nearly HALF of my expectations and it makes me want to go back and replay Awakening or Path of Radiance, because the story is just that bad. Gameplay can only get you so far in a game that is very story driven. The gameplay is a reflection of your actions and honestly I can't enjoy myself when completing the maps is absolute nonsense for the plot. And to add insult to injury, I know for a fact that IS made the plots vague and Azura a mysterious airhead so you would be persuaded into buying Revelations. I hate that greedy, gimmicky shit, it's nothing but a kick to the groin to the fans. I expected better of you, IS.

Edited March 5, 2016 by semolinaro

[Abysswalker25]

Yeah, let's totally ignore the scenario's in which you fight Xander and Ryoma.

Xander is getting in your way of trying to kill the evil bad guy who wants to destroy the world, and he's being completely irrational.

Ryoma is defending his country which you've laid destruction upon for no good reason(and as far as he knows you killed his sister while you were at it).

Not really a fair comparison is it?

Ah you finally got around to Conquest. That was a great read, am looking forward to your analysis on the rest of the story(yes it does get much worse unfortunately).

How is Xander being irrational? Hes defending his country, same as Ryoma. Hes the PRINCE of Nohr. It is his duty to fight, as irrational as that might sound to you despite Garon being crazy because you're literally at the heart of the Kingdom by the point you fight him.

[NekoKnight]

How is Xander being irrational? Hes defending his country, same as Ryoma. Hes the PRINCE of Nohr. It is his duty to fight, as irrational as that might sound to you despite Garon being crazy because you're literally at the heart of the Kingdom by the point you fight him.

Because his father is insane and evil, and Elise just

died, and made her final request for him to stop fighting?

They're trying to dispose of Garon, not take over Nohr. It's something he should have done much earlier.

[Abysswalker25]

Because his father is insane and evil, and Elise just

died, and made her final request for him to stop fighting?

They're trying to dispose of Garon, not take over Nohr. It's something he should have done much earlier.

Again, despite his father being crazy he has no choice but to fight for his country because it is required of him. It doesn't matter if they're trying to dipose Garon at that point, you're still a hostile army at the capital of his country.

And after Elise dies, I think Xander couldn't live with the guilt and just let you kill him. Because he doesn't do jack against Corrin at that point, when beforehand he was completely wrecking them.

This is even an archtype in FE. The Camus.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Abysswalker25

[semolinaro]

Again, despite his father being crazy he has no choice but to fight for his country because it is required of him. It doesn't matter if they're trying to dipose Garon at that point, you're still a hostile army at the capital of his country.

And after Elise dies, I think Xander couldn't live with the guilt and just let you kill him. Because he doesn't do jack against Corrin at that point, when beforehand he was completely wrecking them.

This is even an archtype in FE. The Camus.

But Xander would have been that much more of an interesting character if he did what he wasn't 'supposed' to do. If he was morally conflicted about doing the right thing, or continuing down his oath of obedience under his father for his country. Having him falter would be growth for his character, which is something he is desperately needing. Poor guy needs to be saved from his writing.

[Katryn]

Yes, I agree with the others. Xander's inability to honor Elise both weakens his character / wastes a potential for growth, redemption and owning up to what happened, *and* (the real kicker) it makes what she did end up being totally in vain. Instead of saving them both, it only reversed the outcome.

[semolinaro]

To add to that, people defending Xander by saying he wanted to fight the avatar after Elise's death because he couldn't live with the guilt and wanted to die is weak. If you can't live with yourself after what you just did then you end your life yourself, don't dishonor your sister's last wish who died at YOUR hands just because you're disgusted with yourself. It's a cowardly thing to do. It could have been a turning point for his character where he realized he was fighting for an ill cause that destroyed his family, but he's still stuck in his stubborn ways. Characters that are written to refuse change are the worst kind.

Oh how I really wanted to like you Xander. The formula's there, but it's been botched.

Edited March 5, 2016 by semolinaro