So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[Water Mage]

You're not the only one, I got the same feeling just from their interactions with Corrin in the pre-route split chapters. Camilla is the worst of the three (Xander, Camilla and Elise), but all three definitely have vibes of condescending to Corrin and talking down to them. It's part of what put me off of the Nohr siblings in the first place, honestly.

I was comparing the interaction Corrin has with the nohrian sibilings in Conquest and Corrin's interactions with the hoshidan sibilings.

It's just so different...

Take Xander and Ryoma for example.

Xander in Conquest, as I said before, only say things like "There's no justice in the world" or "I don't like Garon's actions either bit just grin and bear it"

Where Ryoma actually explains things to Corrin, and makes an effort to teach things to him/her.

Birthright Chapter 15 and Birthright Chapter 17 are two good examples of this.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Water Mage

[Thane]

Sure, maybe I'm being too rude. But... meh.

Just because The Avatar has a lot of traits of a Mary Sue compared to others, doesn't mean it invalidates the argument that everyone else is, so don't use that as a stick to beat the Avatar with if you aren't going to beat everyone else with it. Pick one, either leave the stick alone, or hit everyone with it.

There is no "maybe" here, and if you realize you went a bit overboard, then I'd suggest apologizing instead of immaturely brush it aside.

I don't understand your argument at all. Because other Fire Emblem protagonists have Mary Sue traits, I have to address that before discussing Corrin...in a thread dedicated to discussing Corrin?

[Fallaner]

There is no "maybe" here, and if you realize you went a bit overboard, then I'd suggest apologizing instead of immaturely brush it aside.

I don't understand your argument at all. Because other Fire Emblem protagonists have Mary Sue traits, I have to address that before discussing Corrin...in a thread dedicated to discussing Corrin?

You certainly don't have to address it here. However, I should be able to go out and find you addressing everyone else being Mary Sues.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that I will NOT find you criticizing any other protagonist for being a Mary Sue.

Otherwise, that is quite hypocritical and merely serves to make it look like you simply don't like this particular character for no legitimate reason, when you are using complaints that apply to other characters you do not have a problem with.

Personally, I'm fine with Mary Sues! It's why I'm not out criticizing characters for being them.

In regards to my behavior, NekoKnight, I apologize.

I was in a bit of a bad mood (still am, but not as much), and ended up taking it out on you. I sincerely do apologize for that, and hope you can forgive me for my hostility and rudeness.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Fallaner

[Thane]

You certainly don't have to address it here. However, I should be able to go out and find you addressing everyone else being Mary Sues.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that I will NOT find you criticizing any other protagonist for being a Mary Sue.

Otherwise, that is quite hypocritical and merely serves to make it look like you simply don't like this particular character for no legitimate reason, when you are using complaints that apply to other characters you do not have a problem with.

Sure. I often talk about my dislike for Ike's inexplicable popularity (in-game), I've called Athena Cykes from Ace Attorney 5 dangerously close to a Mary Sue many times even on this forum I believe, and I acknowledged player worshipping to be a big problem in Persona 4 AND talked about a Mary Sue there as well, and that's one of my favorite games of all time - in that thread though I merely mention that it's a problem but I don't expand upon it much given that the first post was getting way too large and was meant to be more positive anyway ( http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=60418&hl=persona ). Other than that, several people here could probably vouch for me being harsh towards other Fire Emblem games, Blazing Sword and its ragtag bunch of misfits for protagonists in particular. However, all of that is utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but since you seem so adamant to find anything wrong with me as a poster rather than my posts themselves, I figured I might as well give ample proof that I'm not the biased person you seem to think I am.

[Kirokan]

This thread is moving way too quickly to really write any meaningful comment. xD I am glad to see people are on both sides of the argument, and I can see most of the points here. It was a little mean to call out Thane at the start there, but glad that resolved fast. (EDIT: Or...not?)

Regarding Revelation: (Someone mentioned it earlier): It is usually a favored path in both moderate gameplay, pairing units, and story result because it is built to reveal everything, as the name implies, but that leaves much to be desired in the other two paths, rather than leaving one with any satisfaction. I recall this was a major complaint that the "definitive" path was locked behind a paywall, basically. I still have slightly ill feelings about it, and am nearly done with Revelation here...

Regarding Corrin in Conquest: For the people wondering if localization would "fix" his character back when it was just the JP version, after playing Conquest, the story and characterization is 95%+ accurate, for better or worse. I am not sure why people were hoping for localization to do much about that, after all they do not write the game. A few minor changes were made, though, some that change his character ever slightly, for anyone interested, with moments such as this one in Chapter 26 (spoilers, obviously).

Small tweaks like that can go a long way, but I do not think they manage to really address all the issues people have above without altering the entire story. It comes down to the source writing in the end, as others have pointed out. : )

Thinking about it this is the only site I've been on that has criticized Nohr's story. Especially constructively.

A dedicated Fire Emblem site with fans both old and new. There may be some moments that don't reflect the community in the best light, but there are great people who can manage to discuss things in a mature manner. : )

Alright, let me chime in with my two cents on why I chose Conquest, to hopefully shed some light on why others did.

I chose Conquest because of 2 reasons. The first being family obviously. The second, is the main reason though. Redemption. I saw Conquest, and what it was advertised to be, and saw a story about redemption. Conquest isnt supposed to be about siding with the kingdom because you think its a good faction. It is siding with Nohr because there is a story about a kingdom trying to break away from its dark history, and it needs someone to lead them on the right path. That is why I chose Nohr. Because I thought I was going to get a story about good triumphing over evil and redemption for a kingdom and a group of people. Did it turn out that way in the end? In a very convoluted, badly written way, yes it did. I can completely understand people criticizing the story for its plot holes, inconsistencies, and rushed writings, but I do not like seeing everyone completely trash another choice in this game because they don't understand the reasoning for the choice. Not once do I ever see anyone talk about the true reason to side with Nohr. Everyone loves to talk about just how evil the kingdom is, how horrible the royals are, and how it is stupid to choose Nohr, but I never see anyone mention the fact that it is supposed to be evil, because if it wasn't, what is there to change? How are you supposed to have a story of redemption without the evil? Did it ever cross any of your minds that Nohr was intended to be the more "evil" choice of the two because you are trying to change it? Sure, the story did not in any way do a good job of writing that story, and could of done a far better way of writing that story. Look at all the characters, and their backstories in Nohr and for most of them you will see a reoccurring theme. They all have something in their past, and their stories are about overcoming that and changing as a person, or at least that is what was intended. Unfortunately IS did a bad job of writing that too, but that is what was intended for sure. So please, if you are going to pick something apart in Nohr, pick apart the failed attempt at writing a redemption/revolution story for the kingdom, but do not trash the concept behind the choice and say there is no reason to do so, because even though it is a horribly written way to get there, its still there.

Edit: Just realized after writing this that I am probably about to start a shit storm, but oh well.

I was unaware people were trashing the choice itself, I mostly saw complaints on how Kamui goes about handling things and the path falling short of the promises about the deeper/more complex story and such. xD

Except in their Iwata Asks interview, Kibayashi confirmed that he was going for a story where both sides would be morally grey; the "evil" faction wouldn't actually be as evil as they first appeared, and the "good" faction wouldn't be as good as they first appeared. How much of this was excised from the script by the IS writing team is unknown, but the point is, they promised it and we didn't get it.

This was a point too, as Hoshido really has few flaws aside from a bit of political meddling and Nohr hating... the localization even got rid of the Kitsune having mischievous undertones to them. xD

I absolutely can't wait for revelations as I really hope it ties things together once and for all. You seem to be a big fan of that path. How is it superior to the other paths? I don't mind spoilers of you wanna share!

It will certainly tie things together, and it is certainly a "superior" path ...which is rather unfortunate as it leaves the other two a little in the dust. : \

True, that part was strange and didn't really make a whole lot of sense. As I said there were definitely some bad parts in Conquest and it wasn't the strongest story of the three but I just didn't see why so many were focusing on Corrin/Cheve or why people think it's terrible. I just feel it gets an unnecessary amount of hate/criticism, not that I view criticism as a bad thing by any means it's just that some of it feels unjustified. But going back to the whole Azura scene I guess even if she had shown it off to your Nohrian siblings (who weren't there at the time) along with you there's no guarantee that they would've all believed you, unless you convinced them to follow you into the other world then maybe. But even if they were to believe you what then? They would still be in the middle of a war, confronting Garon at that point would put Nohr at a huge risk from an attack from Hoshido and even after taking over Nohr, Hoshido would still have to be dealt with in some form or another. It's doubtful that they all would just roll over and be cool with ending the war right then and there, your Hoshidan siblings might agree but the tension between the people of Nohr and the people of Hoshido would still be there and would still be strong (which isn't to say it isn't there/strong in Revelations but you slowly work through that tension throughout the story as both sides work together to fight the same force). This is my reasoning as to how one might explain the reason behind this scene anyway.

In all honesty though both Conquest and Birthright are fairly pointless except for enhancing the experience of Revelations and thus the experience of Fates as a whole as Revelations proves that the war between the two countries could've been prevented through the actions of Corrin and Azura simply revealing the truth to the rest of the world more or less from the get go. And thus why it is pretty much the canon route and the other two are simply side routes meant to be different experiences with elements that tie into the canon story.

I like the last paragraph here. When thought about that way (going through the other two paths and then Revelations), it does make sense to see the "what if" on this and that path and then see how it resolves. But, I just wish it was done in less of a way that may "cheapen" the other two paths for people, if that makes sense.

Sure. I often talk about my dislike for Ike's inexplicable popularity (in-game), I've called Athena Cykes from Ace Attorney 5 dangerously close to a Mary Sue many times even on this forum I believe, and I acknowledged player worshipping to be a big problem in Persona 4 AND talked about a Mary Sue there as well, and that's one of my favorite games of all time - in that thread though I merely mention that it's a problem but I don't expand upon it much given that the first post was getting way too large and was meant to be more positive anyway ( http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=60418&hl=persona ). Other than that, several people here could probably vouch for me being harsh towards other Fire Emblem games, Blazing Sword and its ragtag bunch of misfits for protagonists in particular. However, all of that is utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but since you seem so adamant to find anything wrong with me as a poster rather than my posts themselves, I figured I might as well give ample proof that I'm not the biased person you seem to think I am.

I can vouch for Thane and Blazing Sword among others, yes. : ( (But still done in ways that make sense rather than illogically!)

Edited March 5, 2016 by Kirokan

[Fallaner]

Sure. I often talk about my dislike for Ike's inexplicable popularity (in-game), I've called Athena Cykes from Ace Attorney 5 dangerously close to a Mary Sue many times even on this forum I believe, and I acknowledged player worshipping to be a big problem in Persona 4 AND talked about a Mary Sue there as well, and that's one of my favorite games of all time - in that thread though I merely mention that it's a problem but I don't expand upon it much given that the first post was getting way too large and was meant to be more positive anyway ( http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=60418&hl=persona ). Other than that, several people here could probably vouch for me being harsh towards other Fire Emblem games, Blazing Sword and its ragtag bunch of misfits for protagonists in particular. However, all of that is utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but since you seem so adamant to find anything wrong with me as a poster rather than my posts themselves, I figured I might as well give ample proof that I'm not the biased person you seem to think I am.

My apologies then, I quite clearly had the wrong idea given I hadn't seen any of that.

I do find problems with your posts. It's why I've argued against usage of Mary Sue as a reason that a character is bad. That's all. I've at least tried to keep any problems with you to a minimum, if I came across otherwise, I apologize.

[NekoKnight]

In regards to my behavior, NekoKnight, I apologize.

I was in a bit of a bad mood (still am, but not as much), and ended up taking it out on you. I sincerely do apologize for that, and hope you can forgive me for my hostility and rudeness.

Concerning other protagonists as Mary Sues, the only ones who really stood out to me were Micaiah (more a matter of special traits, the plot actually calls her out on her actions) and Ike (so much adoration that not even Shinon was enough to balance it out). If you think there are comparable protagonists to Kamui, I'm all ears.

[Thane]

I can vouch for Thane and Blazing Sword among others, yes. : ( (But still done in ways that make sense rather than illogically!)

I believe I'll call this a senpai seal of approval! You always show up when I need you, thanks man!

My apologies then, I quite clearly had the wrong idea given I hadn't seen any of that.

I do find problems with your posts. It's why I've argued against usage of Mary Sue as a reason that a character is bad. That's all. I've at least tried to keep any problems with you to a minimum, if I came across otherwise, I apologize.

No need to apologize, but here's the thing though, this is your second apology to me in two days, and you just apologized to NekoKnight. Whenever a debate gets heated, you seem to want to find a problem with the poster rather than the posts themselves, or at least that's how it comes across. I had to give you proof to not be called a hypocrite for not discussing other characters in a thread where they're irrelevant.

I'm not saying that to be mean, I just want discussions to be somewhat structured if there's a big debate going on.

[Fallaner]

I believe I'll call this a senpai seal of approval! You always show up when I need you, thanks man!

No need to apologize, but here's the thing though, this is your second apology to me in two days, and you just apologized to NekoKnight. Whenever a debate gets heated, you seem to want to find a problem with the poster rather than the posts themselves, or at least that's how it comes across. I had to give you proof to not be called a hypocrite for not discussing other characters in a thread where they're irrelevant.

I'm not saying that to be mean, I just want discussions to be somewhat structured if there's a big debate going on.

I'm certainly aware I may come across as trying to find a problem with a poster than than the post. I generally don't try to do that, and I don't see much of a method to minimize that problem. At least in my intent I try to find a problem with a post and point out what problem I have with it and try to provide my reasoning for it.

If someone can think of some method to try reducing the problem of me coming off as such without it being my intent, I'm all ears. I can certainly see if I can make it work for how I type things.

[Abysswalker25]

I uh, wasn't intending to spark a discussion on if Corrin was a mary sue or not, I was just bringing up the parallels between him and Micaiah. I mean, if I remember there was a thread asking that very question a while ago. Like, before the game came out.

It comes down to personal opinion, is what I think people agreed on. Correct me if I'm wrong?

[Fallaner]

I uh, wasn't intending to spark a discussion on if Corrin was a mary sue or not, I was just bringing up the parallels between him and Micaiah. I mean, if I remember there was a thread asking that very question a while ago. Like, before the game came out.

It comes down to personal opinion, is what I think people agreed on. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Nearly everything in life is down to personal opinion, that's kind of how things are. (It's how there are terrorists who think of themselves as good!)

Personally, I like Conquest's story and, while I think Conquest's Avatar can be an idiot in many respects and isn't as good as they COULD be, I still think they are a pretty good character and like them.

From what I see, my opinion is part of the minority, but I will stand by my opinion. Somethings I've changed my mind on regarding some aspects, but to me I still feel they are good to my subjective tastes.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Fallaner

[Thane]

I'm certainly aware I may come across as trying to find a problem with a poster than than the post. I generally don't try to do that, and I don't see much of a method to minimize that problem. At least in my intent I try to find a problem with a post and point out what problem I have with it and try to provide my reasoning for it.

If someone can think of some method to try reducing the problem of me coming off as such without it being my intent, I'm all ears. I can certainly see if I can make it work for how I type things.

I'm currently replaying Conquest; do you know how I handle the horrible writing? Well, I've got several tricks: listening to the One Punch Man soundtrack, imagining I'm playing the first Ace Attorney installment for the first time since it's my favorite game ever in terms of story, taking pauses and going to the gym to work out and then I imagine every character occasionally having moments of clarity in which they realize they're being fucking stupid.

So you know, lots of small things that help me calm down and not storm Serenes Forest looking for someone with a wrong different opinion.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Thane

[Fallaner]

I'm currently replaying Conquest; do you know how I handle the horrible writing? Well, I've got several tricks: listening to the One Punch Man soundtrack, imagining I'm playing the first Ace Attorney installment for the first time since it's my favorite game ever in terms of story, taking pauses and going to the gym to work out and then I imagine every character occasionally having moments of clarity in which they realize they're being fucking stupid.

So you know, lots of small things that help me calm down and not storm Serenes Forest looking for someone with a wrong different opinion.

...I'm not seeing how that is relevant to a problem regarding my wording for the most part? When I get mad I can calm down in plenty of ways, that really wasn't the problem...

My problem I have is people inferring the wrong thing from what I say, and thinking i'm trying to do a personal attack, when I am not.

[Thane]

...I'm not seeing how that is relevant to a problem regarding my wording for the most part? When I get mad I can calm down in plenty of ways, that really wasn't the problem...

My problem I have is people inferring the wrong thing from what I say, and thinking i'm trying to do a personal attack, when I am not.

I was just having a bit of a laugh buddy. As for help with your wording, I don't know if t's possible to give any concrete advice other than suggesting you should stop calling people hypocrites, whiners, saying you're confident you know what other members have talked about when you don't, etc.

But I believe we've derailed this thread too much already. Let's go back to talking about Corn and why they suck!

[Abysswalker25]

Well for those who think the story is dumb, you could always make Corrin's flaw "Dull" and blame his less smart moments on that.

At least they are the best looking lord. BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE.

[Thane]

Well for those who think the story is dumb, you could always make Corrin's flaw "Dull" and blame his less smart moments on that.

At least they are the best looking lord. BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE.

Pretty sure parts of the brain loosened when their spine was ripped out and replaced with a wet noodle.

Wait, really? I know this is super subjective but I think this is the first time I've heard someone praising Corrin's looks; are you referring to the female or male version? I can't stand the male one.

[NekoKnight]

Well for those who think the story is dumb, you could always make Corrin's flaw "Dull" and blame his less smart moments on that.

At least they are the best looking lord. BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE.

Shucks, I wanted to make a magic Kamui for Conquest but "Dull" is their canon flaw.

How about "Excitable" (-res) as a flaw?

Kamui: Ouch, that fireball hurt.

Marx: Have you tried being less genki?

Edited March 5, 2016 by NekoKnight

[maybe]

Well for those who think the story is dumb, you could always make Corrin's flaw "Dull" and blame his less smart moments on that.

At least they are the best looking lord. BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE.

really? i thought male corrin looked weird and ugly the moment I saw his in-game portrait

female looks okay I guess

besides, the real best looking lord is obviously alm

Edited March 5, 2016 by maybe

[Loki Laufeyson]

Pretty sure parts of the brain loosened when their spine was ripped out and replaced with a wet noodle.

Wait, really? I know this is super subjective but I think this is the first time I've heard someone praising Corrin's looks; are you referring to the female or male version? I can't stand the male one.

I dunno, my Male MU is pretty smoldering with his snide look and face scar and long black hair. /shrug I like how Corn can be really pretty, or horrendous looking depending on the player's choices.

[semolinaro]

Wow, this conversation has escalated to new and greater heights! Seems lots of people had a lot to say about this topic, which is nice.

Another wasted potential option that could have fleshed out Corrin's choice to side with Nohr is actually giving Nohr sympathetic moments. Instead of a lust for invading Hoshido just because they can, have the emphasis of Nohr's awful agricultural conditions that leave the people starving and killing each other for scraps, leaving them no choice but to go to war with Hoshido who, in turn, refused to share their bounty when there was plenty to go around. Paints the choice as more grey, and Corrin would have less of a problem ruthlessly conquering Hoshido and not always whining about it because he would have a REASON. The country he grew up in and was always proud of is going through some dark times yet Hoshido refuses to help. Many rulers have done this in history to sustain their kingdom. But Garon has no justification for invading Hoshido other than to display dominance, and Corrin follows even though he hates to do so. If he had valid reasons like trying to keep his subjects alive, Corrin following his orders would make much more sense, because it would be for the greater good of Nohr's people even if it meant that Hoshidan lives would be sacrificed.

[Abysswalker25]

Pretty sure parts of the brain loosened when their spine was ripped out and replaced with a wet noodle.

Wait, really? I know this is super subjective but I think this is the first time I've heard someone praising Corrin's looks; are you referring to the female or male version? I can't stand the male one.

Female version, though both are good in my opinion. Both of them look very elegant to me. And as Smash Bros shows, they have dancer-like movements and the occasional feral/wild stance to get the point across that they aren't entirely human.

I find it appealing.

Shucks, I wanted to make a magic Kamui for Conquest but "Dull" is their canon flaw.

How about "Excitable" (-res) as a flaw?

Kamui: Ouch, that fireball hurt.

Marx: Have you tried being less genki?

I made exciteable my flaw because I thought "who needs res?" and then the mages came..

Edited March 5, 2016 by Abysswalker25

[Fallaner]

Wait, really? I know this is super subjective but I think this is the first time I've heard someone praising Corrin's looks; are you referring to the female or male version? I can't stand the male one.

Personally, I find my Girl Avatar to be absolutely adorable.

Though, I based her look on an OC of mine. So... naturally i'd love how she looks.

[saisymbolic]

Wait, really? I know this is super subjective but I think this is the first time I've heard someone praising Corrin's looks; are you referring to the female or male version? I can't stand the male one.

I like making my male Kamui with the wavy, curly looking short hair because I can make him resemble Zhong Hui from Dynasty Warriors.

If only Kamui could have his personality in Conquest as well as his looks, it would have been awesome.

[Alazen]

Honestly, Corrin could have been a better character if they didn't try so hard to have him be the shining paragon even in Conquest where he sides with the black (or dark grey) kingdom. From what we have now, Corrin have been portrayed as more, loserish.

I'm talking playing up a contrast between this feral, monsterous, power she has and weakness of his character. Corrin would not just be a loser, but a loser with great power.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Alazen

[Wayward Alchemist]

I think part of the dislike is that Corrin is supposed to be a representation of the player, and the player doesn't appreciate being portrayed as an indecisive, weak, passive, melancholic character with little resolve. That said, when viewed as "just a main character" and not as an Everyman, he/she stands out from the crowd of FE protagonists, not being a pinnacle of justice, heroism and moral wholesomeness like literally every other Lord character, making him/her a bit more interesting in the regard of not necessarily being a "good person". Sure, Nohrrin is whiny, but at least we don't have a lead completely devoid of personality.