So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[warchiefwilliams]

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If not so much heresy, then another attempt to talk about Corrin's lack of a spine. My personal big gripe with Corrin is the segregation between their actions and what they say. Corrin says that they want to win this war to prevent needless death, but then doesn't raise a finger to stop Garon and co. from murdering left and right. The counter to this is that Corrin doesn't want to jeopardize their safety, but Corrin has previously been shown doing reckless things to save lives (saving Rinkah and Kaze right at the begining), making their inaction more than a bit hypocritical.

Excepted Kamui could have just gotten away if Camilla or Leo acted. They could have just killed Ganz, said he disobeyed some order and gotten away with it. He is just a soldier while they're the princes. They have the right of life and death on any of their subjects, if you look at how Nohr is organized.

EXACTLY. All Corrin had to do was come up with some BS that Ganz/Hans did something and had to be killed, like he started attacking Corrin's army in his bloodlust and had to be put down. Instead, Corrin just sits there and sulks while Scarlet gets the Blood Eagle treatment.

Conquest as a whole is filled with stupid decisions from characters who either a) should know better or b) are characterized as knowing better. All of the supports between the Nohrian royals suggests that Garon isn't the same man they knew as their father, yet are loyal to him to a fault

until they see the slime monster

[Azure Sen]

However, Ganz technically is speaking for the king in regards to orders.. Due to how Nohr is organized, Ganz CAN'T really be disobeying an order, he's giving them from the King, aside from that, he likely has his loyal forces who would quickly sell you out i'd imagine. They are most likely more loyal to him than you.

[spoiler=MAJOR CONQUEST SPOILERS]Given that the Nohr siblings do eventually kill him and Iago and all of their soldiers in Conquest 26 when Iago and Hanz try to kill Corrin with the excuse of "well the Hoshidan remnants clearly killed them and their enitre army" at the ready for after the battle, I'm pretty sure they could have done something similar with the Cheve rebels.

EDIT: I AM BAD AT SPOILER TAGS

Edited March 4, 2016 by AzureSen

[Ebony]

Hate it how? If you mean it's story, yes i very much dislike it. Hate is a strong word tho.

And i like Oboro, so i'll take that as a compliment.

Because you're harsh to it. (understandably imo but its like you almost say nothing positive about it - you seem to only talk about the negative parts aka the story)

Honestly i think Conquest is a victim of circumstance. It could have easily been great. It could have easily been something new for Fire Emblem.

And yet it wasn't and kinda shamed you into "gee, if only you had chosen any other option!"

Then you choose the other option and it leaves holes going "WELL GUESS YOU GOTTA BUY OUR DLC NOW HUH"

[Thane]

To add to what warchiefwilliams said for those who think Garon would retaliate against the siblings, there are two reasons why he most likely wouldn't:

1) He needs Corrin and highly values at least Xander's strength. Considering his lines in chapter 2, that most likely extends to Camilla and Leo as well.

2) He's extraordinarly slow on the uptake without Iago around, which is shown in the final chapters of Birthright.

[IceBrand]

Judging by what Thane and others said , most of the problems in Conquest could have beeen solved if Corrin was more confident in their goals, everyone not being scared shitless of Garon, and Azura not giving very little information. Correct?

[Pretty_Handsome]

It appears Corrin eventually kills a lot of Hoshido lives during Conquest. Does he admit to or feel guilty for robbing them of their lives and betraying his beliefs later on?

Edit: Doesn't Iago watch Corrin's everystep like he did in Birthright? If that was true wouldn't Iago catch Hans death very quickly?

No, Corrin instead just feels bad for themselves and their doubts. They don't mourn the many dead innocents. They don't even save Cheve or stop Scarlet's brutal slow death. Mostly due to how incompetent Corrin is.

The Nohrian siblings brush it off too when they have the authority to actually do something yet they don't.

Xander is even worse.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Pretty_Handsome

[Time the Crestfallen]

EXACTLY. All Corrin had to do was come up with some BS that Ganz/Hans did something and had to be killed, like he started attacking Corrin's army in his bloodlust and had to be put down. Instead, Corrin just sits there and sulks while Scarlet gets the Blood Eagle treatment.

Conquest as a whole is filled with stupid decisions from characters who either a) should know better or b) are characterized as knowing better. All of the supports between the Nohrian royals suggests that Garon isn't the same man they knew as their father, yet are loyal to him to a fault

until they see the slime monster

Corrin: Hey, do you think we can be peaceful about this and not be such mustache twirlers about this?

Hans:

[Water Mage]

The more I think about it, from a logical point of view, Corrin siding with Nohr it's actually an absolutely stupid decision, as there's not really reason to return.

Not even family love is a good reason to Nohr. If fact siding with Nohr makes Corrin seems like a weak person who doesn't have enough courage to do the right.

Think about it, is there any proof that Garon wouldn't execute Corrin the moment he/she returned? And Corrin knows that.

So why? Why would Corrin ever return to a place where he/she can be killed the moment he/she steps into Garon's throne room?

[Fallaner]

[spoiler=MAJOR CONQUEST SPOILERS]Given that the Nohr siblings do eventually kill him and Iago and all of their soldiers in Conquest 27 when Iago and Hanz try to kill Corrin with the excuse of "well the Hoshidan remnants clearly killed them and their enitre army" at the ready for after the battle, I'm pretty sure they could have done something similar with the Cheve rebels.

EDIT: I AM BAD AT SPOILER TAGS

HOWEVER, In that case you also kill all their loyal forces. Which is stated. You technically don't just kill Iago and Hanz, you kill all their loyal forces and basically....

You pretty much get rid of most of the bad elements in that event, there isn't anyone left to sell you out. And I have to agree with Thane, Garon seems rather... slow... in regards to what's going on. It takes him a bit to realize the Royal Family came into the Hoshido Throne room, after all. They probably could of all backed out and he wouldn't of noticed.

You are also discounting the possibility that Iago was watching Hanz to make sure you DIDN'T pull something like that, given how he seems to watch you constantly, and interrogates you when you leave and go somewhere he can't monitor you.

Judging by what Thane and others said , most of the problems in Conquest could have beeen solved if Corrin was more confident in their goals, everyone not being scared shitless of Garon, and Azura not giving very little information. Correct?

It does appear that way.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Fallaner

[Thane]

Judging by what Thane and others said , most of the problems in Conquest could have beeen solved if Corrin was more confident in their goals, everyone not being scared shitless of Garon, and Azura not giving very little information. Correct?

Well, that and the whole being objectively wrong and murdering innocents, but yeah, that'd be a good start.

[Fallaner]

Well, that and the whole being objectively wrong and murdering innocents, but yeah, that'd be a good start.

I will argue that siding with Nohr is not objectively wrong.

...Therefore, by definition it is no longer objective. It is a subjective point. Next argument please?

Oh yes... murdering innocents. You lack the authority to stop that, and it would happen either way. At least in Nohr you CAN direct it somewhat, as you don't have Nohr trying to go fighting through all of Hoshido, jsut a single fast path you clear first.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Fallaner

[Abysswalker25]

Dismissing people's mostly legitimate complaints about Conquest by calling them bitter really isn't helping your case.

People do have legitimate complaints, when did I say they didn't? I merely brought up the fact some people take it a biiiiit too far/too seriously. I just prefer to see some positivity rather than an endless stream of negativity.

[Thane]

I will argue that siding with Nohr is not objectively wrong.

...Therefore, by definition it is no longer objective, as Objective means nobody can disagree with it. Next argument please?

Oh yes... murdering innocents. You lack the authority to stop that, and it would happen either way. At least in Nohr you CAN direct it somewhat, as you don't have Nohr trying to go fighting through all of Hoshido, jsut a single fast path you clear first.

Oh hey, you CAN answer my arguments; if you feel up for it, there are a whole bunch on the last page. It's way too late here for me to continue, so consider it your homework, you whippersnapper.

[Fallaner]

People do have legitimate complaints, when did I say they didn't? I merely brought up the fact some people take it a biiiiit too far/too seriously. I just prefer to see some positivity rather than an endless stream of negativity.

Well I can help you there! I quite like Conquest's story. Which is why I'm here arguing (kinda) about it.

It honestly feels like there's WAY too much hate for it.

Oh hey, you CAN answer my arguments; if you feel up for it, there are a whole bunch on the last page. It's way too late here for me to continue, so consider it your homework, you whippersnapper.

Hey! I saw those, but due to rules about double posting I couldn't respond to them yet, as I posted something, it was a pain trying to splice it in, then gave up due to laziness you old man.

Try to understand that SOMETIMES you don't see new posts until after you've posted!

Don't simply assume that the lack of a current reply is because I'm shying away from them. I can certainly answer arguments, as I have already proven.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Fallaner

[Thane]

Well I can help you there! I quite like Conquest's story. Which is why I'm here arguing (kinda) about it.

It honestly feels like there's WAY too much hate for it.

Hey! I saw those, but due to rules about double posting I couldn't respond to them yet, as I posted something, it was a pain trying to splice it in, then gave up due to laziness you old man.

Try to understand that SOMETIMES you don't see new posts until after you've posted!

And yet you double post now anyway, and you admit your own laziness.

I swear, young people these days.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Thane

[Abvora]

Judging by what Thane and others said , most of the problems in Conquest could have beeen solved if Corrin was more confident in their goals, everyone not being scared shitless of Garon, and Azura not giving very little information. Correct?

Honestly, no.

What would really solve all of Conquest's problems was if Garon was not a flat, one-dimensional

slime monster

villain, or at least tried to pretend he had good goals. Then the Nohrian siblings, Corrin and Azura would actually have a good reason to follow him because they believe in his cause instead of just "DADDY'S NOT EVIL".

[Abysswalker25]

It honestly feels like there's WAY too much hate for it.

I agree.

Also, a good example is the fate of the Ice Tribe. Things aren't good for them since Corrin isn't there to smooth things over between them and Nohr if you side with Hoshido, while nothing bad happens to them if you side with Nohr. Corrin doesn't kill a single soldier, and he orders the people that are there to help him specifically not to kill anybody and has Elise tend to the injured after the fighting is done.

[Fallaner]

And yet you double post now anyway, and you admit your own laziness.

I swear, young people these days.

Oh shut up you old man. Go back to your rocking chair like all the old people!

That double post was accidental. I dislike doing it when possible (which is why I already reported it).

Just because i'm lazy doesn't mean I also can't be productive. I wouldn't have 3 dogs and a bajillion pet birds if I couldn't be productive and think things through.

[Water Mage]

I will argue that siding with Nohr is not objectively wrong.

I'm sorry, but it is.

There's no solid argument or reason for siding with Nohr other than family, which really isn't a solid argument, and it's actually rather twisted and somewhat submissive.

[Fallaner]

I'm sorry, but it is.

There's no solid argument or reason for siding with Nohr other than family, which really isn't a solid argument, and it's actually rather twisted and somewhat submissive.

Well. Have a solid argument:

Change through working within the system. One of the basic things in a modern nation. It's why Bernie Sanders can you know, get votes and Trump can be popular. It's a completely valid tactic, even in a medieval-type nation, ESPECIALLY if you are technically part of the royalty and thus are part of the line of succession.

Another valid argument: Leaving Nohr without a proper good center can result in a lot more damage. The Ice Tribe, for example. Leaving Nohr alone also results in more fighting than fighting FOR Nohr, as in that event you are capable of lessening the damage done in many areas, and being the person going first you are capable of minimizing the damage of clearing a path.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Fallaner

[warchiefwilliams]

Well I can help you there! I quite like Conquest's story. Which is why I'm here arguing (kinda) about it.

It honestly feels like there's WAY too much hate for it.

Part of the hate can be linked to the game's advertisements. "Reform a corrupt kingdom from within". When, in reality, we really didn't do all that much reforming

until a single violent purge at the end where the Nohrian Royals suddenly grow a spine and kill off Iago, Hans and all of those still loyal to Garon.

As a student of political history, that doesn't sound like reforming to me. What is still wrong with Nohr, based off of the many supports available, is still intact post-game. Hinoka says it herself; "I don't think I will ever be able to forgive the Nohrian Army." If she can't, then the rest of the Hoshidoan population certainly won't. Especially not after they have seen both their crown princes, their Queen, and countless other civies killed. There is no reform, only regime change. What was broken has only had a layer of duct tape and super glue applied and is now being called fixed.

Anyways, that's just my two cents, take it with a grain of salt.

Edited March 4, 2016 by warchiefwilliams

[Fallaner]

Part of the hate can be linked to the game's advertisements. "Reform a corrupt kingdom from within". When, in reality, we really didn't do all that much reforming

until a single violent purge at the end where the Nohrian Royals suddenly grow a spine and kill off Iago, Hans and all of those still loyal to Garon.

As a student of political history, that doesn't sound like reforming to me. What is still wrong with Nohr, based off of the many supports available, is still intact post-game. Hinoka says it herself; "I don't think I will ever be able to forgive the Nohrian Army." If she can't, then the rest of the Hoshidoan population certainly won't. Especially not after they have seen both their crown princes, their Queen, and countless other civies killed. There is no reform, only regime change.

Anyways, that's just my two cents, take it with a grain of salt.

I would actually agree with that. There really ISN'T a whole lot of reforming. More a lot of purging at the end.

Forgiveness doesn't come easily, nor quickly. It'd take a whole lot of time, and you could argue that Xander begins trying to change things, but it's a slow process and thus has not been totally successful so far.

[BruceLee]

The writers should have either made Nohr more grey so that an argument can be made for choosing them, or kept Nohr black and actually acknowledge that they're black(along with Kamui). Not have them be black and then still portray Kamui as a hero and excuse him for all of the shit he does after he chooses them.

Edited March 4, 2016 by BruceLee

[Azure Sen]

HOWEVER, In that case you also kill all their loyal forces. Which is stated. You technically don't just kill Iago and Hanz, you kill all their loyal forces and basically....

You pretty much get rid of most of the bad elements in that event, there isn't anyone left to sell you out. And I have to agree with Thane, Garon seems rather... slow... in regards to what's going on. It takes him a bit to realize the Royal Family came into the Hoshido Throne room, after all. They probably could of all backed out and he wouldn't of noticed.

You are also discounting the possibility that Iago was watching Hanz to make sure you DIDN'T pull something like that, given how he seems to watch you constantly, and interrogates you when you leave and go somewhere he can't monitor you.

[spoiler=I'LL DO IT RIGHT THIS TIME COACH, PLEASE DON'T BENCH ME]So...are we agreeing or disagreeing on this, I really can't tell at this point. But I would like to say that Iago would still be around, and Iago and Hans clearly symptoms of the real bad element's effects, not the actual problem itself (not that the characters themselves recognize this, but that's another discussion for hypothetical rewrites, perhaps).

Given how Iago is only omnipotent when the story needs him to be, this isn't actually a concern, I think.

People do have legitimate complaints, when did I say they didn't? I merely brought up the fact some people take it a biiiiit too far/too seriously. I just prefer to see some positivity rather than an endless stream of negativity.

My mistake, I didn't eloquently express what I meant to say. Devaluing anyone's argument like that, regardless of how many people it may or may not apply to within the group, is not helping your case. (It's a thing that's happened to me a lot, unfortunately.) And I can't speak for anyone else, but there are things I like about Conquest; they're just so overshadowed by the things I don't like (and the bad things are more commonly discussed, because it's often easier to talk about things you dislike rather than things you like) that it doesn't come up much.

Edited March 4, 2016 by AzureSen

[IceBrand]

The writers should have either made Nohr more grey so that an argument can be made for choosing them, or kept Nohr black and actually acknowledge that they're black(along with Kamui). Not have them be black and then still portray Kamui as a hero and excuse him for all of the shit he does after he chooses them.

Doesn't Corrin/Kamui know what they're doing is wrong? Does that still count as them being a hero? Are there some elements late on in the game that shows them in a negative light?