Rend Heaven the Best Offensive Proc?

[Pretty_Handsome]

It's not - it's because Hoshidan Unity isn't very good (Rightful King wasn't very good in Awakening, why would it be good now), and Quixotic's out-and-out laughable.

It is, working with Quixotic gives you a 25% increase. Quixotic also is a godsend for axe users.

I pity you for not understanding something so basic.

Maybe when you have a taste of Dragonfang and the such proccinng off nearly every attack you'll understand why everyone is stacking these two skills.

Rightful King wasn't good? You must have played a different game as the best Lucina and Morgan builds relied upon Rightful King.

The higher Proc rate is a much greater damage increase than boring faires for example.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Pretty_Handsome

[Shadow Mir]

It is, working with Quixotic gives you a 25% increase. Quixotic also is a godsend for axe users.

I pity you for not understanding something so basic.

Maybe when you have a taste of Dragonfang and the such proccinng off nearly every attack you'll understand why everyone is stacking these two skills.

Rightful King wasn't good? You must have played a different gane as the best Lucina and Morgan builds relied upon Rightful King.

The higher Proc rate is a much greater damage increase than boring faires fir example.

Yeah, never mind the fact that the enemy gets to benefit from Quixotic as well, which screams "dealbreaker" to me.

I don't know what builds you are talking about, because out of all the builds that I've seen recommended for Lucina and Morgan, Rightful King wasn't part of them - especially since Lucina would rather run other skills than RfK.

Really now? Because faires are more reliable and give more bang for their buck overall. RfK only really impacted one skill, which was useless overall because Dragonskin.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Emblem Blade]

Rightful King, the only user who can really put that into use in Awakening was Chrom and a Male Morgan who's mother had an asset of Skill and the father was Inigo. Lethality's skill proc is still ridiculously low when you could use Quitoxic for much more effective skills such as Aether or Rend Heaven which when combined with Vantage and Renewal allow you to stomp most enemies into the ground. You don't need to have an offensive trigger skill to kill someone, you can always ram a Counter/Magic Counter into an enemy without support and then have someone heal them. And since Dragonskin makes Lethality moot, you're better off using skills that can help bypass that damage reduction. Really, Lethality is a great skill...but it becomes absolutely worthless in PvE in the story once you near the endgame which is when you want it. Rend Heaven > Lethality for this thread is all I can say considering that it's best to not want a skill that has a lower proc rate (despite priority) compared to other skills that can do lots of damage while having a passive that benefits the enemy as well. I would say that Rend Heaven and Vengeance should be considered above the other offensive skills (Aether doesn't count since it's a DLC skill) since they'll be doing more damage throughout the game than Lethality could by the time you get characters 20/20 or near that spec area. Critical-hit Vengeance with the right set up can easily be tied with a critical-hit Rend Heaven for the strongest hitting skills in-game and it requires less work than to pull off than trying Lethality.

[Tribute]

Lethality has the best animation though

[Dwlr]

Depends what you're speaking about. If you're talking about max stats vs max stats the 1.5 x Skl% should make it the best, but in terms of actual use considering something like a General is highly unlikely to have max Magic it's probably not. If you can't switch between Magic and Physical it can add quite a bit of damage, but even against a General who has low Magic because of it's higher activation rate it will still be more reliable than Luna even if on activation a Mage using Luna assuming both activate would deal more additional damage (slightly)

That aside Ignis is still better than Luna IMO.

[Djing]

Overall Health to defense ratio is pretty low in this game. Lethality is pretty redundant as a result. I would only use it for My Castle trolling.

[Shadow Mir]

Rightful King, the only user who can really put that into use in Awakening was Chrom and a Male Morgan who's mother had an asset of Skill and the father was Inigo. Lethality's skill proc is still ridiculously low when you could use Quitoxic for much more effective skills such as Aether or Rend Heaven which when combined with Vantage and Renewal allow you to stomp most enemies into the ground. You don't need to have an offensive trigger skill to kill someone, you can always ram a Counter/Magic Counter into an enemy without support and then have someone heal them. And since Dragonskin makes Lethality moot, you're better off using skills that can help bypass that damage reduction. Really, Lethality is a great skill...but it becomes absolutely worthless in PvE in the story once you near the endgame which is when you want it. Rend Heaven > Lethality for this thread is all I can say considering that it's best to not want a skill that has a lower proc rate (despite priority) compared to other skills that can do lots of damage while having a passive that benefits the enemy as well. I would say that Rend Heaven and Vengeance should be considered above the other offensive skills (Aether doesn't count since it's a DLC skill) since they'll be doing more damage throughout the game than Lethality could by the time you get characters 20/20 or near that spec area. Critical-hit Vengeance with the right set up can easily be tied with a critical-hit Rend Heaven for the strongest hitting skills in-game and it requires less work than to pull off than trying Lethality.

As far as Morgan goes, I'm not sure he'd want to run Rightful King since... where would it go without taking the place of a better skill??? Also, as stated earlier, I'm not a fan of Quixotic because it's a massive double-edged sword - extra hit and skill activation chance is fine and all, but not when the enemy gets to benefit from it as well, maybe even more than the player.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Emblem Blade]

As far as Morgan goes, I'm not sure he'd want to run Rightful King since... where would it go without taking the place of a better skill??? Also, as stated earlier, I'm not a fan of Quixotic because it's a massive double-edged sword - extra hit and skill activation chance is fine and all, but not when the enemy gets to benefit from it as well, maybe even more than the player.

Quitoxic is ok if you or your ally if you have Nohrian Trust have Pavise and Aegis equipped since it helps minimize the chance of being killed. NPCs usually break the game rules...Quitoxic really wouldn't do you much good, just be a huge bane for opposing enemies (mostly in PvP). Rightful King normally hasn't been a favorite skill for me, only Chrom uses it on my save files so far.

[ckc22]

It's not - it's because Hoshidan Unity isn't very good (Rightful King wasn't very good in Awakening, why would it be good now), and Quixotic's out-and-out laughable.

Well to be fair, Hoshidan Unity is better than Rightful King simply because of skill stat caps.

[Shadow Mir]

Quitoxic is ok if you or your ally if you have Nohrian Trust have Pavise and Aegis equipped since it helps minimize the chance of being killed. NPCs usually break the game rules...Quitoxic really wouldn't do you much good, just be a huge bane for opposing enemies (mostly in PvP). Rightful King normally hasn't been a favorite skill for me, only Chrom uses it on my save files so far.

I guess Chrom could make use of RfK, yes. Anyways, while I shoulda mentioned it earlier, I'm not a fan of Vengeance either, since going around near dead for a damage boost just reeks of counter-intuitive, especially in this game where HP caps are varied, and lower, and its activation rate got noifed.

Well to be fair, Hoshidan Unity is better than Rightful King simply because of skill stat caps.

Well, that's true.

[Emblem Blade]

I guess Chrom could make use of RfK, yes. Anyways, while I shoulda mentioned it earlier, I'm not a fan of Vengeance either, since going around near dead for a damage boost just reeks of counter-intuitive, especially in this game where HP caps are varied, and lower, and its activation rate got noifed.

Well, that's true.

Vantage + Vengeance + Renewal + Killing Weapon = ? I got good outcomes with that combo and it only backfired once but that was due to a very bad mistake I made when I didn't take notes on every single enemy on the screen.

[Shadow Mir]

Vantage + Vengeance + Renewal + Killing Weapon = ? I got good outcomes with that combo and it only backfired once but that was due to a very bad mistake I made when I didn't take notes on every single enemy on the screen.

That worked well enough in Awakening where getting 100% Vengeance was possible, but in this game, where most of the stuff that could work well with Vengeance got noifed... It's safe to say that Vantage-Vengeance got gutted horribly.

[Emblem Blade]

That worked well enough in Awakening where getting 100% Vengeance was possible, but in this game, where most of the stuff that could work well with Vengeance got noifed... It's safe to say that Vantage-Vengeance got gutted horribly.

Vengeance didn't really get nerfed that bad, the stat limits on caps is what hurts most skills. Other than that Vengeance to me is a replacement for the lack of Aether (DLC locked) and Rend Heaven. I just try to look at the pros and cons of each offensive skill and if there are particular downsides to the skill that affect its' ability later on, I tend to turn it down. I also have to take enemy stats and skills into account.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Emblem Blade

[Shadow Mir]

Vengeance didn't really get nerfed that bad, the stat limits on caps is what hurts most skills. Other than that Vengeance to me is a replacement for the lack of Aether (DLC locked) and Rend Heaven. I just try to look at the pros and cons of each offensive skill and if there are particular downsides to the skill that affect its' ability later on, I tend to turn it down. I also have to take enemy stats and skills into account.

True, but I'd say Vengeance got hit the worst - Braves only work when the user initiates battle, dual strikes are limited to one half-damage hit, and 1-2 range got noifed. And I'm seeing crap about tomes having accuracy problems. All that is not helped by the fact that HP caps are varied in this game, and are lower than in Awakening (HP caps at anywhere from 45 to 70 depending on the class).

Edited March 13, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Emblem Blade]

True, but I'd say Vengeance got hit the worst - Braves only work when the user initiates battle, dual strikes are limited to one half-damage hit, and 1-2 range got noifed. And I'm seeing crap about tomes having accuracy problems. All that is not helped by the fact that HP caps are varied in this game, and are lower than in Awakening (HP caps at anywhere from 45 to 70 depending on the class).

Most of the very powerful tomes/scrolls have Hit Rates of 40-60% or have side-effects of halving damage or reducing certain stats of the wielder after they attack/counterattack just like other weapons that are powerful that aren't unique. Low Hit Rate can be overcome by high skill stats but then you lose out on the defense to compensate which just hurts against more veteran teams in PvP.

[Shadow Mir]

Most of the very powerful tomes/scrolls have Hit Rates of 40-60% or have side-effects of halving damage or reducing certain stats of the wielder after they attack/counterattack just like other weapons that are powerful that aren't unique. Low Hit Rate can be overcome by high skill stats but then you lose out on the defense to compensate which just hurts against more veteran teams in PvP.

Then if I'm to buy that Vengeance wasn't noifed... How the hell am I??? Because as is, it sounds like more risk for less payoff.

[Emblem Blade]

Then if I'm to buy that Vengeance wasn't noifed... How the hell am I??? Because as is, it sounds like more risk for less payoff.

That's what Vengeance is basically, high risk-high return. Then you need to avoid being killed after your attacker's turn ends since your HP is going to be low. I just can't buy (or use) Lethality since it requires far too much set-up to make it better than the likes of Aether (DLC) and Rend Heaven which are overall much better on an even basis and both don't really have a downside.

[Shadow Mir]

That's what Vengeance is basically, high risk-high return. Then you need to avoid being killed after your attacker's turn ends since your HP is going to be low. I just can't buy (or use) Lethality since it requires far too much set-up to make it better than the likes of Aether (DLC) and Rend Heaven which are overall much better on an even basis and both don't really have a downside.

True. But you're trying to argue that Vengeance didn't really get nerfed. The problem with that is the risk is higher (lower caps, activation rate decreased to 1.5), and the reward is lower (variable HP caps, and lower max damage potential). That accounts to a nerf, if you ask me!

That being said, I prefer Luna as far as procs go. And the concept of Vengeance is NOT something I'm willing to entertain in a series like this.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[chopstixguy]

I say every proc is situational and not really the best.

Luna has lower activation rate than Rend Heaven but at least guarantees you bonus damage since every unit has some stats in def and res.

Rend Heaven has higher activation rate than Luna but against certains units like Magic vs Berserker or Physical vs Sorcerer, it's useless.

So this is more on preference of the player, Either you want consistent activation or consistent bonus damage.

Lethality has extremely low activation rate 1/4 of your skill but (and I feel people forget this sometimes) bypass things like counter, magic counter, aegis, and pavise. It's a gimmicky skill but it does the job.

Sol is the same as Luna in activation rate and is pretty much meant for the tanky plug unit. it combos really well with certain characters and skills. (like Hinata and Counter)

Vengeance, same activation as RH. Combos with certain characters and skills. Risky but with certain back-up like high evasion or dual guard, It will come in clutch.
Astra half your skill, just does more damage and not much damage against high def or res units.

I was wrong, Aether is the best proc skill. Half your skill, heals and always guarantees you do more damage. Hail Ike.

Edited April 4, 2016 by chopstixguy

[Emperor Petitt]

I prefer Aether Still : \

[Emblem Blade]

I say every proc is situational and not really the best.

Luna has lower activation rate than Rend Heaven but at least guarantees you bonus damage since every unit has some stats in def and res.

Rend Heaven has higher activation rate than Luna but against certains units like Magic vs Berserker or Physical vs Sorcerer, it's useless.

So this is more on preference of the player, Either you want consistent activation or consistent bonus damage.

Lethality has extremely low activation rate 1/4 of your skill but (and I feel people forget this sometimes) bypass things like counter, magic counter, aegis, and pavise. It's a gimmicky skill but it does the job.

Sol is the same as Luna in activation rate and is pretty much meant for the tanky plug unit. it combos really well with certain characters and skills. (like Hinata and Counter)

Vengeance, same activation as RH. Combos with certain characters and skills. Risky but with certain back-up like high evasion or dual guard, It will come in clutch.

Astra half your skill, just does more damage and not much damage against high def or res units.

I was wrong, Aether is the best proc skill. Half your skill, heals and always guarantees you do more damage. Hail Ike.

Overall against any enemy in PvE (excluding bosses with Dragonskin/Divine Shield which halves all damage dealt from the following skills while negating Counter/Counter Magic and Lethality), each skill can work fine but some require more set-up than others to utilize with less trouble. With Brave Weapons, it comes down to how you operate.

*Note: Dragonskin and Divine Shield's ability to halve all damage takes place before skill damage occurs. When a skill that triggers offensive not recoil damage is triggered, Dragonskin/Divine Shield's other ability to halve the skill damage takes place. Bonus Damage is additional damage not extra damage that comes from weapons such as Beast Killer on Beasts/Mounts or Bows to Flyers.

*Note: All offensive trigger skills can miss and be dual-blocked. All offensive trigger skills can activate against adjacent and non-adjacent enemies as long as the user is using a weapon that they have in their own inventory, doesn't work for turrets, ballista or the likes of them. Bronze Weapons and Levin Swords, Bolt Axes, Bolt Naginatas and Shining Bows prevent offensive trigger skills from activating.

Aether (Skill% x 0.50): Sol and Luna combined. You most likely won't get any healing unless you can damage enemies sufficiently for the first strike. Luna helps with doing good with enemy tanks. Unlike in its' home games (Path of Radiance where it can critical-hit but not trigger at a distance [unless your name is Griel who can activate Aether at a distance with a throwing axe]) and Radiant Dawn (can't critical-hit or trigger at a distance), it has the the rulings that FE: Awakening gave it: It can critical-hit and trigger at a distance (Mire doesn't allow Trigger to work). One of the strongest offensive proc skills in the game in terms of versatility and damage.

Astra (Skill% x 0.50): Five consecutive strikes at half of the original damage per strike, basically, your original damage your opponent takes is 50% less per blow (damage doesn't decrease by 50% as each strike hits). Critical-Hits can take place (just like games up to and including PoR and those after RD) and it can range (unlike RD and possibly PoR), with critical-hits, you're doing x1.5 damage per strike so full critical-hit damage is x7.5 which is higher than x2.5 damage. Your damage is still very low against physical tanks unless your original damage before Astra is really high.

Dragon Fang (Skill% x 0.75): Adds half of your original attack to your current damage as bonus damage. Basically, this is a weaker version of Rend Heaven but it works off of your own stats and damage just like Ignis. Unlike Ignis, it only applies half of your original attack power and your current damage on the enemy instead of using your own Strength or Magic Stat. Critical-hits make it somewhat better, and give it a more unique battle sequence animation.

Ignis (Skill%): Adds half of your Strength or Magic Stat to your damage when using a melee or magical weapon as bonus damage. Half of your Strength if you use a magical weapon or half of your Magic if you use a melee weapon. Great for killing pesky mobs that are have balanced stats.

Lethality (Skill% x 0.25): If the user can inflict any battle damage (only works if the damage said unit inflicts isn't 0), this skill will OHKO any enemy it connects with. Yep, the description says it all. However, there are some weaknesses to this skill. First, the activation rate is absurdly low meaning that unless you devote an entire skill build to get it to work, you might get it off once or twice at least per entire battle. Second, Dragonskin and Divine Shield, both being enemy-only, allow endgame bosses to negate that skill entirely, meaning that you have a useless skill on you during those moments. Critical-Hits don't really do much since the victim is already dead if the skill connects and isn't blocked.

Luna (Skill%): Halves the Defense and Resistance of the enemy. This skill is similar to Rend Heaven in that it uses the opponent's stats against them. Rend Heaven uses one of the opponent's offensive stats (Strength/Magic) while this skill uses one of their defensive stats (Defense/Resistance) when using a melee or magical weapon. With Luna, using a melee weapon halves the enemy's Defense while a magical weapon (tomes/scrolls/stones) halve the enemy's Resistance. This allows the Luna to do just as much damage as Rend Heaven depending on the stats of the target. Unlike Rend Heaven which forces you to be picky on the type of opponent, Luna will guarantee bonus damage (even if it's a small amount) against any enemy.

Sol (Skill%): Recovers your HP by half of the damage you inflict to the enemy. Yep, it got nerfed ever since Radiant Dawn but it's still a good skill for survival if you have access to it. That said, if the damage you inflict is low, you recover less HP.

Rend Heaven (Skill% x 1.5): Adds half of your opponent's Strength (if you're using a melee weapon) or Magic (if you're using a magical weapon [tome/scroll/dragonstone(+)]) stat to your attack power as bonus damage. This skill is very powerful, even more insane with a critical-hit. However, unlike Luna and to a lesser extent, Aether, this works in a trade-off. To get the best bonus damage, you need to use the right offensive type of weapon to match the stat of the opponent that works off the weapon. You're not getting much by using a Sorcerer that has Rend Heaven and facing off against an enemy General, tough luck but most likely you'll get 2 additional points of damage.

Vengeance (Skill% x 1.5): Adds half of your current HP (out of your total HP) to your attack power as bonus damage. This skill was killer in Awakening since the stat cap (especially HP) was broken high (cap of 80-90 for player controlled units). However unlike Awakening (Skill% x 2) it's now Skill% x 1.5 which is still high. This is a high risk-high return since it uses your HP stat and your current HP to increase your damage output. In Fates, the max HP comes from Berserkers/Vanguards having about 65 HP cap normally (70 with HP+5 and 75 with HP+5 +HP Tonic). This means that the most bonus damage you can get under the right conditions (bonus damage using a Berserker or a Vanguard with this method caps off near 37 points). The wording is weird but it works somewhat like this: If your HP is at 50% or less, add half of your total HP to your attack power as bonus damage. If your HP is above 50%, your bonus damage boost is equal to the amount of HP you don't have out of your total HP. Critical-Hit + Vengeance can be one of the most devastating skill combos in the game but its also one of the easiest combos to get around: See Poison Strike + Seal/Dragonic Hex on 3-Tile Range users or if you try to use this combo on an enemy that has Vantage and is also at 50% HP or less. Be very wary that this skill can also result in said unit being KO'd if they fail to KO the enemy first and the enemy can defeat them in retaliation. It takes more than Vantage and Awakening (Skill) to survive with Vengeance.

[chopstixguy]

Thanks for elaborating Emblem blade :D

[Emblem Blade]

Thanks for elaborating Emblem blade :D

I'm not really one for praise at all, I'm not that kind of guy. When I get my information from Serenes Forest which has information that I need for units, I'm not the one who should be praised.

PvE: Any offensive trigger skill can become the best against just about anything not named endgame bosses.

PvP: Same as PvE but this time every offensive trigger skill is equal in terrorizing enemy players when properly set up.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Emblem Blade

[Roflolxp54]

I'm more of a fan of procstacking (using multiple attacking skills in the same set). It basically increases the chance that you'd activate something to near guarantees and reduces the chance that you'd activate nothing to near 0% chance depending on your Skill stat and the skills equipped. This can get ridiculous in a Nohrian Trust setup and wouldn't necessarily need Hoshidan Unity or Quixotic depending on the skills and Skill stat of the procstacking unit. For procstacking, I wouldn't recommend Sol (as it doesn't contribute to increasing damage output) and Vengeance (can be too risky and depends heavily on how damaged the lead unit is).

Example:

Corrin (lead)

-Nohrian Trust

-Dragon Fang

-Luna

-Ignis

-Rend Heaven

Another unit (rear unit)

-Astra

-Pavise/Dual Guarder

-Aegis/Dual Guarder

-Aether

-Lethality

[Emblem Blade]

I'm more of a fan of procstacking (using multiple attacking skills in the same set). It basically increases the chance that you'd activate something to near guarantees and reduces the chance that you'd activate nothing to near 0% chance depending on your Skill stat and the skills equipped. This can get ridiculous in a Nohrian Trust setup and wouldn't necessarily need Hoshidan Unity or Quixotic depending on the skills and Skill stat of the procstacking unit. For procstacking, I wouldn't recommend Sol (as it doesn't contribute to increasing damage output) and Vengeance (can be too risky and depends heavily on how damaged the lead unit is).

Example:

Corrin (lead)

-Nohrian Trust

-Dragon Fang

-Luna

-Ignis

-Rend Heaven

Another unit (rear unit)

-Astra

-Pavise/Dual Guarder

-Aegis/Dual Guarder

-Aether

-Lethality

Lethality's poor activation rate (Skill% x 0.25) means that it has the least chance of activating. For PvP, it forces players to defeat the user of Lethality out of fear of being OTKO'd. In PvE, endgame bosses are immune to it. It also requires quite a lot more preparations for it to even trigger for the Nohrian Trust user.

Like others, Corrin or whoever is their child tends to be the main attacker (or Corrin themselves if paired to one of their children or another good offensive skill user) as they have Nohrian Trust. I usually place 3 or 4 defensive skills on the user of Nohrian Trust such as Counter Magic (since Tomes/Scrolls are a pain to beat if the enemy is really buffed up stat-wise), Bow Breaker (no one likes being Rend Heaven'd by a Sniper or Knight that can use Bows and that also means you Takumi and Kiragi), Vantage (this is also meant for the Nohrian Trust) and Pavise (reduces pressure from most commonly used weapons). I'll replace Bow Breaker and Pavise with Renewal and Quixotic if I want to be daring.

Support Unit (mostly someone who has access to many offensive skills mainly Corrin's children) will have Rend Heaven (powerhouse skill), Aether (healing + heavy hitting), Luna (same as RH), Dragon Fang (original), Ignis (if the support is a male as Corrin is a balanced mixed attacker)/Astra (if the support unit is female).