Ema Skye Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Jigglypuff is definitely the worst character now Buffs to every other bottom tier cement it. I wonder if we've gone full circle now and Rosalina is back as #1 now with the Sheik, ZSS, Cloud, Bayo and MK nerfs. Also was the Sheik weight nerf ever confirmed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solrocknroll Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Jigglypuff is definitely the worst character now Buffs to every other bottom tier cement it. I'm pretty sure it's on purpose now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jave Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Also was the Sheik weight nerf ever confirmed? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I did something like that in a match I played last night. I'm so glad Samus has something now. (though like Bowser, it'll probably end up getting nerfed slightly) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batter the Beast Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 MK getting nerfed sucks but MEWTWO BUFFS WOOOOOO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DanMan Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 MK getting nerfed sucks but MEWTWO BUFFS WOOOOOO I can tell from your forum avatar that you're quite excited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolvir Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 How much do the nerfs change Corrin? I havent played in a month, but other than the counter being nerfed and not as good, how different is Corrin in playstyle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 17, 2016 Author Share Posted March 17, 2016 How much do the nerfs change Corrin? I havent played in a month, but other than the counter being nerfed and not as good, how different is Corrin in playstyle? Pretty much plays the same, the speed nerf was only a 0.03 difference. I haven't really felt the need to do anything different when I play as them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Geargia Gateway Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Pretty much plays the same, the speed nerf was only a 0.03 difference. I haven't really felt the need to do anything different when I play as them. Yes. Nothing really changed to much, but lessen the ability to follow up on certain moves, like a paralyzer. But the changes do effect some things like combo's now and makes the other FE characters a reason to be used instead of this all round dragon boi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyFireMage Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Holy shit. Zelda got buffed. I mean LEGIT buffed. YES Finally Zelda has a chance of being not absolute doodoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 18, 2016 Author Share Posted March 18, 2016 Us on Serenes will see some of the patches first hand in my newest tourney, if you'd like to tune in http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=61923 One match is up so far. ALSO more patch note confirmations, just gonna relist what we know and new stuff Bayonetta Dair Duration: 42F -> 47FWitch Twist (Ground)First Hit Damage: 4/4/3/3 -> 3/3/2/2Multihit (Hits 2-4) Damage: .3 -> .2Witch Time:Total Duration: 44 -> 49Witch Time Effects: Lasts shorter amount of timeWitch Time Duration Penalty Per Use: 50F/50F -> 75F/50F (after 100 frames, it recovers 6 frames of length)Heel Slide:Startup: 2.1F -> 2.46FHit 2 Duration: 7F -> 8FButton Held Total Duration: 72F -> 77FFsmash:All Hits KBG: 105 -> 102All Hits BKB: 25 -> 26Usmash:Early Hit KBG: 92 -> 90Normal Hit KBG: 92 -> 90Late Hit KBG: 92 -> 90 Bowser Air Speed: 0.98 -> 1Weight: 128 -> 130Item Toss Strength: 1.31432 -> 1.33432 Charizard Air Speed 0.87 -> 0.92 Weight 115 -> 116Nair:Landing Lag: 22F -> 20FDamage: 10/7/7/7 -> 12/9/9/9KBG: 90 -> 78Fair:Landing Lag: 31F -> 22FDamage: 11/12 -> 12/13Bair:Landing Lag: 33F -> 24FDamage: 15/13/10/10 -> 16/14/11/11Sweetspot Size: 4.5-> 5Uair Landing Lag: 22F -> 20FDair Landing Lag: 35F -> 33FFlare Blitz:Explosion KBG: 78 -> 84Second Hitbox: New hitbox added, extending the move's reach to the base of his tailItem Toss Strength: 1.198 -> 1.208 Cloud Uair Early/Late Damage: 13/9.5 -> 12/8.5Forward Smash Third Hit KBG: 119 -> 115Down Smash Second Hit KBG: 96 -> 94Limit Cross Slash KGB: 155 -> 153Finishing Touch (Air):Normal Hit KBG: 417 -> 359Late Hit KBG: 390 -> 335Windbox KBG: 100 -> 86Limit Charge Total Charge Time: 362F -> 404FFront/Back Roll Intangibility: 4-17F -> 4-15F Corrin Uair:Damage: 10 -> 9KBG: 94 -> 99Nair Early/Late Damage: 8/6.5 -> 7/5,5Fair Damage: 8.5 -> 7.5Dragon Fang Shot:Fully Charged Damage: 13 -> 11Uncharged Damage: 11 -> 9Non-Fully Charged Damage: 4-10 -> 4-8Counter Surge:Damage Multiplier: x1.3 -> x1.2Counter Active Frames: 7-29F -> 7-24FBugfix: Damage scales properly instead of being limited to the minimum 8% when slowed down.Walk Speed: 1.2 -> 1.15Run Speed: 1.5 -> 1.45Air Speed: 1 -> .97Front/Back Roll:Total Frames: 29F -> 30FIntangibility: 4-16F -> 4-14FItem Toss Strenght: 1.028 -> 1.026 Duck Hunt Fsmash Final Hit KBG: 123 -> 125Dsmash Final Hit KBG: 153 -> 155Usmash Final Hit KBG: 110 -> 112 Ganondorf Jab:Startup Sweetspot/Sourspot: 8F/7F -> 7F/6FDamage: 7/10/4 -> 8/10/6Hitbox X Position: 12/18/7 -> 11/19/7Total Duration: 34F -> 28FDash Attack Total Frames: 41F -> 37FWizard's Foot:Ground Damage: 12/12/10 -> 14/12/12Hitbox Z Position: -1/-3/-4 -> 0/-3/6Wizard's Dropkick (Custom 1):Damage: 10/10/9 -> 12/12/11Hitbox Z Position: 1/-1/6 -> 0/-1/8Wizard's Assault (Custom 2):Damage: 9/9/7 -> 11/11/9Hitbox Z Position: -1/-3/4 -> 0/-3/6Flame Choke:Air Grabbox X Position: 5.5 -> 7.5Ground Grabbox X Position: 5.2 -> 7.2Flame Wave (Custom 1):Air Grabbox X Position: 6 -> 8Ground Grabbox X Position: 5.2 -> 7.2 Greninja Dash Attack:Hitbox: 9-12F -> 7-10FTotal Duration: 32F -> 30FStanding Grab Startup: 14F -> 11FFair Landing Lag: 18F -> 15FBair Landing Lag: 16F -> 13FBonk: Headbonk angle changed (survival-ability improved) Kirby Dsmash Early Hit KBG: 109 -> 110Fsmash:Early Hit KBG: 100 -> 102Late Hit KBG: 67 -> 69Usmash:Early Hit KBG: 103/103/97 -> 104/104/99Normal Hit KBG 97 -> 98Late Hit KBG: 51 -> 52Hammer Flip:Uncharged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78Full Charged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78Uncharged Air KBG: 76 -> 78Full Charged Air KBG: 76 -> 78Hammer Bash (Custom 1):Air Second Hit Hammer Head KBG: 76 -> 78Air Second Hit Hammer Handle KBG: 76 -> 78Ground Hammer Head KBG: 76 -> 78Ground Hammer Handle KBG: 76 -> 78Giant Hammer (Custom 2):Uncharged Air KBG: 76 -> 78Full Charged Air KBG: 76 -> 78Uncharged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78Full Charged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78 Link Dsmash Second Hit KBG: 57 -> 63Dash Attack:14/13/12 Damage KBG: 78/78/72 -> 85/85/7714/13/12 Damage Angles: 45/60/70 -> 45/50/55 Metaknight Uair:Damage: 5 -> 4Angle: 78/78/60 -> 69/69/52SDI Multiplier: 1.0 -> 1.5Fair Landing Lag: 20F -> 16F Mewtwo Weight: 72 -> 74Run Speed: 1.9 -> 2.05Usmash Total Duration: 73F -> 68FNair Multihit Hitbox Size: 2.3 -> 3.0 Pac-Man Bair KBG: 98 -> 100Fsmash First Hit/Second Hit KBG: 97/100 -> 99/102Usmash Second Hit Early/Late KBG: 95/90 -> 97/92Dsmash Early/Late KBG: 84/90 -> 86/92 Palutena Rapid Jab Finisher Damage: 3 -> 3.5Nair Multihit/Final Damage: 1.5/4 -> 1.7/5Fair:Damage: 8 -> 9KBG: 100 -> 92BKB: 30 -> 31 Peach Uair First Hit (Hitbox 2) Ground/Air Value: 3 -> 2 (No longer hits all grounded opponents, reducing the amount of characters that the infinite can be performed on) Pikachu Quick Attack Cancel: Removed on Umbra Clock Tower (Normal & Omega) Robin Jab:First Hit BKB: 35/35/35 -> 40/40/40Second Hit BKB: 30/30/35 -> 45/45/45Nosferatu:Standard Nosferatu:Startup: 16F -> 15FSet Frame Duration (Starting at Frame 21): 1F -> 2F (Frames when the move actually connects are changed as a result)Distant Nosferatu Set Frame Duration: 1F -> 2F (Frames when the move actually connects are changed as a result) Samus Homing Missile Startup: 20F -> 18FSuper Missile:Startup: 20F -> 18FFrames 3-23: Frame Duration of .9 added (Decreases startup by approximately 2 frames)Frames 23-43: Frame Duration of 1.1 added (Increases duration of shooting animation by 2 frames, thus not changing the duration of the move as a whole)Charge Shot:Uncharged Startup: 16F -> 15FFully Charged Startup: 16F -> 15FFrames 10-20: Frame Duration of .8 added (Decreases startup by approximately 2 frames)Frames 20-40: Frame Duration of 1.1 added (Increases duration of shooting animation by approximately 2 frames, thus not changing the duration of the move as a whole)Ftilt:Down Angle:Damage: 6/7/8/9 -> 8/9/10/11BKB: 10/10/30/30 -> 20/20/30/30Normal Angle:Damage: 5/6/7/8 -> 7/8/9/10BKB: 10/10/30/30 -> 20/20/30/30Up Angle:Damage: 6/7/8/9 -> 8/9/10/11BKB: 10/10/30/30 -> 20/20/30/30Nair:Hit 1 Damage: 8/8 -> 10/10Hit 2 (Normal) Damage: 7/7 -> 9/9Hit 2 (Late):Damage: 6/6 -> 8/8Size: 3.3/3.3 -> 3.6/3.6Z Position: 5.3/0 -> 5.4/0Fair:First Hit:Hitbox 1:Angle: 295 -> 60WBKB: 3 -> 15Hitbox 2:WBKB: 3 -> 15Size: 6 -> 4X/Z Position: 0/9 -> 2/10.7Hitbox 3 (Entirely New Hitbox):Damage: N/A -> 3Angle: N/A -> 80BKG: N/A -> 100WBKB: N/A -> 15Size: N/A -> 4X/Y/Z Position: N/A -> (-2, -.6, 7.2)Stretch X/Y/Z Position: N/A -> (-2, -.6, 7.2)Hits 2-4:Hitbox 1:Angle: 20 -> 18WBKB: 25 -> 30Bomb Asynchronous Timer: 47 -> 45 (Approximately 2 less frames of endlag)Dash Attack:Early Hit (Entirely New Hitbox):Hitbox: N/A -> 8F -> 10FDamage: N/A -> 7Angle: N/A -> 75BKG: N/A -> 60BKB: N/A -> 80Size: N/A -> 4.5Total Frames: 37F -> 33FShield Damage: 2 -> 1Dsmash Total Frames: 51F -> 44FStanding Grab Total Frames: 75F -> 69FDash Grab Total Frames: 73F -> 67FPivot Grab Total Frames: 89F -> 83FAir Speed: .95 -> 1.03Gravity: .75 -> .77Fall Speed: 1.25 -> 1.3Fastfall Speed: 2 -> 2.08 Sheik Dsmash KBG: 155 -> 165Fair:Defensive Hitbox Z Postion: 3.5 -> 2.5Hitbox Z Position: 3.5 -> 2.5Fthrow:Angle: 70 -> 72KBG: 65 -> 79Dthrow:Angle: 80 -> 77KBG: 75 -> 90Needle: Range Decreased (range reduced to ~80% of what it was previously)Weight: 84 -> 81Item Toss Strength: .896 -> .866 Zelda Ftilt:Hitbox Startup: 12F -> 10FTotal Frames: 39F -> 37FHitbox Z Position: 3 -> 3.5Jab:First & Second Hit Damage: 2.5 -> 3Final Hit Damage: 3 -> 5Final Hit KBG: 130 -> 95Final Hit BKB: 35 -> 40Dsmash Total Frames: 40 -> 37Nair:Multihit damage 2/1 -> 2.5/1.55th Hit Damage: 3 -> 55th Hit KBG 160/160/140/140 -> 130/130/110/110Uair:Damage: 15 -> 17KBG: 90 -> 84Hitbox Size: 7 -> 8All Grabs: Increased horizontal rangeNayru's Love Intangibility: 5-12F -> 5-15F Zero Suit Samus Uair:Damage: 8 -> 6.5KBG: 110 -> 125Nair:Damage: 10 -> 8KBG: 80 -> 96KB: 40 -> 38Normal Hit:Hitbox 1:Size: 6 -> 5.7Stretch X Position: 11 -> 10Hitbox 2 Stretch X/Y Position: 20/7.5 -> 19/7Late Hit:Hitbox 1:Size: 6 -> 5.6Stretch X/Y Position: 9/14.6 -> 6.6/13.8Hitbox 2 Stretch X/Y Position: 16/17 -> 15/16.5Bthrow:Damage: 4 -> 6KBG: 25 -> 45KB: 70 -> 72Dthrow:Second Hit Damage: 5 -> 3KBG: 25 -> 60KB: 100 -> 90Plasma Whip:First Hit KB: 80 -> 100Multihit:Hit 1:Damage: .8 -> 1.2KBG: 90 -> 70Stretch Position: N/A -> (17,8,0)Hit 2:Damage: .8 -> 1.2KBG: 90 -> 65Stretch Position: N/A -> (21,8,0)Hit 3:Damage: .8 -> 1.2KBG: 90 -> 65Stretch Position: N/A -> (25,8,0)Hit 4:Damage: .8 -> 1.2KBG: 90 -> 65Stretch Position: N/A -> (28,8,0)Final Hit:Damage: 6 -> 7.5Stretch Position: N/A -> (35, 8.5, 0)Normal/Dash/Pivot Grab Last Active Frame: 29F -> 25FTotal Duration: 58F -> 55F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DanMan Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 And Robin gets... tweaked, I guess? Get back to me when they increased his movement speed/grab range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 19, 2016 Author Share Posted March 19, 2016 ZeRo's thoughts on the Sheik nerfs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Geargia Gateway Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 Sheik is murdered. This is just sad. Makes Diddy's nerf lok like all he ever did was drop his ice cream.#SakuraiIsAMurderer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zera Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 You can't be top tier forever. I'm sure Sheik is still viable, just not at the level where she's the center of the metagame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knife Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 She has sooo much trouble killing now, you pretty much have to get a Nair/Needles > Bouncing Fish, Bouncing Fish near the blast zone, or Usmash read to kill before fair/ftilt do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindCoco Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Seriously, this patch is the best thing that's happened to competitive smash in a while. The top tiers who were defining tourneys everywhere got toned down while the clearly underpowered ones got some buffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 Seriously, this patch is the best thing that's happened to competitive smash in a while. The top tiers who were defining tourneys everywhere got toned down while the clearly underpowered ones got some buffs. Rosalina, Sonic, Mario and Pikachu were untouched. Bayonetta didn't get too badly touched. Etc Cloud is still gonna do really well despite his nerfs, so basically the only one not going to be doing as well is Sheik, Metaknight players have already found workarounds for their nerfs, I doubt the meta is going to change all that significantly, despite the fact that this is the most balanced smash, its still going to be a bit of a top 15 with some others in results Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DanMan Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Rosalina, Sonic, Mario and Pikachu were untouched. Bayonetta didn't get too badly touched. Etc Cloud is still gonna do really well despite his nerfs, so basically the only one not going to be doing as well is Sheik, Metaknight players have already found workarounds for their nerfs, I doubt the meta is going to change all that significantly, despite the fact that this is the most balanced smash, its still going to be a bit of a top 15 with some others in results Basically, this. The one thing the update really did was dismantle Shiek, thereby helping along Bayo's superiority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) Rosalina, Sonic, Mario and Pikachu were untouched. That said, with the exception of Rosa maybe, Shiek and Zero Suit Samus were firmly top tier characters while I think those characters listed are a bit more hard to define their exact placement. One could argue that Ryu or Fox are better than any of those characters as well, so I think its better that we have a vague notion of who is top tier now. Well, except for the fact that Bayonetta is clearly top tier, and I do think Shiek's nerfs were overkill. Edited March 22, 2016 by Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 That said, with the exception of Rosa maybe, Shiek and Zero Suit Samus were firmly top tier characters while I think those characters listed are a bit more hard to define their exact placement. One could argue that Ryu or Fox are better than any of those characters as well, so I think its better that we have a vague notion of who is top tier now. Well, except for the fact that Bayonetta is clearly top tier, and I do think Shiek's nerfs were overkill. Ryu's main problem is that barely anyone plays him, he'd arguably be the best if more people played him, Fox also has a hard time getting kills, he has to fish for some, Sonic, Mario and Pikachu can at least get some solid kill comfirms. Like Fox is good, but I don't think he's better than those 3, we'll see, people are already finding some anti Bayonetta tactics, but rip Sheik players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batter the Beast Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 So a lot of people have been wondering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 Looks like Mewtwo is climbing the ranks quite well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ema Skye Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Ryu's main problem is that barely anyone plays him, he'd arguably be the best if more people played him Ryu can't be the best because Bayonetta exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) Ryu can't be the best because Bayonetta exists. Bayonetta's neutral game is too meh to be top tier though. She can be number 2, but she isn't number 1 in my eyes. Edited March 22, 2016 by Jedi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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