In which blah the Prussian blind reacts to FE Fates: Conquest

[RedRob]

No, I wasn't serious.

But I would like someone to do an analysis regarding Bushido and traits within Ryoma's personality and his life that reflect that moral code.

Um, I was talking about josh, not you Sai.

That said, Bushido could have easily been a great subject for his supports. Could have even been a fictional version of it exclusive to Hoshido. But that would have meant actual world building, which IS doesn't do anymore.

[Tolvir]

I also think it's hilarious how the fanbase blatantly favors Nohr. It's pretty much because Hoshido is "too pure" or "not complex enough" even though Hoshido does many honorable things in the story. The small stuff is all that's remembered. Even as an honorable person, what reason does Ryoma have to let Nohr walk all over him? The place is abandoned, and IIRC it isn't even a hospital but actually an apothecary.

At least for me I'm not trying to favor one side or the other, I am just pointing out the fact that the story isnt nearly as one sided as people like to try and say. Hoshido when you look at the story isnt exactly a peace loving nation of butterflies and rainbows, and quite a few of them are either racist or ruthless. The existence of Ninja's alone is a good picture. Ninjas arent exactly honorable warriors that are about justice and peace and all things good, they are assassins sent to kill targets. Even some of the characters in Hoshido arent exactly nice people. For example Reina and Saizo aren't exactly good guys either, one is an assassin, the other is a person who enjoys watching others suffer and die. Not exactly traits of your typical fantasy hero, but that doesnt mean they are completely evil either. Nohr clearly isnt any better with its leadership, and characters like Niles, Peri, Hans, Iago, and a few others.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Tolvir

[BruceLee]

In a way I even understand what Nohr did in Cheve. It was horrible, but at the same time if you want these type of problems to stop, making examples of people is what you do. Its what Britain and Spain did with the pirate problems they had. Strung up their mangled dead bodies in the harbor as examples to all the other pirates if they got caught. I guarantee that made a few of them think twice.

You mean people standing up for their rights? How dare they?

[saisymbolic]

You mean people standing up for their rights? How dare they?

I'm assuming they referred to them as "problems" from the point of view of a large, powerful kingdom such as what Nohr apparently is.

Any type of act that could disturb the "peace" and threaten the overarching hold the kingdom has over its people and land could be considered a "problem". The reasoning for the uprising/riot/rebellion is irrelevant in the eyes of a ruler such as Garon or

what used to be Garon.

Like, if I were playing Dynasty Warriors: Empires and a mercenary group raised a banner against me. My next course of action as a ruler would be to quash the rebellion and make sure that doesn't happen again--using whatever means I find appropriate.

Edited April 7, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[joshcja]

I'm assuming they referred to them as "problems" from the point of view of a large, powerful kingdom such as what Nohr apparently is.

Any type of act that could disturb the "peace" and threaten the overarching hold the kingdom has over its people and land could be considered a "problem". The reasoning for the uprising/riot/rebellion is irrelevant in the eyes of a ruler such as Garon or

what used to be Garon.

Like, if I were playing Dynasty Warriors: Empires and a mercenary group raised a banner against me. My next course of action as a ruler would be to quash the rebellion and make sure that doesn't happen again--using whatever means I find appropriate.

What do you do if Lu Bu is leading them though?

[saisymbolic]

What do you do if Lu Bu is leading them though?

It depends on which version he is.

If it is Pre-DW6, I would run like a little bitch, let him have that freebie, then bide my time until he was the last territory on the map so my forces could collectively kick his ass back to the stone ages.

If it is Post-DW6, I would run like a little bitch, let him have that freebie, pull off multiple raids on his territory until he has no troops, then I would let my forces collectively kick his ass back to the stone ages.

Edited April 7, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Lanko]

You mean people standing up for their rights? How dare they?

To be fair, they live in a feudal system and such notions didn't exist. Most likely the "right" they wanted would be the freedom that, If they weren't conquered, they would be conquering and expanding themselves, like Mokushu.

Games make us sympathize (not wrongly) with rebellions like these, but as soon as cracks formed in an empire or some nation gained independence and momentum, those nations would either form alliances with other discontents or conquer/annex other territories to grow to either gain power to stand up for themselves or use the momentum to conquer themselves. The "dance of kingdoms and empires" throughout history show this.

And Cheve has an impressive number of heavy infantry and chivalry, as even Garon and Iago were afraid of them. It's doubtful they would keep such an army doing nothing after the rebellion, if we consider they win their independence.

But to be fair, again, maybe this would be expecting too much of a game story.

[BruceLee]

Most likely the "right" they wanted would be the freedom that, If they weren't conquered, they would be conquering and expanding themselves, like Mokushu.

No, they were only rebelling to break free from Garon's oppression, as far as we know. You're just making stuff up, for some reason.

[Lanko]

No, they were only rebelling to break free from Garon's oppression, as far as we know. You're just making stuff up, for some reason.

This is mostly a problem of the game not showing us stuff, but we don't see any oppression until Nohr arrives to quell the rebellion. It was not like Daein on Crimea or Begnion on Daein.

- The leaders of the Ice Tribe and Cheve are natives and not appointed governors.

- Cheve even has free access to steel, horses and armor, all very expensive, all the while we are led to believe Nohr is a very poor country with little resources. Why Nohr doesn't incorporate it's soldier onto it's own army, instead of letting them gather together like that?

- There aren't Nohr soldiers garrisoning neither the Ice Tribe nor Cheve.

If they broke free from Nohr, how long they would keep that freedom? They would either become dependent of Hoshido (with more freedom, granted, but it's subject to its whims) or expand.

[saisymbolic]

I dont think you understand, I am not arguing with you, I am agreeing. It in no way is hypocritical when Nohr would likely do worst. And it is in a time of war, you do what you can to win, within reason of course. In a way I even understand what Nohr did in Cheve. It was horrible, but at the same time if you want these type of problems to stop, making examples of people is what you do. Its what Britain and Spain did with the pirate problems they had. Strung up their mangled dead bodies in the harbor as examples to all the other pirates if they got caught. I guarantee that made a few of them think twice.

You mean people standing up for their rights? How dare they?

No, they were only rebelling to break free from Garon's oppression, as far as we know. You're just making stuff up, for some reason.

What was Nohr as the occupying kingdom supposed to do in response to Cheve's rebellion, then?

Even better, pretend it wasn't Nohr. Just pretend that it was a random kingdom that had occupied/annexed Cheve and Cheve decided to rebel.

What actions would you, as the leader, take in response?

No sarcasm. I'm legitimately curious as to what you might have done in response.

[BruceLee]

What was Nohr as the occupying kingdom supposed to do in response to Cheve's rebellion, then?

Even better, pretend it wasn't Nohr. Just pretend that it was a random kingdom that had occupied/annexed Cheve and Cheve decided to rebel.

What actions would you, as the leader, take in response?

No sarcasm. I'm legitimately curious as to what you might have done in response.

That's after the fact. I wouldn't be a dick in the first place, oppressing them. Tolvir says he understand what Nohr did(the massacre?), while referring to the Cheve rebels as a ''problem''.

I'm getting the vibe that you guys are defending the oppressor and blaming the victim for rebelling, and it's disturbing me tbh.

Edited April 7, 2016 by BruceLee

[Lanko]

That's after the fact. I wouldn't be a dick in the first place, oppressing them. Tolvir says he understand what Nohr did(the massacre?), while referring to the Cheve rebels as a ''problem''.

I'm getting the vibe that you guys are defending the oppressor and blaming the victim for rebelling, and it's disturbing me tbh.

I didn't say one or the other was right or wrong. I was saying that it could be curious that after Cheve acquired it's independence, it would need to either be under Hoshido's wings or expand itself for it's own protection and to acquire more resources/land/populate to keep it's freedom, as Nohr is too big and eventually they would reconquer Cheve. They would need to become a conqueror/opressor themselves.

Now that could've been a good story...

Edited April 7, 2016 by Lanko

[saisymbolic]

That's after the fact. I wouldn't be a dick in the first place, oppressing them. Tolvir says he understand what Nohr did(the massacre?), while referring to the Cheve rebels as a ''problem''.

I'm getting the vibe that you guys are defending the oppressor and blaming the victim for rebelling, and it's disturbing me tbh.

That's not what I'm doing at all. I am looking at it from a neutral point of view, using information I have read/watched/learned/played over the course of living to analyze it. I am applying real-life logic to the Cheve rebellion, which apparently is not a good thing as I am now victim shaming a fictional entity.

Cheve has the right to freedom--as does any living person or being. However, considering that Fates is based off a medieval setting, I know that they will not get that freedom without repercussions because they are an owned territory of Nohr. I am applying what I have learned of history to the situation. When a territory is threatening the overarching kingdom's authority, the overarching kingdom will most likely send units to quell the rebellion.

I do not condone Nohr's actions after the in-game battle nor do I condone the brutality of it but, using the information gleaned through years of reading/watching/playing/ the history of various real-life countries/kingdoms, I can look at it from the perspective of a larger kingdom and understand the reasoning as to why they would go so far as to kill off Scarlet, the leader of the rebellion, and the rest of the surviving soldiers. They do not want a repeat of the rebellion. They do not want a faction possibly threatening their authority.

Why is it always necessary to state the obvious? No, I do not condone Nohr's actions. Yes, Cheve has the right to freedom. No, I do not condone any real life kingdom's actions. Yes, all real life human beings and entities have the right to freedom.

But, I can look at both sides of the story and I can understand each sides' action. I can look at the grey of a seemingly black and white situation. Despite one side being wrong and the other being right, I can still understand why each side did what they did.

Understanding =/= Condoning.

Edited April 7, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Tolvir]

That's after the fact. I wouldn't be a dick in the first place, oppressing them. Tolvir says he understand what Nohr did(the massacre?), while referring to the Cheve rebels as a ''problem''.

I'm getting the vibe that you guys are defending the oppressor and blaming the victim for rebelling, and it's disturbing me tbh.

I in no way support the oppression and conquering of others. You are taking what I said completely out of context. What I meant by what I said is that I understand the idea of using one group's horrible demise as an example for the others. It works, even if its a horrible thing to do. Its why I used the example of England and Spain using the mangled bodies of pirates and stringing them up in the harbors as examples for the other pirates for what would happen if they got caught. It worked, it made pirates think twice before raiding a harbor that had those bodies.

Overall I do not support Nohr in this situation. Its horrible, and Cheve and the Ice Tribe have every right to rebel. But from the Nohrian point of view, I completely understand what was done by using the rebels as examples because it would make other rebels think twice before doing so. Horrible for sure, but it works.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Tolvir

[BruceLee]

I understand that, but you said you understood what Nohr did, which is what i replied to.

I can look at the grey of a seemingly black and white situation. Despite one side being wrong and the other being right, I can still understand why each side did what they did.

Understanding =/= Condoning.

Except there is no grey in this case. I can also understand why Nohr did what they did, because they're evil.

[Tolvir]

I understand that, but you said you understood what Nohr did, which is what i replied to.

Except there is no grey in this case. I can also understand why Nohr did what they did, because they're evil.

Well I think there is a bit of misunderstanding here. I fully agree that Nohr, at least in their Leadership with Iago, Hans, and Garon, are evil. The people on the other hand are a mixed bag.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Tolvir

[saisymbolic]

Except there is no grey in this case. I can also understand why Nohr did what they did, because they're evil.

I do understood what Nohr did. You seem to be misunderstanding me.

Yes, Nohr is evil. Quite honestly, the only reason they went out of their way to kill the rebels was to be evil asses and to rile up Corrin. There is no excuse for that. I don't agree with that. I know that. I am not one of the people that needs to be reminded every ten seconds of that. Nohr are the oppressors. They are the filth of the earth. There is no light in Nohr, except for Elise. The way they act, there is no reason for that other than the fact that they are evil.

However, I am looking at the situation as if I would look at one from history. You could even say that I'm the one that applied the grey. I applied the grey. My bad.

For that, I am sorry.

I am sorry for adding depth to the situation even though there was none.

I am sorry for looking at the situation as if Garon had any ounce of intelligence or competence as a leader.

I am sorry for explaining why I understood why he would order the slaughter of the rebels (as a warning to any other possible rebels, by the way).

I am sorry.

Please understand.

[RedRob]

There's also the fact that we have no idea why Cheve rebelled. We assume it's because Garon's a dick, but Lanko has provided evidence that Garon isn't all that oppressive when it comes to governing territories. Which calls into question, how does everyone else see Garon? We get to see he's blatantly evil through the eyes of the royals, but they are his family and thus get to see him up close, something a regular person wouldn't be able to do. How is he seen by the rest of the royal court? What does the average Nohrian citizen think of him?

We don't know to do lack of world building, but it could possibly be something like Hitler's rise to power and Nazi Germany. The country is in bad shape, and this guy comes along saying he can fix it. Everyone is so desperate that they follow him, and blinded by nationalism and propaganda, they ignore all the bad stuff he's having the country do because he's actually giving them hope and improving the economy, for the time being, at the least. (Which brings up, how does an average Nohrian view the war?)

We might have a WWI situation, where one country invades another. This prompts another country(or the invaded country if this actually happened in Fates) to to use propaganda to convince yet another country to help fight against the invader.

In short, what I'm trying to say is, there is almost no context as to why the rebellion happened, which makes the situation a bit murky. Is Garon blatantly evil even to the public, prompting a rebellion? Is he viewed positively by Nohr for the most part, except for some parts, due to them not falling for his act, whether it's because he oppressed them, their view isn't colored by nationalism, or they been convinced by another country's propaganda to rebel?

For all we know, Cheve is rebelling for a illegitimate reason, and they just happened to be right in that Garon's a monster and a dick. It's not like they know him personally.

Or maybe they know Garon didn't even try diplomatic means to get Hoshido's crops, (which is quite possible since he did kill Sumeragi there) and oppose the war on the principle it could have possibly been avoided. Either is possible, along with anything else people come up with, since there's not much exposition on the matter.

Just to note though, I agree Nohr is in the wrong here, but I know that thanks to dramatic irony, as I know as the player Garon's evil, since it's shown to me, but the nature of dramatic irony means I, an outside being is privy to that, while the characters in the story aren't. Thus, why do Cheve think Garon is evil? (Besides the massacre, which was a response to what may or may not have been a legitimate rebellion)

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Garon seems to be able to keep his maniacal laughter and the most mustache-twirlingly evil of his schemes to when he's either alone or just with Iago, so I want to say he at least knows how to put on a decent public face. One thing that might call that into question, though, is that the entire castle looks like a torture dungeon. I guess there probably wouldn't be too many common folk in and out of there, but it probably also wouldn't take too many eyes for rumours of how freaky the inside looks to spread.

You know, I was about to say that I don't think we get to see any actual non-conquered Nohrian territory, but there is the port that we defended in C10. I don't recall getting to see any civilians there, which is kind of a shame. I guess we could also take that to mean that maybe the civilians knew to stay clear of the army. The town also looks pretty normal, so I we can probably assume the citizens also aren't treated too poorly.

All said, I'm leaning toward him having at least decent PR.

[RedRob]

Garon seems to be able to keep his maniacal laughter and the most mustache-twirlingly evil of his schemes to when he's either alone or just with Iago, so I want to say he at least knows how to put on a decent public face. One thing that might call that into question, though, is that the entire castle looks like a torture dungeon. I guess there probably wouldn't be too many common folk in and out of there, but it probably also wouldn't take too many eyes for rumours of how freaky the inside looks to spread.

You know, I was about to say that I don't think we get to see any actual non-conquered Nohrian territory, but there is the port that we defended in C10. I don't recall getting to see any civilians there, which is kind of a shame. I guess we could also take that to mean that maybe the civilians knew to stay clear of the army. The town also looks pretty normal, so I we can probably assume the citizens also aren't treated too poorly.

All said, I'm leaning toward him having at least decent PR.

There's also the question of values. I mean, in feudal times women were basically trophies to barter with, at least the royal ones. Now, in modern times that's normal in some countries and wrong in others.

By this, I mean, what is normal to a Nohrian? That could be the normal style for castles in Nohr. Plus maybe Garon does act a bit dickish in public, but is considered normal to the citizens, since it matches with Nohrian etiquette. After all, this is a fictional country in medieval times. We don't know what is considered wrong and right by Nohrian society. To the average citizen, maybe it's normal and right to invade countries all the time.

The more we talk about stuff like this, the more the lack of worldbuilding annoys me.

[saisymbolic]

Garon seems to be able to keep his maniacal laughter and the most mustache-twirlingly evil of his schemes to when he's either alone or just with Iago, so I want to say he at least knows how to put on a decent public face. One thing that might call that into question, though, is that the entire castle looks like a torture dungeon. I guess there probably wouldn't be too many common folk in and out of there, but it probably also wouldn't take too many eyes for rumours of how freaky the inside looks to spread.

You know, I was about to say that I don't think we get to see any actual non-conquered Nohrian territory, but there is the port that we defended in C10. I don't recall getting to see any civilians there, which is kind of a shame. I guess we could also take that to mean that maybe the civilians knew to stay clear of the army. The town also looks pretty normal, so I we can probably assume the citizens also aren't treated too poorly.

All said, I'm leaning toward him having at least decent PR.

Seriously.

How the people of Nohr—the people we don't control or see—view Garon is a perspective that we are missing and it is an important one. At least for world-building.

If Garon is an evil king (Yes, I know Garon is evil), why are there not mentions of people attempting to leave Nohr? Why are there no news of refugees attempting to escape to Hoshido, the peace-loving country with bountiful harvests and a kind, just ruler? Why are there no news of uprisings or riots? Why is Cheve and the Ice Tribe the only regions to attempt to rebel? Even if there is a possibility to die, that fear doesn't stop some individuals from rebelling against their rulers—we know this from history and everyday life (as well as the game itself). Is it like Daein, in which the kingdom is starving but the king allows a chance to rise above poor standing by joining the army? Or are the poorer folk too busy trying to live from day to day, absorbed in their own little world, to worry about their king and the elite that don't understand their suffering and struggles?

Pointing all that out simply leads back to the same dead, beaten horse that Garon and the story of Conquest had so many interesting ideas but was wasted in the end.

[RedRob]

Seriously.

How the people of Nohr—the people we don't control or see—view Garon is a perspective that we are missing and it is an important one. At least for world-building.

If Garon is an evil king (Yes, I know Garon is evil), why are there not mentions of people attempting to leave Nohr? Why are there no news of refugees attempting to escape to Hoshido, the peace-loving country with bountiful harvests and a kind, just ruler? Why are there no news of uprisings or riots? Why is Cheve and the Ice Tribe the only regions to attempt to rebel? Even if there is a possibility to die, that fear doesn't stop some individuals from rebelling against their rulers—we know this from history and everyday life (as well as the game itself). Is it like Daein, in which the kingdom is starving but the king allows a chance to rise above poor standing by joining the army? Or are the poorer folk too busy trying to live from day to day, absorbed in their own little world, to worry about their king and the elite that don't understand their suffering and struggles?

Pointing all that out simply leads back to the same dead, beaten horse that Garon and the story of Conquest had so many interesting ideas but was wasted in the end.

Well said. I would also like to see how the Tribes and animal people came about, or at least how they got to their current states, and some more details about the beliefs and cultures in this world.

There's so much potential in the premise of the story, that nothing is done with. it could have easily been the game of thrones of FE.

I actually know of a fanfic that does a wonderful job of immersing you in the the world of Fates, yet it's like I'm looking at a cardboard backdrop when I look at it in the game. It's superficial and is just there.

Here's the fic,https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11389483/1/Into-A-Walled-Garden

[Lanko]

How the people of Nohr—the people we don't control or see—view Garon is a perspective that we are missing and it is an important one. At least for world-building.

If Garon is an evil king (Yes, I know Garon is evil), why are there not mentions of people attempting to leave Nohr? Why are there no news of refugees attempting to escape to Hoshido, the peace-loving country with bountiful harvests and a kind, just ruler? Why are there no news of uprisings or riots?

On this specific part, we can guess that both countries are at war long before Corrin is kidnapped, so that would be at least more than a decade. There's plenty of bad blood between them and most important: physical appearances. Nohr seems european/germanic, while Hoshido is asian/japanese.

People from one kingdom on another would easily stand out and would always be strangers and everyone would always consider them suspicious.

I remember after Agincourt the French blamed the Genovese for the disaster and people simply killed/lynched whatever Genovese they happened to see in the streets.

I wouldn't like to be a Nohrian in Hoshido after that explosion in the town plaza. Even Azura, who had the protection of the queen and lived her entire life there, and even said the people accepted her, was kidnapped by a group of Hoshidans to be killed.

Don't think any Hoshidan would have better luck in Nohr either, were the fortunes of both nations reversed.

Also, everyone would consider them spies. Any provocation, any misfortune on Hoshido or lost battle would be cause to flare the tempers of the populace. Better to stay in your poor country than live in fear that your neighbors will one day tear down your house and kill you or your family (or worse) because they think you are spies or Hoshido lost a battle and someone had a son in the army or something. I think even in WW2 the US separated the Japanese population both to prevent spies and for their own safety, so it's not only a medieval thing.

Considering this, immigration seems out of question for both sides. Agree with everything else you said. I mean, even on the GBA games we could visit those houses to get information about the region, the rulers, what was happening, etc...

Edited April 8, 2016 by Lanko

[RedRob]

On this specific part, we can guess that both countries are at war long before Corrin is kidnapped, so that would be at least more than a decade. There's plenty of bad blood between them and most important: physical appearances. Nohr seems european/germanic, while Hoshido is asian/japanese.

People from one kingdom on another would easily stand out and would always be strangers and everyone would always consider them suspicious.

I remember after Agincourt the French blamed the Genovese for the disaster and people simply killed/lynched whatever Genovese they happened to see in the streets.

I wouldn't like to be a Nohrian in Hoshido after that explosion in the town plaza. Even Azura, who had the protection of the queen and lived her entire life there, and even said the people accepted her, was kidnapped by a group of Hoshidans to be killed.

Don't think any Hoshidan would have better luck in Nohr either, were the fortunes of both nations reversed.

Also, everyone would consider them spies. Any provocation, any misfortune on Hoshido or lost battle would be cause to flare the tempers of the populace. Better to stay in your poor country than live in fear that your neighbors will one day tear down your house and kill you or your family (or worse) because they think you are spies or Hoshido lost a battle and someone had a son in the army or something. I think even in WW2 the US separated the Japanese population both to prevent spies and for their own safety, so it's not only a medieval thing.

Considering this, immigration seems out of question for both sides. Agree with everything else you said. I mean, even on the GBA games we could visit those houses to get information about the region, the rulers, what was happening, etc...

There's also a canyon separating the two countries, so there's the physical deterrence as well.

[saisymbolic]

On this specific part, we can guess that both countries are at war long before Corrin is kidnapped, so that would be at least more than a decade. There's plenty of bad blood between them and most important: physical appearances. Nohr seems european/germanic, while Hoshido is asian/japanese.

People from one kingdom on another would easily stand out and would always be strangers and everyone would always consider them suspicious.

I remember after Agincourt the French blamed the Genovese for the disaster and people simply killed/lynched whatever Genovese they happened to see in the streets.

I wouldn't like to be a Nohrian in Hoshido after that explosion in the town plaza. Even Azura, who had the protection of the queen and lived her entire life there, and even said the people accepted her, was kidnapped by a group of Hoshidans to be killed.

Don't think any Hoshidan would have better luck in Nohr either, were the fortunes of both nations reversed.

Also, everyone would consider them spies. Any provocation, any misfortune on Hoshido or lost battle would be cause to flare the tempers of the populace. Better to stay in your poor country than live in fear that your neighbors will one day tear down your house and kill you or your family (or worse) because they think you are spies or Hoshido lost a battle and someone had a son in the army or something. I think even in WW2 the US separated the Japanese population both to prevent spies and for their own safety, so it's not only a medieval thing.

Considering this, immigration seems out of question for both sides. Agree with everything else you said. I mean, even on the GBA games we could visit those houses to get information about the region, the rulers, what was happening, etc...

Good points—especially about the physical appearances of each country. I was just thinking about it, in terms of Corrin. So, immigration is out between the two countries.

But that just brings up the question, for me personally, on if there are more large kingdoms like Hoshido and Nohr.

Not including the other one.

Did Nohr conquer and annex those hypothetical kingdoms as well? Did Hoshido perhaps do the same but, in a more diplomatic fashion? Makes me wonder.

But, yeah, there is something about Garon that keeps his kingdom and its citizens under control. It could be fear and despair. It could be desperation. Garon was said to be a charismatic leader (or, at least, a ladies' man). Could it be that, despite what we, the players, see him as, his soldiers see him as something completely different? It would be sad to think that all his foot soldiers are of the same moral compass of Hans and Iago—or maybe they are (which honestly doesn't make any sense).

Alas, it loops back to the beginning.

Also, I read that story, RedRob—it is a really good read. It's bad when the everyday fan can create a story more structured and entertaining than the people that created the very piece of work it was based upon.

Edited April 8, 2016 by SaiSymbolic