Children in future games

[maninbluejumpsuit]

I like the mechanic of kids, but good god their 'story' inclusion in fates was just so forced and horribly done (not sure if the blame is on the localization team alone or what).

I wouldn't mind seeing future fire emblem games with kids of characters, like if it was a multi-part story with a sizable time skip of... 15+ years, like how awakening had its 2 year time skip. I'm not sure if IS would be so quick to play the time travel card again, or try the 'baby's first hyperbolic time chamber' approach again after messing it up this hard.

The lack of detail on how maternity leave was handled also bugged me a little (quite alot actually). Clearing it up with a few lines on the mother going to a deeprealm for a few days -> week to deliver a kid, see them through early childhood, and go back to war would have done alot to make better sense of things, but apparently the wiki says Kana was born THEN put in the deeprealms, which... is just all sorts of off, and left me wondering what actually happened.

.

Does anyone know if the mothers went on a maternity leave to the deeprealms for a couple of days (which would make some sort of sense at least), or... did they really fight a war til their kids were born, and drop them off in deeprealm-day care after 9 months (which conflicts with a whole lot of things in the story depending on when, and implies alot of the cast is made of terrible mothers, F!corrin included if this were true)?

btw, I voted mixed feelings (for obvious reasons), and yes IF and only IF it's done right.

Edited April 21, 2016 by maninbluejumpsuit

[Medeus]

Voted no and no. Fates' implementation was terrible and honestly soured me on the concept as a whole, and unless they retool it into something less forced (like Thane's trainee mechanic), I wouldn't mind seeing it gone.

I like the mechanic of kids, but good god their 'story' inclusion in fates was just so forced and horribly done (not sure if the blame is on the localization team alone or what).

The reasoning was in the Japanese version as well, the localization had nothing to do with it.

[Thane]

I like the mechanic of kids, but good god their 'story' inclusion in fates was just so forced and horribly done (not sure if the blame is on the localization team alone or what).

Why does this seem to be such a common assumption? I've seen so many people blame the localization team for lines that are actually in the Japanese version as well. Here's a spoiler for you: the Japanese writing is not perfect.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Thane

[maninbluejumpsuit]

Why does this seem to be such a common assumption? I've seen so many people blame the localization team for lines that are actually in the Japanese version as well. Here's a spoiler for you: the Japanese writing is not perfect.

I clearly said 'I'm not sure'.

You should know why it's a common assumption after the amount of media that gets changed to make something more palatable for western audience, even at the cost of story quality, or otherwise. It's sorta their job. I don't see how potentially incorrectly blaming the original writers makes this any better. You'd probably get on my case if I were to say it was the original writers' fault when it is the localization's issue had the situation been reversed.

Again, I said I'm not sure for a reason, but 'did the localization team mess up?' will be the natural first question anyone asks because of the nature of their job. No one logical believes japanese writers are perfect when there's alot of media from japan that sucks.

Edited April 21, 2016 by maninbluejumpsuit

[Medeus]

I clearly said 'I'm not sure'.

You should know why it's a common assumption after the amount of media that gets changed to make something more palatable for western audience, even at the cost of story quality, or otherwise. It's sorta their job. I don't see how potentially incorrectly blaming the original writers makes this any better. You'd probably get on my case if I were to say it was the original writers' fault when it is the localization's issue had the situation been reversed.

Again, I said I'm not sure for a reason, but 'did the localization team mess up?' will be the natural first question anyone asks because of the nature of their job. No one logical believes japanese writers are perfect when there's alot of media from japan that sucks.

Or you could consider both the original writers and localization and then judge which is responsible based on actual research instead of scapegoating one based on false accusations.

[nordopolica]

You'd probably get on my case if I were to say it was the original writers' fault when it is the localization's issue had the situation been reversed.

Thane? Get on someone's case for criticising the writers of Fates?

You must be new here.

[Xenomata]

I don't feel the need to repeat the "kids are ok, but they are shoehorned in" argument so many others have given. Awakening kinda gave a good excuse for there being kids, but it wasn't that good an excuse.

However, I will say that they should not pull another Asugi, Caeldori, or Rhajat. Rhajat especially does not feel like she should be Hayato's kid whatsoever, but just the idea of basically having units from past games back again is kinda... what would it be, lazy? Fan servicy?

[Rezzy]

I don't feel the need to repeat the "kids are ok, but they are shoehorned in" argument so many others have given. Awakening kinda gave a good excuse for there being kids, but it wasn't that good an excuse.

However, I will say that they should not pull another Asugi, Caeldori, or Rhajat. Rhajat especially does not feel like she should be Hayato's kid whatsoever, but just the idea of basically having units from past games back again is kinda... what would it be, lazy? Fan servicy?

I don't mind having the actual character come back, like the Pegasus Sisters in Gaiden or Odin, Selena, and Laslow, as long as they do it right. Keeping key plot info in the prequel DLC was annoying, but otherwise, they're okay. I don't like having carbon copies with no real reason for being there, like Asugi, Caeldori, or Rhajat.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I really do not give a fuck one way or the other about kid units. I can take em or leave em.

I clearly said 'I'm not sure'.

You should know why it's a common assumption after the amount of media that gets changed to make something more palatable for western audience, even at the cost of story quality, or otherwise. It's sorta their job. I don't see how potentially incorrectly blaming the original writers makes this any better. You'd probably get on my case if I were to say it was the original writers' fault when it is the localization's issue had the situation been reversed.

Again, I said I'm not sure for a reason, but 'did the localization team mess up?' will be the natural first question anyone asks because of the nature of their job. No one logical believes japanese writers are perfect when there's alot of media from japan that sucks.

Dude. The kid units were explained the exact same way in the Japanese version of the game. Like honestly. Localization didnt do squat here to change it from its original form.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Loki Laufeyson

[nordopolica]

I don't mind having the actual character come back, like the Pegasus Sisters in Gaiden or Odin, Selena, and Laslow, as long as they do it right. Keeping key plot info in the prequel DLC was annoying, but otherwise, they're okay. I don't like having carbon copies with no real reason for being there, like Asugi, Caeldori, or Rhajat.

I feel sort of the same way, even though I'd rather they not come back at all, but I definitely agree on the Awakening adults -> Fates children deal. Even though I'm ambivalent about the children as a whole, I can't help feeling a little sad that they sacrificed the opportunity to have brand new designs and characters in favour of these carbon copies that serve absolutely no purpose other than to function as a very fleeting novelty. Saizo, Hayato and Subaki really get the short end of the stick; imagining who their kids could have been is way better.

[maninbluejumpsuit]

Or you could consider both the original writers and localization and then judge which is responsible based on actual research instead of scapegoating one based on false accusations.

What part of 'not sure if the blame is on the localization team alone or what' is not english to you? How does one scapegoat someone without making a definite claim? That very statement implies the possibility that it isn't their fault. Of course I'm not going to speak in absolutes if I'm not 100% sure of the facts.

If I literally said 'I blame the localization team for the writing', then you'd have a case against me, but I know better than to make a claim that I'm not 100% on, which is why the first two words of my actual statement was 'not sure'

So I ask again, what about my first statement was spoken as an absolute? Nothing? Good.

Edited April 22, 2016 by maninbluejumpsuit

[Medeus]

What part of 'not sure if the blame is on the localization team alone or what' is not english to you? How does one scapegoat someone without making a definite claim? That very statement implies the possibility that it isn't their fault. Of course I'm not going to speak in absolutes if I'm not 100% sure of the facts.

If I literally said 'I blame the localization team for the writing', then you'd have a case against me, but I know better than to make a claim that I'm not 100% on.

So I ask again, what about my first statement was spoken as an absolute? Nothing? Good.

Except that wasn't the statement I was referring to. What I meant was that you can't let your first question or accusation be "did the localization mess it up" because it basically ignores a major player in the writing of the story. As you said, Japanese writers do mess up, and they should be considered for potential criticism as a result since they can be responsible. So initially focusing criticism on the localization is flawed because both parties can be potentially at fault, and it's important to research what went wrong first before trying to place blame on any one particular party.

Nonetheless, this conversation is getting off track, so I'll drop it past this point.

[Xenomata]

I don't mind having the actual character come back, like the Pegasus Sisters in Gaiden or Odin, Selena, and Laslow, as long as they do it right. Keeping key plot info in the prequel DLC was annoying, but otherwise, they're okay. I don't like having carbon copies with no real reason for being there, like Asugi, Caeldori, or Rhajat.

Yeah I didn't word that correctly. I'm okay with having the same character come back, as the Awakening trio do. It gives a chance to improve on their character and let them grow as people. But carbon copies aren't okay. Nothing is improved on, and opportunities to have a child who is the polar opposite of Hayato (a grown man at age 15 perhaps?) are lost on having Avatarsexual 2.0.

[Roflolxp54]

As forced as the lore behind the children characters are, hearing the same song and dance just gets boring so to me, children characters are just more story units to recruit.

I don't mind that they come back or not in the next FE game but collecting supports for them is annoying, not to mention that they better make it so that the avatar unit can pick whoever s/he wants without guaranteeing that a kid gets killed off.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Roflolxp54

[nhaer042]

I don't mind that they come back or not in the next FE game but collecting supports for them is annoying, not to mention that they better make it so that the avatar unit can pick whoever s/he wants without guaranteeing that a kid gets killed off.

This. That was easily the most irritating thing about pairing people up. I don't know if that was on purpose or an accidental oversight but it's super annoying especially when you don't have a lot of female Corrinsexuals to pair MCorrin up with.

[Roflolxp54]

This. That was easily the most irritating thing about pairing people up. I don't know if that was on purpose or an accidental oversight but it's super annoying especially when you don't have a lot of female Corrinsexuals to pair MCorrin up with.

Heck, assuming the player is on Revelation route, male Corrin can't get all possible regular classes without needing a specific talent and marrying one specific person if he wants to recruit all kids on top of that. (He HAS to have Oni Savage as his Talent and MUST marry Midori if he wants all possible classes he can access in the game AND not kill off one of the child units. He can go Apothecary talent and marry Rinkah to have full class access but he'll have to off a kid.)

Besides the gay pairing, the only way female Corrin can miss out on a kid is if Azura is left single once the pairings have been done and female Corrin already married a "fertile" guy. (And female Corrin can get full class access without worry since they're all available to her via Friendship Seals and the appropriate female A-supports).

[Rezzy]

Heck, assuming the player is on Revelation route, male Corrin can't get all possible regular classes without needing a specific talent and marrying one specific person if he wants to recruit all kids on top of that. (He HAS to have Oni Savage as his Talent and MUST marry Midori if he wants all possible classes he can access in the game AND not kill off one of the child units. He can go Apothecary talent and marry Rinkah to have full class access but he'll have to off a kid.)

Besides the gay pairing, the only way female Corrin can miss out on a kid is if Azura is left single once the pairings have been done and female Corrin already married a "fertile" guy. (And female Corrin can get full class access without worry since they're all available to her via Friendship Seals and the appropriate female A-supports).

The guys really got screwed on the whole Fates mating game. It would have been nice if you could use the Friendship Seal with any A support, instead of just same sexers. They should have let Jakob marry Flora and Ryoma Scarlet, to make it possible to marry anyone you want.

[garrisoncade_3576]

I really hope that the next generation doesn't recycle characters. For example, making a Reina reincarnation and naming her Erina.

Also, I really want to know.

Why does Rhajat look like Tharja? Did Tharja abandoned Hayato when he was a child?

Why does Caeldori look like Cordelia? Are Subaki and Selena actually cousins?

Why does Asugi look like Gaius? Is Saizo the Fourth related to Gaius?

Edited April 22, 2016 by Smog

[Rezzy]

I really hope that the next generation doesn't recycle characters. For example, making a Reina reincarnation and naming her Erina.

Also, I really want to know.

Why does Rhajat look like Tharja? Did Tharja abandoned Hayato when he was a child?

Why does Caeldori look like Cordelia? Are Subaki and Selena actually cousins?

Why does Asugi look like Gaius? Is Saizo the Fourth related to Gaius?

1. Probably

2. Selena is Caeldori's canon mother.

3. Saizo IV was Gaius. He fed Saizo V nothing but candy, and that's why he hates it now.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Rezzy

[vanguard333]

I think there shouldn't be 2nd generation units for some time, unless they're well-implemented like in FE4, but even then I think there needs to be a game without them before then. 2nd generation units were badly included in Fates, potentially took time and effort that could have been put elsewhere (such as making Garon a decent villain), and those same 2nd gen units could have instead been 1st gen units in a future FE game. For example; I liked the idea behind Sophie: an optimistic cavalry unit who doesn't get along with her horse could've been great, but it was tarnished by the overall lack of effort put into 2nd gen units among other things that might not have occurred if they saved some of the ideas behind the 2nd units of FE Fates for 1st gen units of a future FE game. Now if they use the idea behind Sophie for a 1st gen unit in another FE game, the result will be Selena, Laslow and Odin all over again. I think that, unless they have it extremely well implemented, 2nd gen units should not return.

[Rezzy]

I think there shouldn't be 2nd generation units for some time, unless they're well-implemented like in FE4, but even then I think there needs to be a game without them before then. 2nd generation units were badly included in Fates, potentially took time and effort that could have been put elsewhere (such as making Garon a decent villain), and those same 2nd gen units could have instead been 1st gen units in a future FE game. For example; I liked the idea behind Sophie: an optimistic cavalry unit who doesn't get along with her horse could've been great, but it was tarnished by the overall lack of effort put into 2nd gen units among other things that might not have occurred if they saved some of the ideas behind the 2nd units of FE Fates for 1st gen units of a future FE game. Now if they use the idea behind Sophie for a 1st gen unit in another FE game, the result will be Selena, Laslow and Odin all over again. I think that, unless they have it extremely well implemented, 2nd gen units should not return.

The problem with Gen 2 units in Fates is that they all essentially have no backstory. They all have the same "I was raised in the baby realm over the course of a couple days." One of the major ways to flesh out characters in supports is to explore their backstories. Since that can't really be done here, many of the Gen 2 units seem one dimensional and fall flat.

[paladin21]

I think children should have a more limited arrange of possible parents (except the avatar's kids), so there'd be no way crazy matches like Azama-Sakura could happen (after seeing their support, I think Sakura should get negative support effects from him!). That'd make more sense from a psychological perspective, if men can support up to three other men, being able to support three times as many women seems awkward (same with women). Evening out the supports for either sex would actually increase the choices of borrowed classes (in birthright Sakura can only get Hana's class and Saizo Subaki's, just because they already have the other ones). Also, it there are less possible parents for a given child, quality of support conversations would rise (unlike the cloned conversations Lucina, Morgan, Shigure and Kana have with their siblings and just any child with their variable parent). It would allow for more unique looks for the children (dark skinned, different eye color...)

I also think that granting a kid to characters regardless of their sex (maybe not all of them), could make some interesting siblings conversations as well.

It'd be nice if the kid could have conversations with their main parent A+ support, like a godparent-godchild conversation, and the kids inheriting their parents classes and one or two of their godparent's skills.

Too many wishes I guess.

[nhaer042]

I also think that granting a kid to characters regardless of their sex (maybe not all of them), could make some interesting siblings conversations as well.

It'd be nice if the kid could have conversations with their main parent A+ support, like a godparent-godchild conversation, and the kids inheriting their parents classes and one or two of their godparent's skills.

Too many wishes I guess.

I could get behind these. Letting both male and female characters have kids would certainly be interesting.

[Volo]

The more I think about it, the more I wouldn't mind if children were included in a more limited way... Err what I mean is: only the main/limited number of characters have children. For example, take Kana and Shigure. With only two child characters to work with, I think the writers could have more easily worked them into the story. (For example, Shigure's paralogue had a lot of potential and could have been tied in even more.)

Idk I'm just sort of spitballing here.

I really hope that the next generation doesn't recycle characters.

Unpopular opinion but: I hope they do. I really really liked seeing Odin, Selena, and Laslow because of how they were worked into the story. I liked these characters in Awakening and they improved them even further with supports. They're so much more mature and complex now than they were in Awakening.

(Don't care for Rhajat, Asugi, or Caeldori though - except in Caeldori's case they didn't really make these characters more complex or interesting. I guess I concede that I wouldn't like recycling if it were implemented this way.)

Plus, who wouldn't want to see their faves come back? If I got to play Oboro or Midori in the next FE I would be gushing.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Volo

[paladin21]

I could get behind these. Letting both male and female characters have kids would certainly be interesting.

Well, it's a thing I missed from certain supports, like Tsubaki-Shigure, where nobody mentions perfection, unlike any other support Subaki has, and, given the backstory of the support, it could be easily added, making the character more consistent.

If Shigure had said that without the final painting, the exhibit wouldn't be perfect, the support would have been perfectly synced with Subaki's as well.