Smash 4, Character Discussion Revised (#35 Pikachu)

[General Horace]

ike's fair is pretty broken

everything really has been said already though. His recovery can fuck him sometimes.

[Jedi]

ike's fair is pretty broken

everything really has been said already though. His recovery can fuck him sometimes.

And boy do I hate using that recovery sometimes, especially against Marth.

[Clarinets]

His recovery can fuck him sometimes.

I gimped an Ike with the projectile from Kirby's Up B once.

[Jedi]

I gimped an Ike with the projectile from Kirby's Up B once.

This would make me so angry hahaha.

Also if anyone has questions about Ike, I may be able to answer since he's like one of the few characters in this game I've used enough to the point where I know them fairly well all around.

[Raguna]

I'll just say that his recovery can spike down pretty much any opponent down to a KO if your positioning and your opponents line up well for it without causing yourself to SD. Doesn't happen often since those knowing of Ike's capabilities tend to be careful to be right at the ledge doing nothing. You could also try being cool if you feel like the loss is worth it especially if you have the lead and you're close to death from basically any attack your opponent has.

This would make me so angry hahaha.

Also if anyone has questions about Ike, I may be able to answer since he's like one of the few characters in this game I've used enough to the point where I know them fairly well all around.

I'll ask since I'm not into the competitive scene as much, maybe you said so before but I'm curious as to who is best and worst matchup are in your opinion anyway. Like who does he punish the best against and who gives him the most trouble?

[euklyd]

EDIT for clarity: imo ike is mid-tier because he has definite strong points in his spacing and grab game, as well as raw kill power, which a lot of bottom/low tiers simply lack

I can go into this further but I think jedi is gonna cover a lot of it in his post

edit2: man in retrospect this is p useless

I'd add more but I'd rather talk about the top tier mus with jedi

Edited June 25, 2016 by Euklyd

[Lightcosmo]

Well, Ike has a pretty decent jab. Pretty quick and good strength.

His dash attack is surprisingly effective.

Question: what is Ike's go-to throw? His throws don't seem to combo so well.

But maybe im just doing something wrong.

[Raguna]

Well, Ike has a pretty decent jab. Pretty quick and good strength.

His dash attack is surprisingly effective.

Question: what is Ike's go-to throw? His throws don't seem to combo so well.

But maybe im just doing something wrong.

They combo at early percents, my friend. You grab and either go up and proceed with an aether or you go down and hit the opponent with a forward air. At high percents, you can even use down throw to KO since his up throw has the least knockback for it.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Raguna

[Lightcosmo]

They combo at early percents, my friend. You grab and either go up and proceed with an aether or you go down and hit the opponent with a forward air. At high percents, you can even use down throw to KO since his up throw has the least knockback for it.

Wow, just tried it and your right! Thanks a lot!

It should have been obvious though.

Is there any other reliable techs for Ike?

[Jedi]

His best combo throw is up throw, which goes right into fair at a good bit or you can bait with uair or use nair too, fthrow and bthrow can occasionally be followed up with a dash attack. - Late

I'll ask since I'm not into the competitive scene as much, maybe you said so before but I'm curious as to who is best and worst matchup are in your opinion anyway. Like who does he punish the best against and who gives him the most trouble?

Matchups, alright I may be in the scene but for some reason I don't think of this much I'll answer to the best of my ability and from my own experiences, Ike basically excels against characters who don't have very safe approaching options, or safe options in general, these are my personal opinions, I don't have super amounts of experience with ALL of these Mu's namely Fox but I can at least talk a little about it.

Out of the top echelon though who I refer to as, Sheik, Cloud, Diddy, Sonic, Rosalina, Mario, Fox, Ryu, ZSS and Pikachu

I think Ike does fairly well against ZSS, because a whiffed grab is a huge punish opportunity, and Ike partly lives for that, and while she's fast, she has a bit more of an abusable moveset to fight against than most of the other top dogs, she can still get her bread and butter though if the Ike is too slow on the uptake or messes up.

Rosalina, this MU is frustrating somewhat to both camps, because an advantageous situation is very easy for both sides to get, Rosalina starts getting in Ike's grill or she spaces around him with her really good moves and Luma and he's gonna have a tough time, but Luma can be swatted away super easily by Ike to the point where if Rosalina isn't careful an Ike will be willing to trade a hit with her just to get rid of Luma and press his advantage, Rosalina is a large target and light. Ike loves large and light targets, and without Luma, Rosalina's threat level decreases a fair margin but shouldn't be underestimated. Rosalina still has her amazing aerials which will juggle Ike to the moon and back, and she can just gimp him with ease, however HER recovery is also easily edgeguardable at points, even eruption can catch it if you are frame perfect. There is alot more to this matchup but I'd actually say its decently equal with maybe Rosalina having somewhat of an edge. Luma's existence also hampers his solid grab game, but without Luma, he can just go to his traditional bread and butter, for those... 8 seconds.

Ryu can combo Ike heavily for days on end, but he has to get in first against a giant sword, and this is why I view Ryu/Ike being near 50/50 probably around 45/55 in Ryu's favor, they both have huge advantages over each other in different respects as well as having a similar weight class and speed, however, Ryu has a huge eff you button in terms of a carelessly approaching Ike and that is, Focus Attack, Ryu can gauge a situation against Ike with this move, although if Ryu uses it poorly, Ike can just abuse him with a grab or his only multi hit attack, his jab. Ryu also has his hadouken's to give Ike a little bit of ranged trouble, but unlike most its manageable, but don't be tricked into a forced approach, Ryu wants you to get close. Ike can't utilize Ryu's main weakness which is running away from him, but ragnell is a good buffer between you and your fellow headband warrior. An Ike shouldn't get too overzealous though, Ryu can activate Focus Attack in quite a number of ways and use it as a movement option/mixup.

Mario, Everyones least favorite matchup for any character well for the most part, Mario can juggle Ike as easy as it is to flip a burger on a grill, Mario also has annoyingly good approach options, including his fireball, Ike's main and really only huge advantage on Mario is that he out-ranges him significantly at mid-range, Ike has to play this one realllllly safe, and if Mario breaks your line, well prepare to get out with something fast or hope you get a good roll, or else you're eating tons of damage, off stage isn't fun either, considering Mario has his trollish cape and Fludd which both can gimp Ike without Mario even using his solid aerials. I will stress again, Ike can win this one, its just not very fun, and you have to be patient. Ike can at least survive to decently high % and use the rage factor to maybe get a good ko shot on a fairly damage Mario, because Mario is average weight. Also, never challenge Mario at super close quarters in the air or on the ground, you lose because almost every move you have is slower. Also note that he wants grabs just as much as you do.

Cloud, You need to take this into consideration when you face Cloud, he's got your similar range, faster attacks and limit, all while having one of the best running speeds in the game, funnily enough, the closer Ike is to Cloud, the better this match up is for you, unless you get hit by utilt, you need to throw caution to the wind on this one, grab when you can, and punish Cloud's laggier moves if he decides to throw them out, you can challenge his aerials EXCEPT uair, NEVER challenge uair, its like challenging Rosalina's uair or dair Never Do it Cloud and Ike both excel at different types of aerials, Ike's fair for instance is really good at spacing, Cloud's fair is a meteor which is way laggier, Cloud's bair has tons of range and is decently fast and powerful, while Ike's bair is close range but incredibly fast and powerful. Respect Limit, always respect limit, and respect dair when Cloud has Limit, if you get hit by the weak half of dair Cloud can end you with Finishing Touch, also just RESPECT Limit for crying out loud. Off stage, Cloud is very weak to Ike's eruption thanks to his lack of magnet hands unless he has limit, but even then there is a slight frame that you can erupt on his recovery, Ike is at his FULL advantage when Cloud is offstage, press it.

Diddy, Good luck with this one buddy, I personally feel this is Ike's worst top tier match up of the lot, Diddy Kong has so much movement, so much control of the neutral that you need to be supremely on point to even land your best strikes, or even your simplest ones, basically the Mario MU on steroids

Fox, Ouch again, Fox is another really hard matchup for Ike, but slightly more managable than Diddy, Fox has supreme speed and movement options, along with really good kill power, careful movements are needed, Fox being a fast faller does get hit by more of Ike's grab combos than most people and if a Fox can't get their KO moves going, then well Ike with rage can just blast him off, but Fox has so many options its really hard to get around em, but at least he doesn't have an overly annoying projectile that keeps you at bay, lasers can be mildly annoying, but no flinch. Careful off stage, and remember to abuse Fox's weakish recovery as well when you can afford to.

Sonic, This is another prettttty bad situation, your main hope against Sonic's brutal speed, timeout strats and strings/combos, is patience, Sonic wants you to play the game by his rules, you can't let him get into this mindset in the lead. Sonic can camp you, gimp you, outspeed you, combo you, BUT at the price that he's average weight and his more ko centric moves are fairly laggy this is your shot to punish him Ike's best moments against Sonic are when He is overconfident or is being sloppy. Use your sword to your advantage as well, Sonic's fast but his range is mediocre, use this to the upmost when you can and you may get the victory, if you get ahead, keep that lead as long as humanly possible, it'll force Sonic to play by your rules instead of his. Sonic's approach while good is also very predictable, which leads into punishment.

Sheik, Needles hurt, Sheik is most likely going to win nearly every neutral situation you're in with her due to her amazing needles, even after the nerf they still do a good job, Sheik also can gimp Ike reaaaallly easily, but theres a good side, Ike can survive most of Sheik's nongimping kill moves for quite some time, to build up rage and ko her with little effort when you land the attack, Sheik is gonna combo you sure, but you can afford to get hit for a bit or trade. Your main worries should be staying on stage and trying to get into the proper motions to get around her great neutral game and use rage when you can.

Pikachu, I hate this MU, ahem anyways, Pikachu is small, light, fast, deadly and gimps really good, all of that is very bad for Ike, which again you have to play the patience game, I managed to win vs a Pikachu, by spacing him out, and punishing the few frames he has to punish, but Pikachu has all sorts of deadly pressure from alot of different angles and ranges, making this MU a very hard one for Ike to win, unless you can get his light body off the stage with a powerful hit

Matchups outside my opinionated Top 10 to watch out for

Marth - His range is really good and he can gimp you super easily

Mewtwo - Mewtwo has effective tools to zone Ike out and lame the match to victory

Megaman - His existence and play-style is the anti-thesis to Ike

Toon Link - Bombs, Boomerang, fast, good offstage game, juggles fairly well

Metaknight - Reasons similar to Pikachu but lacking a Projectile

A good chunk of Characters with Projectiles - Noticing a theme here?

Side Note - I think Little Mac and Luigi are also semi tough MU's for Ike but I can't confirm very well.

Matchups outside the top 10 to not really fret about

Pretty much anyone with a bad approach/not good defensive options

People with overly laggy moves that can be easily punished

Characters not safe on shield, because Ike then just grabs you

Like I can think of people Ike outright beats but nothing like super specific atm and this post is long enough as is

Edited June 25, 2016 by Glorious Nippon Steel

[shadowofchaos]

I'll just say that his recovery can spike down pretty much any opponent down to a KO if your positioning and your opponents line up well for it without causing yourself to SD.

You mean like this?

Edited June 25, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Jedi]

X.x I'm still surprised at how long I managed to make that post, I hope I didn't silence people haha.

[Batter the Beast]

Matchups outside my opinionated Top 10 to watch out for

Mewtwo - Mewtwo has effective tools to zone Ike out and lame the match to victory

Megaman - His existence and play-style is the anti-thesis to Ike

Metaknight - Reasons similar to Pikachu but lacking a Projectile

I can expand on these

[spoiler=Ike vs Mewtwo]Ike wants to keep Mewtwo out so he doesn't have to deal with dtilt, nair, and fair, all of which come out quick and are good combo starters. Unfortunately, Mewtwo is just fine with being at long range since Ike can't really respond to his neutral B all that well, especially if the Mewtwo player mixes up his timing and charges. Mewtwo also has no problem going deep to intercept Ike's side B recovery, and bair is a pretty safe move to beat it. Ike's up B is a little harder for Mewtwo to interrupt, but a charged shadow ball will ruin Ike's day if he tries it. Ike's saving graces in this MU are a frame 4 jab, which is faster than any of Mewtwo's moves, and the fact that Mewtwo is the 2nd lightest character so a reckless Mewtwo player will get KOd pretty early if they try to approach too often.

[spoiler=Ike vs Megaman]Ouch. This is really frustrating for Ike, since he hates projectiles and Megaman is all projectile. Ike is practically forced to go in, which is exactly what Megaman wants because of his strong punish game. Ike will also have a hard time with jump ins because not only can Megaman punish the bad landings that he can force, but he also has a frame 4 bair, which is 3 frames quicker than Ike's fastest aerial. In terms of interrupting Ike's recovery, Megaman is one of the easiest at doing that. Ike's side B can be interrupted with a bair, or an fsmash if the Ike is in the right spot. Ike's up B is even easier to interrupt, as Megaman can just jump above the sword and time his dair properly, or just fsmash Ike. Ike's saving grace in this MU is that Megaman will sometimes have difficulty KOing, so he can try to abuse rage and get a somewhat early stock off Megaman.

[spoiler=Ike vs Metaknight]This one is even I'd say. Ike is combo food for MK but MK no longer can chain up airs into up B for the stock. Ike is generally difficult and frustrating to approach, and MK is a character dependent on his approach game. A patient Ike player can really keep an MK out, but a crafty MK player can bait out Ike's somewhat endlag heavy moves and run in for the punish, as his dash game is stellar. Ike doesn't have a hard time KOing MK since MK is so light, while MK will likely have to go deep offstage to KO Ike or get a read with up B. MK doesn't really have a way to intercept Ike's up B, so that's generally the safest bet for the Ike player.

[Anacybele]

I wonder if the thread title will attract a certain member.

Nice try, SOC, but I already participated in the Ike discussion from the previous thread. No need to do it twice. lol So I've kinda mostly just ignored this thread. :P At least until Luigi shows up, because I don't think he got a chance in the first thread.

(though technically since I'm posting here now, I guess it DID kinda attract me. lol)

[Jedi]

From the heavy swinging Ike we go to the Balloon Pokemon herself. (Side Note Batter's MU data is helpful for Ike's in those MU's he talked more about than I did)

Frame Data and all those good things

Where do I even begin, anyways, Puff retains her aerial based moveset, with her very meh (at best) ground game, with some of her old solid aerials remaining, however her throws don't act like they do in Melee setting up Rest potential, and speaking of Rest, landing it in this game can get you punished even if you KO with it, unless you're in like Doubles or something (Where I have actually seen some mild Puff success).

She has barely any safe moves to throw out, and shield utterly stops her, the multiple air dodges also once again mess up her aerial combo game, in theory she should be a fairly solid character (And by in theory I mean someone who focuses on a fairly aggro offstage gimp game with some cool tools), but in practice she ends up being one of the weakest, still has some troll potential, but overall she's just not that good, she packs somewhat of a punch, but most of the cast outranges or outprioritizes her to absurd levels, she may have some good matchups somewhere in this decently balanced cast, but if she does they are very few and far between. She also gets ko'd by a soft breeze.

Pound hits shields fairly well, but thats most of the shield pressure she has, her recovery (her jumps not the bad up B) is good, she has decent air mobility, and her offstage game is alright, but those are her main strengths. Also infamously she has not received a single buff or nerf (Because nerfs happen even to bad characters when they don't need em) throughout the entirety of Smash 4's run.

Opinions on the Puffball?

Edited June 27, 2016 by Glorious Nippon Steel

[MrStardustRicon]

She's bad, but at least she's fun.

[Jedi]

Most success I've seen with Puff in any sort of competitive setting (In Smash 4) is doubles lol

Edited June 27, 2016 by Glorious Nippon Steel

[Raguna]

Hmmm, can't contribute so much but she definitely has to rely on her aerials and side b to get anywhere with people along with a bunch of feint air dodges to lure the enemy to miss so she can capitalize on it, but other than that can't think on much. Does anyone even use her up B? It can get outranged real bad and it takes just enough time that people with devastating but slow fsmashes like Ike and Bowser can wreck her.

In all honesty, I'd say she's pretty much the bottom of the barrel in Smash 4. I sometimes try imagining a Puff VS Ganon battle and despite having the advantage off stage, Ganon can easily get her down with his powerful moves.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Raguna

[Shin]

Jigg's main problem is that she just doesn't work. Most of her moves have really short range and almost all of her ground moves are either laggy or ineffective. She dies really easily and has issues KOing. She can get up to some offstage stuff and her airgame (well, fair and bair) isn't horrible. No combos, no real follow ups or reliable kill options means she's pretty horrible.

Which obviously means she's one of my favourites, as sucky as she is, there's something satisfying at playing the failure balloon!

[Comet]

It's not that she really loses to shield since fair and bair are safe, pound is reddit material, and jabs can give safe pressure. Puff's main problem is that she has to jump to get around in a game where being above the otber person is terrible. This is worsened by the fact that her aerials are barely not good enough to effectively create a wall of pain. Even when she jumps, she's still slower than guys like Sheik too. Her recovery isn't as great as it seems since footstools kill her much like Yoshi.

She does have some points that make her not as much of a rotting bag of garbage that's been sitting in a dark alley for nine and a half years. Her aerials deal solid damage and combo. Fair actually combos into rest and has setups from daor too. Crouch is a decent tool to let Puff wait for reactions in a different way than most characters can. Her f smash is insanely strong, and her up smash I find is slightly underused since it's safe on shield. Up tilt is okay when you're in a place where you can hit with it (this will happen every time Hailey's Comet makes a full rotation). Jabs are surprisingly good for stringing stuff together in tandem with fair. Pound lets her stall her fall so she can hopefully hit the ground without being punished (she should still be hit anyway). Of course, she has a decent gimping game as well.

[Falaflame]

Most of what I said in the other thread still applies.

Poof has a completely one-dimensional playstyle and will more often than not be telegraphed. Also having no real setups and literally 0 KO confirms doesn't help in the slightest. Also dying to shield break is hilarious.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Falaflame

[Crazycolorz5]

Jigglypuff as a surprisingly not-horrible matchup against Rosalina.

The is mostly due to the fact that she likes to approach from the upper-forward diagonal, where Rosalina has trouble covering. If Jigglypuff is sticking out a bair (as she is wont to do), that'll go through all of luma's hitboxes (item priority), and likely get the hitbox extended by it. The only ways I can reliably cover that approach option is if I read it and do a turnaround sh bair (probably the best way), sh fair (lots of endlag), or upsmash (probably 2nd best way, but luma is still in front and probably will get hit if Jigglypuff is spacing right). She also had the air speed (and good air dodge) to make jugging her non-trivial. I won't say she gets out of them for free, but it's not easy because I can't commit to a jump very early or I just get outmaneuvered in the air. Finally, being light and large, I'm a big target for getting read by a rest, and I die early to it. That said, if she does miss it, Luma's fsmash will wreck her. Though at low %'s, there's not much I can do to her; maybe just a fully charged usmash. I'd say it's somewhere between 55-45 Rosa and 60-40 Rosa.

So yeah, I'd probably go Palutena in this matchup. Jigglypuff doesn't have any options against bair. Especially since she likes to approach from that angle. She can't challenge it, but if she can't, then she can't get in. The only saving grace for her is that she gets out of all of my dthrow combos at mid percents, but, like, she also dies super early to my really hard smash attacks, and a usmash catches an aerial approach. I'd say the MU is 70-30 at WORST for Palutena.

[Elieson]

Even as Mac, I don't have too much trouble dealing with Puff. Her GimpGame is all she's got. Even her SmashBall is really pathetic.

Comet's right about her F-smash being way more powerful than it lets on. Its range is tiny but it hits pretty dang hard.

[Zera]

I don't play Jigglypuff but... shouldn't Up B combo into Down B for a free KO?

[Comet]

you can mash out of sing and punish puff for it unless you she lands it and grabs the ledge immediately...which never happens.