Does Ike actually have any character flaws?

[DarkDestr0yer61]

Wait I thought the point of FE7!Zephiel is he was overall a good, talented person who literally just wanted his family to live happily together and unfortunate circumstances caused him to go crazy?

Basically what I'm saying is Zephiel in FE7 never struck me as bratty at all.

I didn't type it out properly, when he grows up, he becomes a bratty piece of shit (ungrateful that Hector and friends saved his life as a child and has Hector murdered)

At least that is how I interpreted it.

Edited August 9, 2016 by DarkDestr0yer61

[Magical Glace]

I didn't type it out properly, when he grows up, he becomes a bratty piece of shit (ungrateful that Hector and friends saved his life as a child and has Hector murdered)

At least that is how I interpreted it.

So Jaffar is clairvoyant now? He had no means of knowing that he'd turn out like that during Battle Before Dawn.

[Rezzy]

I mean, I don't think you need to change your thinking process, Rezzy. But I think there is a difference in wishing death on Sanaki, a girl who is a bit bratty, but is overall a good person, rather than... let's say... wishing Jaffar murdered Zephiel, a kid who does grow up being a bratty piece of shit and is not a good person.

My main beef with Sanaki being bratty is that she's allegedly supposed to be on our side. If she was a villain with the same characteristics, then we'd be able to hate her, not be angry about the twerp being on our side.

Wait I thought the point of FE7!Zephiel is he was overall a good, talented person who literally just wanted his family to live happily together and unfortunate circumstances caused him to go crazy?

Basically what I'm saying is Zephiel in FE7 never struck me as bratty at all.

Also, Rezzy, throwing Sanaki off the boat is a bad decision no matter how you look at it. It would make the group enemies of the entire Begnion Empire, the exact opposite of what they wanted.

Hypothetically, Ike could have thrown Sanaki overboard before her retainers found her. The Greil Mercenaries could have easily pinned the blame on the enemy. Sdaly, Ike is not more clairvoyant than Jaffar. My original post about Ike throwing her overboard was sarcasm, but I still dislike Sanaki.

Oh yes. Ion certainly was very likable. I had my doubts about a character that either feints or gets kidnapped twice a day but Ion's just to nice a kid to dislike.

But I wouldn't sell Sanaki short either. She just doesn't have the bagage that more or less forces Ion to think he needs to be super kind for him to have value and the unofficial manga states that the Ion who didn't have that bagage was...kind of a complete and utter monster actually. The game does kinda do that as well when you take a look at Sync.

I wouldn't say the power lies with the Senators instead of Sanaki. That Lekain wants Sanaki removed and that he begrudges the activities of her and Sephiran does indicate they are a massive thorn in their side. Sanaki also has the loyalty of both the army and the people. The central army defects to her the moment she shows up and Sephiran has little problems arranging a revolution against the senate in her name. Once Sanaki joins the Begnion army stops being a foe as the Senate starts relying more on Daien.I also don't think her stance has anything to do with the war. The senators were discovered to be behind the genocide so Tibarn would be out for blood no matter what Sanaki did or didn't do, she was probably the source of what little good will there still was between Begnion and the Laguz.

I agree with Sunwoo in that Sanaki is far nicer then she has any reason to be. I find Sanaki such a good kid ruler because she's both a good ruler while also clearly still being a child.

Yeah, Ion and his spoilery friends would be fun to discuss more in depth, but I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't had a chance to play Abyss, yet. I agree with you, though.

I take Sanaki as she is, she could have been worse, but she's not to a level that redeems her for me.

On a related note, I don't really like Tiburn in RD, since he seems motivated only by revenge, and not the best interests of his people.

Again -- I don't care whether you like Sanaki or not. But I find it highly disturbing that you'd wish death upon a fictional ten-year-old girl. Even if she's fictional, wishing death upon characters especially if they haven't done anything actually wrong (and by wrong I mean like mass murder wrong) is disturbing. And with you having kids of your own, I would think you'd be more understanding and realize that Sanaki is actually nowhere near as bad as she could've been as a brat.

Don't worry, I'm sorry if you find it disturbing, but wishing ill on fictional characters is cathartic, and by no means reflects how people act in the real world. I'm anti-death penalty, but I still want to see characters I dislike die in fiction. If a character is portrayed in fiction, they are fair game for assessment. I can run the gamut from loving them to despising them. Age is not a boundary in that case.

I just don't find the argument that a character could be worse than they are a good reason to like them.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Rezzy

[Sunwoo]

Don't worry, I'm sorry if you find it disturbing, but wishing ill on fictional characters is cathartic, and by no means reflects how people act in the real world. I'm anti-death penalty, but I still want to see characters I dislike die in fiction. If a character is portrayed in fiction, they are fair game for assessment. I can run the gamut from loving them to despising them. Age is not a boundary in that case.

I disagree that wishing ill on fictional characters doesn't reflect on how people act in the real world. Death isn't a joke, and is far more of a sensitive topic to some people than others already. It's one of the worst things a person can wish on another, and even if said "person" is fictional it still shows the capacity for that much hatred for anything. And once you let yourself fall into that hatred, it can be very hard to get out of that cycle. And people can say "I'm better than that," but that doesn't necessarily mean they are.

[DarkDestr0yer61]

So Jaffar is clairvoyant now? He had no means of knowing that he'd turn out like that during Battle Before Dawn.

I think you are reading way too much into what I am saying. I am not saying he should have died as a kid nor should Jaffar have known that this would happen. The example I used comparing Sanaki to Zephiel isn't a good one.

[Magical Glace]

Hypothetically, Ike could have thrown Sanaki overboard before her retainers found her. The Greil Mercenaries could have easily pinned the blame on the enemy. Sdaly, Ike is not more clairvoyant than Jaffar. My original post about Ike throwing her overboard was sarcasm, but I still dislike Sanaki.

Oh, it was a joke? I don't really agree with your reasons to dislike Sanaki, but I also don't really mind jokes about killing fictional characters. I make jokes like that at Tharja's expanse quite a bit, though killing Tharja wouldn't have quite the in-universe impact as Sanaki.

I think you are reading way too much into what I am saying. I am not saying he should have died as a kid nor should Jaffar have known that this would happen. The example I used comparing Sanaki to Zephiel isn't a good one.

Alrighty then.

[Rezzy]

I disagree that wishing ill on fictional characters doesn't reflect on how people act in the real world. Death isn't a joke, and is far more of a sensitive topic to some people than others already. It's one of the worst things a person can wish on another, and even if said "person" is fictional it still shows the capacity for that much hatred for anything. And once you let yourself fall into that hatred, it can be very hard to get out of that cycle. And people can say "I'm better than that," but that doesn't necessarily mean they are.

I'll have to politely disagree with you. In video games, death is cheap, and we can mow down people by the hundreds, but that doesn't mean that we're the next mass shooter. It's simply an outlet.

I'm surrounded by death in real life, but personally and professionally. As a physician, it's unavoidable. During my path rotation as a resident, I had to participate on an autopsy on an infant, and it was the hardest things I've ever had to do. Real people get by utmost compassion, and I don't even believe in the death penalty, but in fiction, we can explore our darker natures. I don't think death in general should be off limits for humor, though. It's such a central aspect of life, that you can't walk on egg shells around it forever.

[Anacybele]

Here's the thing tho, Soren DID the planning and commanding, and Elincia was effectively considered the commander of what was left of the Crimean army by everyone else even if she did put him in charge of managing the damn thing, and by that I mean Titania and Soren. Hell, if it wasn't for the BK, I'm almost certain Elincia would've been POR's lord, and I still think it's bullshit the Greil mercs would get ANY reconition outside of Crimea after POR, due to an interesting tidbit Soren mentions in POR about how politics would get their actions swept under the rug. In game, this is used as justification to not have Begnion roflstomp Daein for you, but with Gallia helping out anyway, and Elincia's and Caineighis' dream of Beorc Laguz unity, Ashnard's defeat should've ended with Elincia being seen as a great hero, not Ike, with the exception of the people I mentioned in my first post anyway.

No, no, and no. Sorry, but you're incorrect. Elincia is not a military commander. She just isn't. Soren and Titania just gave Ike advice and support. Ike was made the general of the army and was the one to make the final decisions. It's not BS that the mercs would get recognition and respect outside of Crimea. They got to work alongside laguz from different nations as well as people from Begnion. And not even everyone outside of Crimea knows of them. There's a boss character or two in RD that says he's "never heard of them."

I think you're letting your dislike of this game and Ike blind you.

[Rezzy]

Elincia was the head of state, but Ike was the supreme allied commander of the combined army. Ike lives up to his namesake of Dwight D. Eisenhower of World War Two fame.

Soren and Titania gave valuable strategic and tactical advice, but pretty much every general has advisors.

[NoNameAtAll]

Sorry, but Ike's very much flawed, yet the narrative rarely admonishes him for his flaws. He's kinda like Seliph in that regard.

If you want a damn good example of flaws that are acknowledged and make an impact, look no further than Thracia 776. Leif makes more than a few fuck-ups and it costs him dearly. In one instance, it gets him imprisoned. In another, he ends up having quite a bit of his army wiped out (Not your playable units, but random NPCs) along with one of his advisers. The whole thing for him is growing up and learning what it means to be in charge. Even PoR Ike doesn't have that really happen to him, where he really has to deal with the consequences of his actions.

[blah the Prussian]

Sanaki's awesome, don't know what planet you're on. I like to turn the issue on its head: Sanaki is a child genius, hugely mature for her age, benevolent, and takes the strain of ruling over a huge Empire that she's dragging out of its racist path like a champ. Fortunately, she has a character flaw: as is natural for a child raised to believe she's divine, she's spoiled. I actually think she's one of the most realistic characters in Tellius (besides Ashnard) for this reason.

As for Ike, though, he's okay. He does have legitimate flaws but being rude to Sanaki, an extremely stupid move, is the only one that really gets acknowledged. Shinon and Gatrie are treated as wrong for wanting to leave despite their objections to Ike being tbh quite reasonable. Its also not clear in the narrative what MAKES him grow into a better leader. He doesn't have a moment like Elincia sacrificing Lucia, or Marth deciding to hold back his tears for his people, he just sort of wakes up one morning as a brilliant leader.

[Sasori]

I believe that IS did try to give Ike some flaws. He has his inexperience, there was his little bit in the senate and he does seem to hold a somewhat stereotypical view of nobility.

The problem is that some of his flaws don't have much effect and that the game goes out of its way to present them in a more positive way. His little bit with the senate should be a good way to present Ike a bit tactless and not someone that fits in when discussing politics, but the Senate and Sanaki to a lesser extent where such assholes that Ike walks away as the better man. He gets told off a bit by Nasir, but nothing really comes of it and I got the impression that the scene was meant to show Ike as the ordinary man standing up against the bullying of the nobility.

I do like how they handled his inexperience though. Ike doesn't magically become the great leader of the Greil Mercanaries overnight. He needed Soren and Titania plenty of times and I like how the non Shinon mercenaries where presented in the entire affair. Everyone aside Gatrie accepts him as the leader, but they don't just blindly believe in Ike. Even Boyd who is pretty friendly with Ike has some doubts about Ike being in charge when things get dangerous.

[Luchi]

He does, but they only ever help him. Aka a bog-standard sue trait. So I chose the 2nd option. The game script favours him and the Black Knight so much it's more than a little stomach-churning, when the real focus should have been on Elincia and Ashnard.

[Samias]

Elincia gets about as much focus as Nyna from Shadow Dragon, if not more, and they fulfil more or less the same roles except Elincia becomes more proactive about her own fate and does not have the complicated love affair angle. I feel her character is as fleshed out as it needs to be, and is wonderfully realized in RD part 2 where you see what sacrifices she is willing to make.

The hate for Sanaki is pretty irrational... she is far from a villain. Her seemingly pointless "training exercise" was to test Ike's trustworthiness with a sensitive topic: the emancipation of laguz in Begnion. Knowing full well that the Senate was corrupt, she did her best to find a way to expose their wrongdoings to Ike so she could at least mend relations with the bird tribes. While she only uncovers half of the matter in PoR, she is still trying to reverse a great wrongdoing. She also supplies Ike with her most trustworthy unit of soldiers and finances the campaign into Daein and back to Crimea. Without Sanaki, there is no way Elincia would have found a sympathetic ear in Begnion when we know that Lekain is a complete scumbag. Sure, she is not as nice as Caineghis, but she is also a beorc who has become jaded to the people she is forced to be around.

I greatly enjoyed the narrative of PoR when Shinon and Gatrie up and leave when Ike becomes the new leader of the Greil Mercs. Many of Ike's "victories" over bandits had been close shaves salvaged by the more experienced mercs or even Greil himself. He was in way over his head and with Greil dead, Shinon and Gatrie left to earn the paycheck they felt they rightly deserved as top tier mercenaries. It's the only time the game ever reinforces any consequences of Ike's quick ascension to the leader of the GMs. For gameplay reasons we otherwise never get to see anything come of Ike's transgressions. I do believe he is sufficiently flawed for a Fire Emblem protagonist in PoR. However in RD he is basically a cardboard cutout version of himself who is flawless in every way and no one ever admonishes Ike for jumping headlong into another war aside from one token warning at the start of part 3.