What went wrong with Fates overall story?(Spoilers!)

[NekoKnight]

I don't really consider Birthrout and Conquest a bad ending tbh, due to one line of dialouge in Rev, where Azura points out that Valla will naturally be sealed off in a year. FE wars are usually implied to last about a year after the protagonist starts his journey, and Anakos' plan is foiled at the end of both BirthRout and Conquest even if he isn't killed. Due to Valla being unreachable, and therefore Fates' world being unreachable from Valla, he can't try again, so all three routes are good endings by complete fucking coincidence. Granted, I might be overlooking something, so feel free to ignore this. I know HoF is an alternate continuity BR and CQ, but I haven't actually gone thru them yet, so I can't say they debunk me here or not

If that's true than Azura was the most useless character in Fates. She literally didn't have to do a thing for Anankos to become irrelevant to Fateland. Kamui's role in the story also becomes irrelevant despite being the chosen one.

Actually, isn't there a line in Invisible History that suggests if Kamui chooses wrong (Birthright and Conquest) that the world is fucked?

Edited August 10, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Time the Crestfallen]

They had a winning product with just the personal conflict of Kamui and his families but then they derailed that with an unnecessary greater-scope villain. Sacred Stones might be a good example of a character focused game that doesn't need a lot of world-building to get you invested. Still, world-building only makes things better and there is no rule about character focus and world-building not being able to co-exist.

Unless the world-building is shit that is.

You could probably draw a comparison between Lyon/Garon and Fomortiis/Anankos. Fomortiis is also what I would define as an unnecessary greater scope villain, but it works because he doesn't detract from the main villain whereas Anankos basically infects the whole plot, even on the routes where he doesn't come up at all.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Phillius

[Thane]

I don't really consider Birthrout and Conquest a bad ending tbh, due to one line of dialouge in Rev, where Azura points out that Valla will naturally be sealed off in a year. FE wars are usually implied to last about a year after the protagonist starts his journey, and Anakos' plan is foiled at the end of both BirthRout and Conquest even if he isn't killed. Due to Valla being unreachable, and therefore Fates' world being unreachable from Valla, he can't try again, so all three routes are good endings by complete fucking coincidence. Granted, I might be overlooking something, so feel free to ignore this. I know HoF is an alternate continuity BR and CQ, but I haven't actually gone thru them yet, so I can't say they debunk me here or not

Your explanation is filled with unfounded speculation and maybes. How would we know this was Anankos' only plan? How do we know he can't breach Valla's seal, or stop it from happening in the first place? How would everyone stop Sumeragi who's still running around with the power to blow up entire cities? For all we know Anankos himself might show up because he got bored the day after Garon died, and then he'd be unkillable because at least one brother is dead, which locks the Yato from getting its arbitrary power up.

The fact remains that the big bad is undefeated at the end of Birthright and Conquest, and in Conquest Hoshido is more than likely very, very messed up. I think that's enough to qualify them as bad endings.

[MCProductions]

Your explanation is filled with unfounded speculation and maybes. How would we know this was Anankos' only plan? How do we know he can't breach Valla's seal, or stop it from happening in the first place? How would everyone stop Sumeragi who's still running around with the power to blow up entire cities? For all we know Anankos himself might show up because he got bored the day after Garon died, and then he'd be unkillable because at least one brother is dead, which locks the Yato from getting its arbitrary power up.

The fact remains that the big bad is undefeated at the end of Birthright and Conquest, and in Conquest Hoshido is more than likely very, very messed up. I think that's enough to qualify them as bad endings.

Hence the whole, I may be forgetting something line, so feel free to ignore this. I wasn't expecting to be right here, and hell, part of me hoped I wasn't exactly due to what Neko said, but I just found that random line of dialogue from Azura in Rev so odd, seeing as she basically says "wait a year, and the problem solves itself, but I want revenge, so fuck it, let's kill the bastard"

[Thane]

Hence the whole, I may be forgetting something line, so feel free to ignore this. I wasn't expecting to be right here, and hell, part of me hoped I wasn't exactly due to what Neko said, but I just found that random line of dialogue from Azura in Rev so odd, seeing as she basically says "wait a year, and the problem solves itself, but I want revenge, so fuck it, let's kill the bastard"

If it had gotten Azura to show some emotion in the main story, I would've liked that explanation. It sure beats "I didn't tell you about this because I didn't feel like it, lol".

[Alandrage]

I think the only way to have responded to a script this bad would be to just throw it all out and make a new draft.

[TheWerdna]

I think 4 things are mostly wrong in Fates' story

1. the will to make money, and therefore 3 games, and therefore splitting an already shaky plot in 3 parts + dlc (really, you pay a game and a half, and you still have to get Hidden truths to learn the whole story...)

2. Corrin, he's just stupid, it doesn't make sense that this guy gets to command an army, in war a commander like him would just get his soldiers killed one after the other. And it doesn't make sense that people follow him because he has a 'honest vibe' going, that's first class BS right there. Make the characters actually join you for a real reason, seriously besides princes and attendants I can think of one person who joins you for an actual reason: Shura.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't trust a stranger, a foreign commander just because he has a gentle look. And sure as hell I wouldn't fight and risk my life for him.

3. Also there's another issue in my opinion which is the number of characters, too much, having so many characters results in them having little to no depth, like the non-sense children story, people like Hana, Hayato, Subaki, Camilla, Percy, Sophie who live only of their gimmicks.

So yeah, make one game, half characters, tell a reasonable story for why there are children (I like the mechanics, it gives a lot of replay value to the game) and give reasons for why people go with the protagonist (who souldn't, by the way, be the avatar). And maybe sometimes make people dislike the avatar, it's not illegal you know?

4. Too black and white, Nohr is dark, cold, poor and bad, Hoshido is light, warm, rich and good, Garon/Iago/Hans are evil (I have yet to understand the reasons of Iago's hate btw) and Corrin obviously doesn't get it because he's too stupid (seriously, how do you not get that Garon is evil? HOW?). Was it that hard to make things a bit more 'gray'? Also, I watched Birthright playthroughs and I actually learned more of Nohr from that, than from my own playthrough of Conquest, that's a bit bad if you ask me.

Also, especially for Conquest, moving in the map and not just selecting the place would've helped, I never got the sensation of invading Hoshido. I mean from what I got in-game, Nohr is in west, Hoshido in east, Bottomless Canyon in the middle, everything else I had no idea. (then I looked at the map on the site, but I shouldn't need to do that...)

And I'm not even one who asks too much from the story, I loved Awakening's plot, and from what I read it's considered terrible.

(really, give me a game with Awakening's plot and characters, Fates' weapons system and Conquest's gameplay, I will be a happy man)

This. 100% this.

[NekoKnight]

Unless the world-building is shit that is.

You could probably draw a comparison between Lyon/Garon and Fomortiis/Anankos. Fomortiis is also what I would define as an unnecessary greater scope villain, but it works because he doesn't detract from the main villain whereas Anankos basically infects the whole plot, even on the routes where he doesn't come up at all.

Fomortiis was very much necessary for the plot of Sacred Stones. Lyon starts doing what he does because the Demon King is subtly (and then not so subtly) influencing his behavior. Garon was always a dick so you didn't need him being possessed to push the plot forward.

Fates: Making every other Fire Emblem story better by comparison since 2015.

[TheWerdna]

Hence the whole, I may be forgetting something line, so feel free to ignore this. I wasn't expecting to be right here, and hell, part of me hoped I wasn't exactly due to what Neko said, but I just found that random line of dialogue from Azura in Rev so odd, seeing as she basically says "wait a year, and the problem solves itself, but I want revenge, so fuck it, let's kill the bastard"

Well the problen would only be solved for 10 years, as then Valla would be accessable again. So they would still be screwed.

Also, Heirs of Fate kind of indirectly deals with Anankos being alive in the other routes. It says that the Anankos from the failed Revelations timeline as been going to all of the Birthright/Conquest timelines in the multiverse and destroying them, with it being entirely possible the player's playthroughs are included. Just that the ending seems to kill Anankos is every world (except for successful Revelations, where he dies already) and resets all the destroyed worlds to how they were before he destroyed them because apparently the 4th verse is a massive dues ex machina and can do whatever the writers want it to do.

[Medeus]

1. From what I remember, IS stuck to the first draft pretty rigidly, which is a bad idea in writing. First drafts tend to be flawed because it's mostly getting the general idea down on the paper, and that's why it's usually proofread to help pick out issues that need to be fixed as well as fleshing out certain points. Looking at Fates' story, there are a good number of points in the story that seemed like they could've worked in a later draft, but weren't properly looked over and fleshed out first, which contributed to issues with the general plot.

2. The Avatar character, they can work in stories, but the story goes too far to bend over backwards for Corrin for it to really work. Corrin isn't fully allowed to grow or be wrong, and in a story that's supposed to have the character live with a major decision that results in the deaths of those they care about, the character shouldn't be as stagnant as they are.

3. The story should've been focused more on the personal conflict, making Anankos the ultimate puppetmaster ended up removing a lot of personal agency that the main characters have, and his influence ends up leading to things like Gooron, which makes things even worse in that regard. In a story about the decision between choosing blood or bonds over the other in a war, I feel the personal conflict should've been more at the forefront, but ultimately the use of the "Golden" route meant that the writers had to get an easy target to rally against.

4. Lack of worldbuilding in the main story. One thing I will give other FE stories is that even at their weakest, they usually try to flesh out the world around their stories so that you get a sense of what's going on and how it affects the different countries and characters. Fates' story doesn't give enough depth to the countries and areas that appear in the plot, with them usually serving as a Point A to go through before you get to Point B. The continent itself doesn't even have a name, which is a notable oversight since it gives off a lack of care towards the world you're supposed to be invested in.

5. The three route system, which created issues like plot contrivances and stripping out important information to necessitate buying the other routes. The Bubble Curse is easily the biggest example of this as it's definitely done to make Revelation important because it's the only route that addresses Valla and its involvement in the conflict. However, by doing that, it means at least five characters knew about what was going on and couldn't say anything, meaning they allowed a major conflict to happen and cause unnecessary deaths in the two other routes. It essentially forced the characters to act in a way that doesn't make sense to the player, and bog down the story as a result. Similarly, elements like Takumi's possession, Gooron, and the like are also aspects of the plot that are important in understanding what's going on in both Birthright and Conquest's plot, but are shoved off into the other route(s), so they can't fully stand on their own two feet since pieces that you'd need for that aren't available to you. The plots I feel should've been more self-contained as they need to stand on their own two feet first, you can't make anything good without a strong base, and neither of the three routes really have strong enough bases to hold up the overall plot.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Medeus

[Harvey]

It's not that you can't have multiple route stories and make it work, but Fates felt more like a singular story. The story is "Hoshido and Nohr are at war, and Anankos is behind it." You can make a choice of which side of the conflict you fight on but ultimately the story stays the same. Azura, Lilith, the Rainbow Sage, Garon, Iago, Hans, Zola, two siblings and one of the beast tribes die regardless of your choice. Between Conquest and Birthright, the only real difference is who wins the war and either way, everyone loses because Anankos is still alive. Different flavors to the same Bad End.

Edit: My original point was that the world of Fates is so empty that not enough happens to warrant multiple games. Had the first two routes led to distinct endings, I could see them as different stories.

They had a winning product with just the personal conflict of Kamui and his families but then they derailed that with an unnecessary greater-scope villain. Sacred Stones might be a good example of a character focused game that doesn't need a lot of world-building to get you invested. Still, world-building only makes things better and there is no rule about character focus and world-building not being able to co-exist.

It wasn't a single story and the three games do have their own stories. Its just that the ending is the same for all the paths with only slight changes.

And I personally feel that splitting the paths was intentional simply because they wanted to appeal to two targets which is Hardcore fans and the casual fans and it worked here. Not to mention that you are getting a lot of content by simply playing one game alone.

Again, I agree that the world feels empty, but I don't think or I don't believe that splitting the game and having a similar story had anything to do with the quality of the story imo.

[Just call me AL]

Fates: Making every other Fire Emblem story better by comparison since 2015.

Unless if said Fire Emblem story is Awakening's or Sacred Stones's.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Fomortiis was very much necessary for the plot of Sacred Stones. Lyon starts doing what he does because the Demon King is subtly (and then not so subtly) influencing his behavior. Garon was always a dick so you didn't need him being possessed to push the plot forward.

Fates: Making every other Fire Emblem story better by comparison since 2015.

Really? I always thought Fomortiis could be replaced by some magical maguffin that drives the wielder off the deep end and the plot wouldn't have changed much.

[maninbluejumpsuit]

Yep, Kana is like the unwanted youngest child that they just carry along because he/she has the Yato.

Almost like their parent.

[NekoKnight]

It wasn't a single story and the three games do have their own stories. Its just that the ending is the same for all the paths with only slight changes.

And I personally feel that splitting the paths was intentional simply because they wanted to appeal to two targets which is Hardcore fans and the casual fans and it worked here. Not to mention that you are getting a lot of content by simply playing one game alone.

Again, I agree that the world feels empty, but I don't think or I don't believe that splitting the game and having a similar story had anything to do with the quality of the story imo.

So how do you feel about plot details being absent from some routes requiring you to play the other routes to understand what's going on. The invisible soldiers, Takumi's possession and the hooded man are never explained unless you play Revelation. Those are some examples of the story becoming worse because of the route split.

Really? I always thought Fomortiis could be replaced by some magical maguffin that drives the wielder off the deep end and the plot wouldn't have changed much.

Whether as a sentient being or a simple maguffin, Fomortiis/Dark Stone was needed for the plot. There wouldn't be a motive to destroy the Sacred Stones if not for some force corrupting Prince Lyon. Valla/Anankos could be completely cut from Fates and it wouldn't really change anything in the first two routes.

The idea of a "greater scope" villain is that they create a larger conflict that the one currently present. Conquest + Hoshido is a simple war, and Revelation adds an unnecessary "btw an omnicidal dragon is behind all of this, you should go stop him". There is only one conflict in Sacred Stones and it's fueled exclusively by machinations of Fomortiis.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Whether as a sentient being or a simple maguffin, Fomortiis/Dark Stone was needed for the plot. There wouldn't be a motive to destroy the Sacred Stones if not for some force corrupting Prince Lyon. Valla/Anankos could be completely cut from Fates and it wouldn't really change anything in the first two routes.

The idea of a "greater scope" villain is that they create a larger conflict that the one currently present. Conquest + Hoshido is a simple war, and Revelation adds an unnecessary "btw an omnicidal dragon is behind all of this, you should go stop him". There is only one conflict in Sacred Stones and it's fueled exclusively by machinations of Fomortiis.

That's kind of what I mean though. Fomortiis himself doesn't feel particularly necessary to me, but it still works because it doesn't detract from what Lyon is doing or the main conflict and consistently has a presence throughout the story in the form of manipulating/possessing Lyon. Anankos meanwhile only has real presence on the third route, yet his involvement detracts from every other aspect of the story.

[Harvey]

So how do you feel about plot details being absent from some routes requiring you to play the other routes to understand what's going on. The invisible soldiers, Takumi's possession and the hooded man are never explained unless you play Revelation. Those are some examples of the story becoming worse because of the route split.

Whether as a sentient being or a simple maguffin, Fomortiis/Dark Stone was needed for the plot. There wouldn't be a motive to destroy the Sacred Stones if not for some force corrupting Prince Lyon. Valla/Anankos could be completely cut from Fates and it wouldn't really change anything in the first two routes.

The idea of a "greater scope" villain is that they create a larger conflict that the one currently present. Conquest + Hoshido is a simple war, and Revelation adds an unnecessary "btw an omnicidal dragon is behind all of this, you should go stop him". There is only one conflict in Sacred Stones and it's fueled exclusively by machinations of Fomortiis.

Look, obviously if you want to know the story from the different side of things, you'd have to have a different tale for each path.

Honestly, that really never bothered me too much because I was only curious how the gameplay is affected and well revelation does have a mix bag to that.

Further more, Revelation is more of a DLC path unlike the two paths which are the dedicated ones. There was no reason to have the third path except to explain some plot details further as you stated but really, that's the whole point of DLCs. Optional details that come for a price. Heck even Awakening had character stories that were only explained further if you bought the DLC packs like Owain.

But really, what's the point of complaining about the story being split if the stories in each game itself didn't give so much of depth as how they were suppose to?

[Thane]

Further more, Revelation is more of a DLC path unlike the two paths which are the dedicated ones. There was no reason to have the third path except to explain some plot details further as you stated but really, that's the whole point of DLCs. Optional details that come for a price. Heck even Awakening had character stories that were only explained further if you bought the DLC packs like Owain.

What? Revelation doesn't just "explain some plot details further", it reveals absolutely everything that's driving the story, Birthright and Conquest included. Not only that, but it has the only unambiguously good ending and you get all of the units. It's designed to be the golden path, and it's the same size as the other two paths in terms of chapters.

There's no doubt in my mind that the reason why Revelation is unable to be purchased on its own is because Intelligent Systems knew that it was the definitive version, and not as many people would've been willing to play Birthright or Conquest after having experienced the golden ending. It's also why the two standard paths are so painfully straightforward and silent about Valla and everything surrounding it, only teasing it in Conquest, and why Azura dies in both routes and lives in Revelation, etc. They made sure to incite people to buy it once they had played through another path by promising it would answer all of their questions of the plot.

But really, what's the point of complaining about the story being split if the stories in each game itself didn't give so much of depth as how they were suppose to?

Because the story split is one of the reasons as to why the worldbuilding is insufficient, and why the pacing of all three paths is horrendous.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Thane

[Harvey]

What? Revelation doesn't just "explain some plot details further", it reveals absolutely everything that's driving the story, Birthright and Conquest included. Not only that, but it has the only unambiguously good ending and you get all of the units. It's designed to be the golden path, and it's the same size as the other two paths in terms of chapters.

There's no doubt in my mind that the reason why Revelation is unable to be purchased on its own is because Intelligent Systems knew that it was the definitive version, and not as many people would've been willing to play Birthright or Conquest after having experienced the golden ending. It's also why the two standard paths are so painfully straightforward and silent about Valla and everything surrounding it, only teasing it in Conquest, and why Azura dies in both routes and lives in Revelation, etc. They made sure to incite people to buy it once they had played through another path by promising it would answer all of their questions of the plot.

Because the story split is one of the reasons as to why the worldbuilding is insufficient, and why the pacing of all three paths is horrendous.

Then explain how Zelda Oracle of ages and seasons gets away with it then since you really need those two games inorder to sum up the entire story. Some can argue that the Game Boy Color had technical limits that it forced them to split the game which is false as the GBC is powerful enough that it had tilt sensors that you use to play Kirby Tilt n Tumble. Not to mention how big the worlds of Pokemon Gold and Silver easily fitted the GBC cartridge back then.

But getting back to the argument, First off, Azura never was actually dead in both paths as she simply looks at the player and disappears. So seeing her not die in Revelation makes it less surprising than it truly is intended. Secondly, Of course its reveals a lot but that what makes that game special. its meant to serve fans but NOT the ones who aren't too much into it.

And seriously again, splitting the game in three paths isn't how the story got spoiled because if the story in each game didn't motivate you to get the other game, then the game that you got is to be blamed because its story didn't do enough push to make you want to get the other paths.

Honestly if you ask me, I was fine with the idea of just sticking to Conquest alone. I never got myself motivated to get birthright and revelations for the story because well, Conquest never did that magic to make me want to get Birthright or Revelations in the first place.

If the first half of the story doesn't impress you, then what exactly makes you positive that the later half will.

Now If the game is centered in episodes like how they are doing it in Adventure games (Tales of Monkey Island for example) and made it so that you kinda had to get all the three paths to enjoy just one game because the end in the two paths says "To be continued" and in the end, it left a bad impression, then yes, I would agree that the three paths idea ruined the pacing.

But that's not the problem fates has here because each path follows its own individual story. Birthright wants you to put an end to Ganon and so you do that, Conquest wants you to make Nohr a better kingdom so you do just that and nothing else. Revelation is simply to bring two kingdoms together.

So I repeat again, if the individual story in each path doesn't motivate you enough to get the other paths, then how is splitting up the paths to be blamed for the pacing if that part didn't motivate you enough to get the other two in the first place?

I didn't like a lot in Birthright so I'm honestly fine with the idea of just sticking with Conquest. The reason I bought the other two paths was so to observe the gameplay and map variety those two had to offer and unfortunately, Conquest tops them both.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Harvey

[Lord_Grima]

Then explain how Zelda Oracle of ages and seasons gets away with it then since you really need those two games inorder to sum up the entire story.

The Oracle games each are part the same story line, but instead of breaking it into parts based off one decision and having completely separate story lines(aka. Fates), The Oracle games are more like part 1 and part 2, or one sequels the other.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Lord_Grima

[Alandrage]

I see them more as two separate stories that just happen to be combined.

[BrightBow]

Then explain how Zelda Oracle of ages and seasons gets away with it then since you really need those two games inorder to sum up the entire story. Some can argue that the Game Boy Color had technical limits that it forced them to split the game which is false as the GBC is powerful enough that it had tilt sensors that you use to play Kirby Tilt n Tumble. Not to mention how big the worlds of Pokemon Gold and Silver easily fitted the GBC cartridge back then.

They are entirely different games altogether. The entire world is different, the villain is different and the story is different. The connection between the two games has very little to do with the story and is more about unlocking additional stuff and cameo appearances from NPCs of the other game. And what little connection there is between the stories makes one game the sequel to the other instead of being alternate versions of the same story.

Edited August 11, 2016 by BrightBow

[Thane]

Then explain how Zelda Oracle of ages and seasons gets away with it then since you really need those two games inorder to sum up the entire story.

Apart from what others have mentioned, I need to ask you what your point is. "Another game did it 15 years ago, so that means Fates doing it is okay", is that your logic?

But getting back to the argument, First off, Azura never was actually dead in both paths as she simply looks at the player and disappears. So seeing her not die in Revelation makes it less surprising than it truly is intended. Secondly, Of course its reveals a lot but that what makes that game special. its meant to serve fans but NOT the ones who aren't too much into it.

In Birthright she disappears in front of the players' eyes. It's true that we don't see her die in Conquest, but we do know that she's probably not there anymore judging by the scene at the lake.

Do you think Intelligent Systems made Revelation to serve fans? Do you think a company made a separate third path that answers everything worth knowing about the plot while keeping the important parts out of Birthright and Conquest and then selling it at the same price to be nice?

But that's not the problem fates has here because each path follows its own individual story. Birthright wants you to put an end to Ganon and so you do that, Conquest wants you to make Nohr a better kingdom so you do just that and nothing else. Revelation is simply to bring two kingdoms together.

What? Both stories only exist because Azura can't tell everyone what's going on, and makes no effort to change that. Besides, both Birthright and Conquest end up being about defeating Garon, and the two stories follow a near identical structure while hardly revealing anything about Valla and the true villain.

"Making Nohr a better kingdom" via invading Hoshido?

Revelation is not "simply to bring two kingdoms together", it completely ignores the main conflict, Garon and the very premise the game was sold on.

I'm having the hardest time understanding what exactly you're arguing about.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Thane

[Water Mage]

Speaking about the Oracle games, it's worth noting that Oracle of Seasons was originally going to be a remake of the first Zelda, and there were going to be 3 Oracle games.

It works because their connection is quite minimal.

[NekoKnight]

I'm having the hardest time understanding what exactly you're arguing about.

That makes two of us. I'm not entirely sure the OP is aware of what he's arguing either. He seems to have a warped understanding of how the 3 games fit together.