Improving the Story and Characters of Fates(spoilers)

[SageHarpuiaJDJ]

Hello, Serene's Forest!

It's been, I think 6 months, since Fates has been released. As a game, it's pretty damn good, but this topic isn't meant for the gameplay. No, this topic is meant for the biggest criticism and complaint about Fates: the Characters and Story.

When it comes to characters, the Fates' cast suffers from a lot things. Let's just list them all from what I've collected. Some characters suffer from:

-little to no development or story time if said character is a side protagonist

-barely gets any character development due to being a Corrinsexual

-does very questionable and downright idiotic things

-are just bland all around

-too gimmicky

-has a rage inducing gimmick

-has a good story and concept, but goes nowhere

-and more that I may not have seen/remember

The story suffers from a lot of things too.

-plot armor

-plot devices that are only there to lengthen the story

-many arcs and stories that feels more like filler

-the main protagonist not learning anything

-the way the starting chapters doesn't really give a real, logical reason to join Nohr

-the Hoshido chapter being way too basic

-the Nohr chapter having a good idea, but falling on its face with its execution

-the Valla chapter having little to no pacing

-and more that I may not have seen/remember

These problems resulted in confusion, disappointment, and most of all, rage. So. Much. Rage. Like, there isn't one character that no one hates with a burning passion, and there isn't really a character that gets a lot praise as a character. In fact, the only characters that I don't see get a lot of shit is Niles, Takumi, Oboro, and Scarlet. The story is in the same boat. The flames still seem to burn hot, and might not go down anytime soon, so I think it would be a good idea to convert that energy into something positive and actually try to give ideas on how parts of the story, and the characters in general, can be improved and more likeable. One thing that I will give Fates, it had potential. Sooooooooo much potential. So instead of just beating on the all of the faults, we should instead give different ideas and discuss each upon each other.

This is an obvious thing, but please try to be subtle. Like, no "[this character/story arc] should just be dead/not exist/can't be helped." And please try respect each other. I'm sure that you all are tired on harping on all the bad, so I really don't want this thread to go the shitter because the train of anger starts to leave the station.

Now for my contribution:

[spoiler=pre-branch of fate]Something that I've never really thought about was the starting chapters. The starting chapters actually creates some huge problems in all stories, as well as introduce some things that never go anywhere.

The prologue is the better of the Fates' chapters, seeing that we actually get to see and understand the conflict that's to come. Chapter 1 is also good as well as is introduces the Nohr Siblings fairly well without giving out too much.

Chapter 2... is when things start to get bad. The idea of Corrin having to fight to prove him(her)self to Garon is a good idea and the aftermath is good for the most part. The big problem with this is the Ganglari. The fact that Garon gives away where it comes from and what is does is a clear sign that the sword is gonna be part of a huge conflict. The chapter when he gets it is also too early. Garon's reaction could've been played a bit better too. Ganglari would've worked better if it was given to Corrin on chapter 3.

Speaking of which, the whole scene with Garon laughing for no damn reason, at least from what I remember, is pointless. That certain part should've been Iago's introduction, talking to Garon about the recent events, but not giving out the plan that would lead to the Corrin being in Hoshido. After Elise and Corrin entered, Garon would decide to give Corrin another chance to redeem him(her)self by just scouting out the Bottomless Canyon. Before leaving, Iago would give Corrin the sword if a battle was to happen, and afterwards assign Hans to join him to 'protect' Corrin. Hans' backstory wouldn't be put out there thought, instead, Iago explains that Hans is just a crook who's turning a new leaf and wants to be soldier for the Nohrian army.

Now Chapter 3 is fixed by a lot for this. Corrin sees the Hoshido guards and wants to talk to them, but Hans attacks one of the guards, saying that he was a treat to his safety and couldn't be trusted. Now Corrin is forced to fight and kill, shaken up by the result. Then when Saizo comes, his guilt gets the better of him and he can't retaliate and everything else afterward proceeds. Now for the bridge scene. The scenario with Hans killing Gunter now makes sense. After seeing his caretaker die in front of his eyes, Corrin is now borderline scared, as well as angry. Now the Dragon Blood start to kick in and he attacks without any control of his/her actions or conscience. Hans then says that this wasn't part of the plan, and Corrin comes to his/her senses when Hans starts to run off, Corrin not hearing what Hans said. The result of Corrin's Dragon Blood causes the Ganglari to react in a strange manor, and it forces Corrin to the Bottomless Canyon. Then Lilith shows up and takes Corrin to the astral plane. Lilith also explains that the amount of time that she can stay in Corrin's world is limited due to her lack of a human body, and won't be able to help Corrin in the battle that currently taking place in his world, which I don't think was never explained. Aftewards, Corrin gets knocked out by Rinkah when (s)he returns to his/her world.

Chapter 4 has some good moments in it's introduction. I actually think that the castle scene is pretty tame. Although, hearing Kaze and Rinkah talk to Corrin for a bit before going to the castle would help out more with fleshing out their character a bit. Now for the Sakura and Hinoka scene. It actually took me watching Ghast plot review video to realized what was wrong with this scenario: Hinoka is on a fucking Pegasus. This would make more sense if Hinoka's Pegasus got injured and couldn't fly, and the injury would actually take awhile for Sakura to heal. In spite of the situation, Corrin is still hesitant to fight, but decides to fight after remembering what happened to Gunter. Everything else is fine in that regard. Now with Azura's introduction. The talk would be pretty much the same in regards to Hoshido and Nohr, but instead Corrin would try to defend Garon, but fails, resulting in a shaky first impression. Azura then sees the Ganglari, but Corrin leaves before she could say anything, so she says something that implies that she has a plan.

Chapter 5 is also okay at first, but then gets bad at the emotional part. Corrin seeing Hoshido for the first time is good, although some parts can be added where Azura tries to warn Corrin, but Corrin is too distracted by the scenery and doesn't listen. When they arrive at the plaza and shit starts to go down there are a few things that can better. Since Corrin and company were not in the crowd, when the explosion happens, they can run and hide somewhere but still get injured due to the aftershock and maybe some shards hitting a few of them, leaving them with a huge health loss in the map. As for Mikoto dying, she uses her body as shield from most of the damage that Corrin could've taken, resulting in fatal injury and the rest of the scene, only Ryoma struggles harder to attack the hooded figure due to injury. When Corrin becomes a dragon, Azura then points out that he needs to be calmed down before he goes berserk, since his normal conscience is still in tact, which is the reason why he's attacking the invaders and not everyone else. After Azura sings to bring Corrin back to normal, instead of the Corrin gaining his/her memory completely, (s)he only remembers the parts where Sumeragi is dead, and Garon takes him/her. Since Azura confirmed that she actually knows something about Corrin's Dragon form, it now makes a bit more sense when she gives Corrin the Dragonstone.

Edited August 9, 2016 by SageHarpuiaJDJ

[Thane]

This is an obvious thing, but please try to be subtle. Like, no "[this character/story arc] should just be dead/not exist/can't be helped."

Well, I genuinely do believe that removing Valla and Anankos would've benefited the game. There would've only been two routes, and it would mean that they could've focused entirely on the main conflict which gets ignored in Revelation, Garon wouldn't be made of goo and would hopefully have gotten a personality to compensate, which could've solved the problem with Xander's stupidity. Azura wouldn't have to pretend to be super mysterious and artificially lengthen the game, and so on.

Revelation removes any tension and complexity from the game, and the fact that the true path is locked behind a paywall means that Birthright and Conquest are limited in how much of the real villain they can show, which is one reason as to why they feel so lackluster.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Thane

[joshcja]

A lot of the issues people have with the games is their selfie making all the poor life choices. So just change the lord.

Example:

Cq route: Corrin dies in the forest. Picking up the fallen dragonstone Elise is forcefully re-classed out of fucking troubadour breaking Garons seal on Nhors ultimate weapon. Wyvern!Elise subjugates Hoshido with the power of the BoltAxe Yato. Hans, Garon, Iago, and Arankos all hide under their blankys because "If we cant see her she cant see us, if we cant see her she cant see us" and are never heard from again.

Now regarded as best plot in any FE game.

(But seriously Fates is just trollface fanfiction, rewriting it as more trollface fanfiction. While hilarious, is not going to be terribly helpful)

Edited August 9, 2016 by joshcja

[WinterOkami]

I agree with your Pre-Branch of Fate remade chapters but it would have made a lot more sense to me at least to have Corrin simply get saved by Rinkah when he is traveling instead of knocking him down because that really felt like nonsense to me.

[SageHarpuiaJDJ]

Well, I genuinely do believe that removing Valla and Anankos would've benefited the game. There would've only been two routes, and it would mean that they could've focused entirely on the main conflict which gets ignored in Revelation, Garon wouldn't be made of goo and would hopefully have gotten a personality to compensate, which could've solved the problem with Xander's stupidity. Azura wouldn't have to pretend to be super mysterious and artificially lengthen the game, and so on.

Revelation removes any tension and complexity from the game, and the fact that the true path is locked behind a paywall means that Birthright and Conquest are limited in how much of the real villain they can show, which is one reason as to why they feel so lackluster.

That's actually an interesting thing to think about. Revelation's story in general just seemed to be rushed from what I've seen.

Still, I don't think that the path itself was the problem, but rather how much each path revealed about each. Conquest revealed the true big bad, but he's just treated as a mythical entity and no one really questions it. Birthright actually had the hooded man attack again, but that's the last time we see him or hear about him. Those two things alone could actually lead to some interesting side arcs.

So, it could've worked out better in the long run if Revelations didn't exist, and it's an interesting discussion, but the main point of the thread is to point out ideas on how each could've work with three paths being a thing. I'm not dismissing your statement, though.

I agree with your Pre-Branch of Fate remade chapters but it would have made a lot more sense to me at least to have Corrin simply get saved by Rinkah when he is traveling instead of knocking him down because that really felt like nonsense to me.

That's actually a good point.

[TheTuckingFypo]

I see where you're coming from... That laughing scene was outright creepy. Like, why is he laughing? Is he hiding another concubine or something? There was literally no indication to point towards the plan that takes place in the pre-chapters.

The other thing that bugged me is Mikoto's death, or rather, the Avatar's reaction to her death. I don't know how anyone could accept someone who claims to be their mother without proof so quickly :/ It was like, "Oh okay, I'll accept you as my mommy," followed almost immediately with her death.... Overreaction much?

To add a positive note to the topic, I did like how Takumi's inferiority complex was handled, to an extent. What didn't make sense to me was the lack of what character growth he had in Revelations in comparison to Birthright and Conquest. Like, they did nothing with it O_O. I would've liked to see the manipulation Takumi was exposed to in Birthright be put in Revelations.

May I ask what you mean by "plot armor"?

[Captain Karnage]

I agree with Thane

they just should have just had the Birthright and Conquest paths so ther could have been more focus on the main story

however I feel that Conquest is the best one to playthrough, it feels very reminisent of Thracia 776 with what they try to get you to do in the maps

I love how Conquest has more than just defeat the boss or route the enemy with its escape missions and the defensive play of CH 10. Even when a map is defeat the boss it's no easy task just trying to get to him/her.

dragon veins were done better in conquest imo, they felt more like a risk vs reward when you used them

ex. ch 12 if you use it to break all ot the pots (LOZ style, lol) you have an easier pat to the escape point, but you give the enemy more freedom to move, the archers behind the pots are free, the the reinforcements have a strait path to you.\

and personally Shura is my favorite of the Corrinsexuals as he has probably the best backstory, and in BR & CQ you learn something different about him in each version

+ his personal skill w Setsuna's yumi is a killer combo.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Captain Karnage

[SageHarpuiaJDJ]

I see where you're coming from... That laughing scene was outright creepy. Like, why is he laughing? Is he hiding another concubine or something? There was literally no indication to point towards the plan that takes place in the pre-chapters.

The other thing that bugged me is Mikoto's death, or rather, the Avatar's reaction to her death. I don't know how anyone could accept someone who claims to be their mother without proof so quickly :/ It was like, "Oh okay, I'll accept you as my mommy," followed almost immediately with her death.... Overreaction much?

To add a positive note to the topic, I did like how Takumi's inferiority complex was handled, to an extent. What didn't make sense to me was the lack of what character growth he had in Revelations in comparison to Birthright and Conquest. Like, they did nothing with it O_O. I would've liked to see the manipulation Takumi was exposed to in Birthright be put in Revelations.

May I ask what you mean by "plot armor"?

Things like Corrin and everyone else not even getting a scratch from the explosion.

[DragonFlames]

A lot of the issues people have with the games is their selfie making all the poor life choices. So just change the lord.

Example:

Cq route: Corrin dies in the forest. Picking up the fallen dragonstone Elise is forcefully re-classed out of fucking troubadour breaking Garons seal on Nhors ultimate weapon. Wyvern!Elise subjugates Hoshido with the power of the BoltAxe Yato. Hans, Garon, Iago, and Arankos all hide under their blankys because "If we cant see her she cant see us, if we cant see her she cant see us" and are never heard from again.

Now regarded as best plot in any FE game.

(But seriously Fates is just trollface fanfiction, rewriting it as more trollface fanfiction. While hilarious, is not going to be terribly helpful)

I actually laughed out loud!

And it actually goes well with my personal headcanon that Elise and Sakura are actually the strongest of all the Royals, but due to young age/lack of experience can't use their full power yet. Well done, my friend! Well done!

As for changes to the story: I would put more focus on the Awakening trio, especially in Revelations, to better tie to the DLC, maybe even make them EXCLUSIVE to Revelations: Here's how:

• Have them meet with Corrin, Azura and Jakob/Felicia in Bottomless Canyon, giving Corrin and Jakob/Felicia another incentive to jump off the bridge
• Having arrived in Valla, they tell them the whole story with Anankos, thus starting the path proper
• Return to My Castle: The three meet Lillith and there are some animosities between them at first.
• Revelation goes on as normal, but with more input from Laslow, Odin and Selena, like them trying to convince the Nohrian Royals to join Corrin's cause, all of them failing to do so at first, so that battle may ensue.
• At the end of each battle, they talk to the Royal they served and they finally listen and join. (thus requiring three seperate recruit chapters for each Royal, optmally starting from Chapter 11, where you originally recruit Camilla. They could even connect that to the whole 'find the Rainbow Sage' plot. Elise still joins you without fighting you first.)
• After Hoshido and Nohr are united (Chapter 18), the group goes to Valla and the three explain the whole story, with Azura adding a thing or two.
• They go through Valla (which now gets ACTUAL worldbuilding).
• Corrin, Laslow, Odin and Selena are attacked in one Chapter (possibly by Arete or Sumeragi), but Lillith jumps in to save them and dies after revealing to Corrin that Anankos is their father and that she is in fact their sister, shocking Corrin and making them doubt their goals.
• Laslow, Odin and Selena as well as Azura and Corrin's spouse (if they have one at this point) talk them out of their depression and hesitation, giving them new courage. Before this happens, the army almost falls apart, opening up a forced skirmish in your castle, where Corrin, along with Azura, Laslow, Odin, Selena, Jakob/Felicia, Silas and Kaze (if you have at least an A-support with him) have to stop the others from fighting each other.
• The army reconciles under Corrin's lead and they head to where Anankos dwells, where the mad dragon gloats about Corrin suffering the same fate as him, since they have his blood running through their veins, but Corrin says that will never happen to them, since they have friends and loved ones (cheesy, I know) and thus the Omega Yato is created.
• Laslow, Odin and Selena reveal that they made a promise with Anankos to bring his child to him so that they can free him from his madness and the fight begins.
• Ending has Corrin offer Laslow, Odin and Selena positions as his retainers/assistants, but they decline, saying that they have to return to their own world now that their task is done. If Corrin is married to either one of them, they will follow them in the proper ending.

What do you guys think of this?

Edited August 9, 2016 by DragonFlames

[Raguna]

I actually laughed out loud!

And it actually goes well with my personal headcanon that Elise and Sakura are actually the strongest of all the Royals, but due to young age/lack of experience can't use their full power yet. Well done, my friend! Well done!

As for changes to the story: I would put more focus on the Awakening trio, especially in Revelations, to better tie to the DLC, maybe even make them EXCLUSIVE to Revelations: Here's how:

• Have them meet with Corrin, Azura and Jakob/Felicia in Bottomless Canyon, giving Corrin and Jakob/Felicia another incentive to jump off the bridge
• Having arrived in Valla, they tell them the whole story with Anankos, thus starting the path proper
• Return to My Castle: The three meet Lillith and there are some animosities between them at first.
• Revelation goes on as normal, but with more input from Laslow, Odin and Selena, like them trying to convince the Nohrian Royals to join Corrin's cause, all of them failing to do so at first, so that battle may ensue.
• At the end of each battle, they talk to the Royal they served and they finally listen and join. (thus requiring three seperate recruit chapters for each Royal, optmally starting from Chapter 11, where you originally recruit Camilla. They could even connect that to the whole 'find the Rainbow Sage' plot. Elise still joins you without fighting you first.)
• After Hoshido and Nohr are united (Chapter 18), the group goes to Valla and the three explain the whole story, with Azura adding a thing or two.
• They go through Valla (which now gets ACTUAL worldbuilding).
• Corrin, Laslow, Odin and Selena are attacked in one Chapter (possibly by Arete or Sumeragi), but Lillith jumps in to save them and dies after revealing to Corrin that Anankos is their father and that she is in fact their sister, shocking Corrin and making them doubt their goals.
• Laslow, Odin and Selena as well as Azura and Corrin's spouse (if they have one at this point) talk them out of their depression and hesitation, giving them new courage. Before this happens, the army almost falls apart, opening up a forced skirmish in your castle, where Corrin, along with Azura, Laslow, Odin, Selena, Jakob/Felicia, Silas and Kaze (if you have at least an A-support with him) have to stop the others from fighting each other.
• The army reconciles under Corrin's lead and they head to where Anankos dwells, where the mad dragon gloats about Corrin suffering the same fate as him, since they have his blood running through their veins, but Corrin says that will never happen to them, since they have friends and loved ones (cheesy, I know) and thus the Omega Yato is created.
• Laslow, Odin and Selena reveal that they made a promise with Anankos to bring his child to him so that they can free him from his madness and the fight begins.
• Ending has Corrin offer Laslow, Odin and Selena positions as his retainers/assistants, but they decline, saying that they have to return to their own world now that their task is done. If Corrin is married to either one of them, they will follow them in the proper ending.

What do you guys think of this?

It would definitely give some more context but I see a problem if the Awakening trio was this super involved in the story as well then people would complain as well since the other retainers aren't even considered. If Fates couldn't leave Awakening's shadow this set of events would cement it even further especially with that kind of ending. Lilith dying feels unnecessary in all paths and I exposing the sister thing in her death is like how the cousin relationship between Azura was revealed with Mikoto which would come off as flawed. Lastly why would they start fighting again when they're already in Valla and trusting Corrin. Him being injured and depressed by an external force with such a Avatar focused story would make them band together rather than attack each other. I apologize if it sounds rude but I believe this fix up comes with its own problems.

Also I have to question. Would the kids factor in any way in the story since we do have them and they don't do anything even if we have the units or would baby realm stupidity not exist and they're still babies.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Raguna

[Millyna]

Tbh, about the children... I believe, pretty much everyone agrees that the realms are not good.

I'm thinking about writing a fanfiction in which the children are born after the war (so characters who are too young for children yet still can have some) and they have their own "mission" to make. Instand of the Heirs of Fate stuff (which's story I never really understood.) could have been another DLC path. The childrens stats/hair colors/dragon blood possibility/secondary classes are based on the other saves, the player has.

Kana could be the main character and have a development from "I want to be like Mommy/Daddy cuz s/he's great" to S/he has to be herself.

[DragonFlames]

It would definitely give some more context but I see a problem if the Awakening trio was this super involved in the story as well then people would complain as well since the other retainers aren't even considered. If Fates couldn't leave Awakening's shadow this set of events would cement it even further especially with that kind of ending. Lilith dying feels unnecessary in all paths and I exposing the sister thing in her death is like how the cousin relationship between Azura was revealed with Mikoto which would come off as flawed. Lastly why would they start fighting again when they're already in Valla and trusting Corrin. Him being injured and depressed by an external force with such a Avatar focused story would make them band together rather than attack each other. I apologize if it sounds rude but I believe this fix up comes with its own problems.

Also I have to question. Would the kids factor in any way in the story since we do have them and they don't do anything even if we have the units or would baby realm stupidity not exist and they're still babies.

No, you don't sound rude, don't worry. You actually made some very good points I hadn't considered.

I have to admit that I wrote this on the fly and it was just a basic idea of how I would patch up Revelations' story specifically. Of course it would be rough around the edges, so thanks for your input! :D

[WinterOkami]

I am tempted to read all of this but I haven't completed Revelations so farewell for now at least I'll be back soon.