Ace Attorney Mafia - Game Over (Won the Lawsuit!)

[Elieson]

Im at meet the teacher night wjth lexi but

Wouldnt a miller turn up as Vanilla to a rolecop?

[Refa]

I'm curious, who's your character, Eury?

Kirsche said that he showed up as guilty to investigative scans, so that shouldn't be the case.

[Elieson]

Hmm

Ive started setting up millers to display as [Mafia] and/or [scummy obvisxum role] aa millers when building games and hosting here/bulba. That might be the case.

Im feeling more like tossing a vote on JB over DF. Frustratingly, eurys rolecop claim is super unhelpful regarding her alignment

[ZoesMad]

I think if Eury doesn't end up getting lynched she should target Kirsche. Sticking to dragon for now, I just think there's something there. Finally gonna look at Ken/Quote

[Green Poet]

(This assumes millers do count as roles that are returned by rolecop scans.)

Even if Eury were more interested in learning about riptor, it would have been more telling to cop kirsche.

Rolecopping kirsche would have confirmed his alignment. If kirsche were lying about being miller, this would also almost guarantee town!Riptor, because seriously, who tunnel busses that hard?

Rolecopping Riptor would have maybe told you his alignment if you were lucky and his role were alignment-exclusive.

It benefits town more to rolecop kirsche, because it yields more info. It benefits mafia more to rolecop riptor, because they know town!kirsche's miller claim is legit and can learn if Riptor is ITP or something.

[Zkirsche]

In addition to what's been said rolecop is a very common scum role.

My only inhibition with this wagon is that there is zero resistance to it whatsoever.

[Ken Masters]

Oh I know that much. I mean, scumside has no real use for alliance cops, since they pretty much know who's NOT Mafia-side (though there is the grey area of "third parties", cults, etc.). That's why I know that my claim, in itself, isn't really meant to sway much in the sense of "Hey, I'm 100% a townie role" because I know I've doubted and have been skeptical of role cop claims for 90%+ of my time here on SF myself.

And of course that's true. Which again, is why I didn't feel like saying anything come ED2. For one, death-related roles (aside from maybe grave digger-esque roles? Not including back-ups with that notion, mind you.) are ones that I feel townside are more likely to attain than scum, and your role (knowing some sort of flavor/background knowledge of PW) made me wonder if the person you could channel could actually post or something with your account/voice, or something else to that effect. I know my experiences as a tree stump were pretty wonky, but I altogether figured you were highly more likely not to be a scum role vs. townside with an effect like what you have, if that makes sense

Except that my role would never have been dangerous. The sole reason it exists it is to be revealed asap, to allow my ghost the gift of a (less glamorous) second chance.

It feels like a very weak justification to me.

[Green Poet]

I would really like to hear what JB thinks about this, actually.

[Dragonflare7]

I think I'm alright with this.

##Vote: Eurykins

[Ken Masters]

I think I'm alright with this.

##Vote: Eurykins

Hey, lady!

Would you like to explain yoour reasoning behind the vote? Even if you have to repeat what has already been said.

I would just like to read it...

[Dragonflare7]

I voted since from my point of view: Role Cop makes Miller role seem rather strange and unneeded (if I understand correctly) and rather then confirming Kirsche's claim which seemed to be the big topic of discussion during day one, Eurykins decided to Role Cop you instead. A decision I really don't understand...

[Zkirsche]

##Unvote To avoid L-1.

[Ken Masters]

Proto's input:

To summarize my reads atm:

Refa: Scum
- His case on me was based on points that I already addressed, which implies that he didn't thoroughly read my posts. Only scum would try to find good excuses to case somebody without acknowledging whether they actually replied to those.
- Refa also shifted to Eurykins (because he didn't want to vote me solely due to RVS stuff) and kept his vote there until 6 minutes before deadline, where he whipped up a quote from me and voted for me. Almost like he was scouring my ISO to justify vote-changing to me before Eurykins gets lynched.

which leads to...

...Eurykins: Scum
- Her RoleCop claim was likely legit. Riptor's role is usually called "Medium", and even though they are called Spirit Mediums in the AA universe, to add "Spirit" to the rolename was probably not a lucky gamble. Furthermore, if she does survive N2, she'd have a hard time maintaining her RoleCop authenticity.
- Presence of a Town RoleCop is very conflicting with Kirsche's Town Miller. Not only does it imply that BOTH a Town Alignment Cop and Town Role Cop exist in a 13-player game (highly unlikely unless Mafia is OP as hell), but it also means that she can easily verify Kirsche's Miller claim, since it's supposedly part of his rolename, which significantly negates the purpose of the Miller component.

- Furthermore, if she were Town RoleCop, she should have been especially suspicious of Kirsche's Town Miller. But she said it didn't seem like a scum gambit and that she considering the Miller discussions as being unproductive. She was even asking me as to why I was asking Kirsche about the details of the Miller role, even though a Town RoleCop would care even more about those details (e.g. whether it's actually treated as part of his alignment and not actually scanned by rolecops). In fact, she later said "TL;DR: If I scanned Kirsche, it'd probably pop up with, "Hey, he's a Miller ___ (whatever else he is, if he does have a secondary thing)". Not whether he's Mafia or not.
I. Do. not. see. the. conflict."
The conflict is that if you were Town, then the Miller effect would be exposed and negated by you scoping him. You don't see it because this doesn't immediately occur to Mafia RoleCops.

- Given that there was a lot of discussion and arguments over Kirsche's role, she still chose to investigate Riptor in N1. Clearing Kirsche's role would help a lot for Town, not just for verifying his Miller claim but also because Mafia Millers do not exist (unless Enigmar is a troll), so as Green Poet said, scoping Kirsche would also confirm his alignment for sure (since if he's not Miller, he's lying scum). Riptor's role may not have been alignment-indicative (it actually is, but she couldn't know that in N1), so it would be much less useful for Town RoleCop to scope him. On the other hand, it would be less productive for Mafia to scope Kirsche they already know about his Miller component (with no doubt) and would rather go for somebody with an unknown role that might be threatening to them. Scoping Riptor instead of Kirsche points strongly to a Mafia mindset over a Town one.

[Ken Masters]

Yo Kirsche!

Is "Miller" explicitly written in the bolded part of your role PM?

Just answer with yes or no, it's a re Proto..

[Ken Masters]

request from Proto*

[Zkirsche]

Yes.

[ZoesMad]

My opinions in bold.

Well, with the ghost out of the way, I would like to voice a specific train of thought I want to follow. Bear in mind, I'm probably gonna butcher a bunch of english grammar because my head is full of Mandelbrot dimensions right now.

Quote is scum to me. I know I said I thought of him as Town yesterday, but after reading through his ISO (I did an intensive reading last Night phase which proved to be glorious, loving this ISO thingy) I noticed a trend, and that trend is using "vibes" and "feelings" as a way to construct a case.

So, my Statement: Quote case on Proto was not solid and did not deserve to be followed.

Evidence 1: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=65743&page=3#entry4499248 "Proto is giving me weird gutvibes, the Eury jokevote feels like a scum jokevote (don't ask me why it just does) and the Kirsche vote is bad" Notice the careful wording to let know that everything is "a feeling". This is what I call an "easy knot" as in while it's a "valid" vote on the early stages of the games (where instinct is your only friend) it's easy to justify when it eventually gets proven wrong by utilizing the "it was just a feeling" card. You also don't need to improve much on it, because if you step back by spraying suspicion around while havinmg your weak vote already place, you will not be called out on it.

We can also see here the blatantly false statement "vote on Kirsche is bad" giving absolutely no reason on why that vote was "bad". Notice how it also says that a completely valid question in a confusing situation regarding mod affairs was qualified as "fishing out roles", which I think we can all agree given the chaotic context, was never a thing.

The rest is filled with questions. I've noticed that questions to other players are commonly used as easy filler/good deflectors around here it seems, so I can't really blame him for that.

Quote has been using said questions in further posts such as this and this, so I don't think you can fault them for that. This is mega but early game Via using vibes and gut doesn't bother me. I also think there's merit to making sure people don't role spec/fish heavily in the early game. Looking at the context, Kirsche has just explained his role already and Proto empty voted him because?? It's a plausible thought for Via to have.

Evidence 2: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=65743&page=3#entry4499296 Here we have more gutfeelings used as a "stance" which I feel is, again, an easy knot situation. Also here it starts the spraying shade around other players without actually leading the charge. Backseat lynching I call it. You'll see this behaviour repeating over time as a fractal.

Again, this post came really early day one, read evidence one statement.

Evidence 3: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=65743&page=8#entry4501648 Gutfeelings again, shade around again, now let's add mostly Town reads to the list. Now he keeps his vote on Proto, but not because he now has a somewhat solid case, butactually still relying on "feelings the whole day through. That's ridiculous when far more solid cases were made for different players at the time (including the case made on me, btw, but I'll talk about that later)

If they hadn't expressed any intent to shift their vote from Proto, why would you expect them to switch? I agree with your sentiment about gut/feelings starting to fade away as a legit reason.

Evidence 4: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=65743&page=8#entry4501656 This is one of the most aggravating posts, because here he uses logic and actual deductive capabilities to explain why he thinks I'm Town (demonstarting that he is able to build an actual case if he wants to) but then goes back to the "feel ride" again, now on JB, where he could have accused him (rigthly so) of low production on Day 1. Again, somehow he connects his lack of interest on JB to proto for.... some reason. Here then come another shift in the nature of the post, and Mr Quote gives his very first actual reason to vote on Proto, 3 hours before the phase goes away. This man had absolutely no case at all on proto until the very end, mostly based on a valid criticism of Proto towards me. I was, indeed, being unproductive to his goal. Whetever you disagree with that is fine, but notice how Quote mentions that what makes him doubt of Proto is just that he mnakes the word "feel" different. Not Word twisting, just "feel"

I consider my Statement to be solid under this bases.

Via noted specific things that supplemented the Proto vote here which you completely ignore (Unproductiveness), and I don't think they were only justifying it with gut anymore.

Now I'll use it to geneate a question, and that question is: "Why did quote persue a case that was not solid, based solely on gut feelings when much more solid cases were laid out?"

My Hypothesis is simple: "While not his original plan, that was Quote's final goal, since Quote is a member of the Mafia"

I'll take about the general ambience, other players and my tsundere relationship with Kirsche tomorrow. My head is about to explode

##Vote: Quote

Ken I think you're town but you should try to broaden your horizons. I ain't doing this to rip your case apart but you've been tunneling on Via kind of hard and I think it might be good for you to hear some other insight.

[ZoesMad]

Oh god that totally got messed up

[ZoesMad]

My opinions in bold.

Well, with the ghost out of the way, I would like to voice a specific train of thought I want to follow. Bear in mind, I'm probably gonna butcher a bunch of english grammar because my head is full of Mandelbrot dimensions right now.

Quote is scum to me. I know I said I thought of him as Town yesterday, but after reading through his ISO (I did an intensive reading last Night phase which proved to be glorious, loving this ISO thingy) I noticed a trend, and that trend is using "vibes" and "feelings" as a way to construct a case.

So, my Statement: Quote case on Proto was not solid and did not deserve to be followed.

Evidence 1: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=65743&page=3#entry4499248 "Proto is giving me weird gutvibes, the Eury jokevote feels like a scum jokevote (don't ask me why it just does) and the Kirsche vote is bad" Notice the careful wording to let know that everything is "a feeling". This is what I call an "easy knot" as in while it's a "valid" vote on the early stages of the games (where instinct is your only friend) it's easy to justify when it eventually gets proven wrong by utilizing the "it was just a feeling" card. You also don't need to improve much on it, because if you step back by spraying suspicion around while havinmg your weak vote already place, you will not be called out on it.

We can also see here the blatantly false statement "vote on Kirsche is bad" giving absolutely no reason on why that vote was "bad". Notice how it also says that a completely valid question in a confusing situation regarding mod affairs was qualified as "fishing out roles", which I think we can all agree given the chaotic context, was never a thing.

The rest is filled with questions. I've noticed that questions to other players are commonly used as easy filler/good deflectors around here it seems, so I can't really blame him for that.

Quote has been using said questions in further posts such as this and this, so I don't think you can fault them for that. This is mega but early game Via using vibes and gut doesn't bother me. I also think there's merit to making sure people don't role spec/fish heavily in the early game. Looking at the context, Kirsche has just explained his role already and Proto empty voted him because?? It's a plausible thought for Via to have.

Evidence 2: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=65743&page=3#entry4499296 Here we have more gutfeelings used as a "stance" which I feel is, again, an easy knot situation. Also here it starts the spraying shade around other players without actually leading the charge. Backseat lynching I call it. You'll see this behaviour repeating over time as a fractal.

Again, this post came really early day one, read evidence one statement.

Evidence 3: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=65743&page=8#entry4501648 Gutfeelings again, shade around again, now let's add mostly Town reads to the list. Now he keeps his vote on Proto, but not because he now has a somewhat solid case, butactually still relying on "feelings the whole day through. That's ridiculous when far more solid cases were made for different players at the time (including the case made on me, btw, but I'll talk about that later)

If they hadn't expressed any intent to shift their vote from Proto, why would you expect them to switch? I agree with your sentiment about gut/feelings starting to fade away as a legit reason.

Evidence 4: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=65743&page=8#entry4501656 This is one of the most aggravating posts, because here he uses logic and actual deductive capabilities to explain why he thinks I'm Town (demonstarting that he is able to build an actual case if he wants to) but then goes back to the "feel ride" again, now on JB, where he could have accused him (rigthly so) of low production on Day 1. Again, somehow he connects his lack of interest on JB to proto for.... some reason. Here then come another shift in the nature of the post, and Mr Quote gives his very first actual reason to vote on Proto, 3 hours before the phase goes away. This man had absolutely no case at all on proto until the very end, mostly based on a valid criticism of Proto towards me. I was, indeed, being unproductive to his goal. Whetever you disagree with that is fine, but notice how Quote mentions that what makes him doubt of Proto is just that he mnakes the word "feel" different. Not Word twisting, just "feel"

I consider my Statement to be solid under this bases.

Via noted specific things that supplemented the Proto vote here which you completely ignore (Unproductiveness), and I don't think they were only justifying it with gut anymore.

Now I'll use it to geneate a question, and that question is: "Why did quote persue a case that was not solid, based solely on gut feelings when much more solid cases were laid out?"

My Hypothesis is simple: "While not his original plan, that was Quote's final goal, since Quote is a member of the Mafia"

I'll take about the general ambience, other players and my tsundere relationship with Kirsche tomorrow. My head is about to explode

Should be fixed

[Elieson]

When is phase enderinno?

[Green Poet]

Should be in 22 hours.

[Ken Masters]

So letting you know right way:
An emergency happened, and I'm leaving town now.
I'll probably be back late sunday when the situation changes.

I'll vote now, but be aware that I won't be able to check at all.
Sorry for the sudden aspect of this post, but I think it's important that you know about it.

With that out of the way:

##Unvote: Quote

##Vote: Eurykins

You're a rolecop, but the chances of you being a scum Rolecop greatly overshadows that of a Townie one. You reasoning to spec me over Kirsche was weak, and so it was your reasoning to not disclose what you found about me.
Youy're honestly the only lynch that makes sense in the current situation.

[solrocknroll]

Votals 2.2:

Eury is at L-1

everyone else's Votals will come soon enough, just thought I'd go ahead and mention that

[Green Poet]

##Unvote

[solrocknroll]

Eurykins (4) L-2: Elieson, Quote, Riptor, Dragonflare7

Dragonflare7 (2): Gaius, JB

Not Voting: Toren, Eurykins, Kirsche, Refa, GP

Phase ends in 21 hours on August 20th at 6:00 CST/GMT-5.

With 11 left alive, it takes 6 to hammer.