All Female Units cliché/fantasm list.

[Emerson]

Also, how would Siegbert have been born when you kill Xander in Birthright? It also feels like a bad plan to just expect someone else to deal with that little world-threatening problem on the horizon.

I think they were saying anyone could pick it up and wield it, which isn't true. Only Xander, his ancestors, and his heirs can use Siegfried.

*Some of his ancestors and heirs. Obviously not all, or Camilla, Leo or Elise could've wielded it. Same with the other legendary weapons.

Guys, what is a fantasm?

That got answered on like the first page bro.

Edited August 26, 2016 by TrueEm

[Thane]

I think they were saying anyone could pick it up and wield it, which isn't true. Only Xander, his ancestors, and his heirs can use Siegfried.

How convenient. So this mystery person would pick up a royal Nohrian blade wielded by the crown prince, learn how to master it, find out about Anankos (most likely on their own now that the only person who knew about him is dead) and then unite with everyone else to stop him? All because Azura didn't have the energy to take a trip to the ravine?

How does this not make Azura a dick?

[Lightchao42]

Garon was going to invade Hoshido with or without Corrin and Azura, and trying to fight Garon directly wouldn't accomplish anything except getting them killed (unless they have the Shadow Yato, which requires the cooperation of their brothers). Azura knows that Garon is working for Anankos and wants to stop him as quickly as possible by any means necessary, even if it means invading Hoshido. Going along with the invasion was the only reasonable way to stop him, with the "bonus" of being able to work against him and minimize the damage he does.

She doesn't bring anyone to Valla or tell them about Anankos because they can't do anything to stop him unless Nohr and Hoshido work together, which is unlikely unless Corrin refuses to choose a side. They can't even get to Valla past the game's halfway point, so Azura would rather let everyone live in blissful ignorance and not burden them with her problems that they can't do anything about (so it's not the "right" choice, but is understandable given her circumstances). By the end of Birthright and Conquest the winning nation is probably strong enough to repel any Vallite invasion, and Anankos's plan to have Nohr and Hoshido destroy each other for him has failed.

Guys, what is a fantasm?

Hey, I already mentioned on the first page that "fantasm" is another word for "ghost".

Edited August 26, 2016 by Lightchao42

[Abvora]

You really don't see a problem with your reasoning here? Azura had two choices with the knowledge she had at hand: trying to do something that would not lead to a permanent solution or trying to do something that would lead to a permanent solution. She chose the former, when she should've done everything in her power to get them to the ravine. The fate of the world depended on it, so saying that they didn't have time is an odd statement to say the least.

Hell, it's what they do in Revelation, only that in Birthright they start with more allies, not less - why would they suddenly have less time in Birthright?

But Anankos is still out there, regardless if she delayed it. She could've saved the world, but didn't.

Also, how would Siegbert have been born when you kill Xander in Birthright? It also feels like a bad plan to just expect someone else to deal with that little world-threatening problem on the horizon.

This is so wrong on so many levels that I don't even know to begin. First of all, Azura states numerous times that she was treated well in Hoshido. Secondly, it was also clear that it was a minority group that led her away and that the Hoshidan siblings had nothing to do with it. Thirdly, being treated poorly does not mean she's justified in conquering an entire innocent nation. Fourthly, no matter how you spin it, the way the conflict is portrayed in Fates is black and white - Nohr is bad while Hoshido is good, so yes, the invasion is evil. They're attacking a country that literally had an anti-aggression barrier up to prevent any kind of conflcit, and Garon did everything in his power to destroy Hoshido, using means that are downright horrific and led to a lot of collateral damage.

It's one thing to disagree on Azura being a dick, but this statement is an exercise in mental gymnastics.

You don't see a problem with yours? She had two choices, but the situation she was in made one of them unviable. The army was not going to delay rescuing their crown prince and second/third prince on her say-so--she's not in charge and she's still distrusted among Hoshidans. And once they were rescued, Ryoma and Takumi were not going to detour to the Canyon and extend the amount of time Hoshido is destroyed on a vague "I'll tell you when we get there". The only reason Corrin listens to her in REV is because he's Corrin and they were desperate.

Because in Birthright, they have obligations to the army and Hoshido which they have to fulfill, or else be labelled deserters and traitors. In Revelation, she and Corrin are on their own.

But there are people alive who still know about him (Selena and Odin, possible Laslow) and people who can still stop him. Hoshido and Nohr have time to recover their strength and forge better relationships so they can unite against him, whereas during the game they were at war and weren't likely to make peace.

Is it ever stated that the weapons can only be used by the direct descendant of the previous wielder? I know only members the royal family can use them, but if any member can be born with the ability to use it, it stands to reason Camilla could have a child able to use Siegfried, or that Leo could have a second kid able to do the same. And keep in mind that Azura didn't know that they'd need Siegfried to make the Omega Yato, or that it was even key to killing Anankos in the first place--they only learn about that from the Rainbow Dragon.

A minority group that was able to kidnap her right out of Hoshido's castle, evade any pursuing Hoshidan soldiers, get into Nohr, and then fight off Corrin's forces? That sounds like a bigger faction to me. Being treated poorly doesn't justify it, but it does mean she no longer owes them anything.

I'm not arguing that Nohr's invasion of Hoshido wasn't evil or that there isn't a problem with black-and-white morality. I'm arguing with your metaphor because it wasn't an accurate representation of the situation. The metaphor you used is similar to what Garon is doing, invading something for the lolz. She's more in line with a Camus, going along with it while not necessarily liking it (and no, I'm not saying Azura's a Camus). Both are wrong, but there's different levels of wrong involved.

I think they were saying anyone could pick it up and wield it, which isn't true. Only Xander, his ancestors, and his heirs can use Siegfried.

*Some of his ancestors and heirs. Obviously not all, or Camilla, Leo or Elise could've wielded it. Same with the other legendary weapons.

No, that's not what I was saying, though I can see how it came off that way. I should have clarified it better, sorry.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Abvora

[Water Mage]

Garon was going to invade Hoshido with or without Corrin and Azura, and trying to fight Garon directly wouldn't accomplish anything except getting them killed (unless they have the Shadow Yato, which requires the cooperation of their brothers). Azura knows that Garon is working for Anankos and wants to stop him as quickly as possible by any means necessary, even if it means invading Hoshido. Going along with the invasion was the only reasonable way to stop him, with the "bonus" of being able to work against him and minimize the damage he does.

That's a good point actually.

While I still think that that wasn't a good idea, the invasion was going happen regardless, so was she trying to make the best of a bas situation?

[Lightchao42]

The metaphor you used is similar to what Garon is doing, invading something for the lolz.

Besides the whole "secretly possessed into serving Anankos" thing, I think that Garon is probably invading Hoshido under the justification that Nohr is suffering from a famine and that he wants to take Hoshido's resources by force. By this reasoning, he's less "evil" and more "willing to do anything to benefit Nohr" which makes his children going along with him easier to swallow, even if they don't agree with his methods.

That's a good point actually.

While I still think that that wasn't a good idea, the invasion was going happen regardless, so was she trying to make the best of a bas situation?

Azura couldn't do anything to stop the invasion, so she went along with it because it gave her and Corrin the best opportunity to expose Garon as a monster and to convince the Nohrian royals to oppose him.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Lightchao42

[Emerson]

That's a good point actually.

While I still think that that wasn't a good idea, the invasion was going happen regardless, so was she trying to make the best of a bad situation?

Anankos didn't really have a way of affecting the outside world without someone there, did he? In every situation, someone in Hosh/Nohr becomes controlled by Anankos when they go into Valla and then return up top, and only then do the Vallite soldiers come to the surface. Therefore, if Anankos was acting via Garon, wouldn't taking him out be the best thing to do?

Maybe I don't have all the info to speculate on this, I just wanted to get it out there.

Edited August 26, 2016 by TrueEm

[Abvora]

Anankos didn't really have a way of affecting the outside world without someone there, did he? In every situation, someone in Hosh/Nohr is controlled by Anankos, or acting using his power. Therefore, if Anankos was acting via Garon, wouldn't taking him out be the best thing to do?

Maybe I don't have all the info to speculate on this, I just wanted to get it out there.

He can't leave Valla without being severely weakened, so yes, he needs to either send soldiers or possess someone. So taking Garon out would be the best thing to do, correct.

Problem is, you can't just commit regicide and get away with it. So I do agree that exposing Garon for a monster was the best thing to do.

[Emerson]

He can't leave Valla without being severely weakened, so yes, he needs to either send soldiers or possess someone. So taking Garon out would be the best thing to do, correct.

Problem is, you can't just commit regicide and get away with it. So I do agree that exposing Garon for a monster was the best thing to do.

At this point, we might be getting into just Fates having bad writing. No one ever seems has consequences for their actions; its all written off as "Oh it's all fine, everyone knows Garon was evil and has accepted that their king was killed by their own children!"

Obviously, that's just one example of the concept.

Edited August 26, 2016 by TrueEm

[Abvora]

At this point, we might be getting into just Fates having bad writing. No one ever seems has consequences for their actions; its all written off as "Oh it's all fine, everyone knows Garon was evil and has accepted that their king was killed by their own children!"

Obviously, that's just one example of the concept.

I thought it was universally understood that Fates had bad writing? :P

[WinterOkami]

Wow, I don't know how it ended being a debate how stupid Azura is haha.

Quick note: I think I figured out this for Kagero, checking her My Castle quotes could work to make her a Yamato Nadeshiko and also on other support conversations that show how devoted she is to others and think less about herself.

Thank you to each and everyone of you for the contribution to make this list as accurate as possible only 1 character remains and that is Nina, I hope you can lend me your strength one more time on this one.

[Thane]

Garon was going to invade Hoshido with or without Corrin and Azura, and trying to fight Garon directly wouldn't accomplish anything except getting them killed (unless they have the Shadow Yato, which requires the cooperation of their brothers). Azura knows that Garon is working for Anankos and wants to stop him as quickly as possible by any means necessary, even if it means invading Hoshido. Going along with the invasion was the only reasonable way to stop him, with the "bonus" of being able to work against him and minimize the damage he does.

She doesn't bring anyone to Valla or tell them about Anankos because they can't do anything to stop him unless Nohr and Hoshido work together, which is unlikely unless Corrin refuses to choose a side. They can't even get to Valla past the game's halfway point, so Azura would rather let everyone live in blissful ignorance and not burden them with her problems that they can't do anything about (so it's not the "right" choice, but is understandable given her circumstances). By the end of Birthright and Conquest the winning nation is probably strong enough to repel any Vallite invasion, and Anankos's plan to have Nohr and Hoshido destroy each other for him has failed.

This explanation makes no sense. You're effectively saying that Azura just took a guess that Corrin wouldn't be able to get everyone to work together, so they joined an invasion instead.

Keep in mind that they had the perfect opportunity to talk to everyone - the Hoshidan siblings included - after they so unjustly slaughtered Zola, but Corrin spent the evening making jokes instead. I simply don't understand why you'd argue that they had no choice but to follow Garon's orders instead of, I don't know, working together with their siblings to put an end to him without invading an innocent nation.

It's not understandable that Azura just withholds such vital information, especially if they're going to have a chance at stopping Anankos after the war when both countries are weakened and Anankos still has Sumeragi running around with the power to blow up entire cities.

You don't see a problem with yours? She had two choices, but the situation she was in made one of them unviable. The army was not going to delay rescuing their crown prince and second/third prince on her say-so--she's not in charge and she's still distrusted among Hoshidans. And once they were rescued, Ryoma and Takumi were not going to detour to the Canyon and extend the amount of time Hoshido is destroyed on a vague "I'll tell you when we get there". The only reason Corrin listens to her in REV is because he's Corrin and they were desperate.

No, I don't; you're the one who's trying to defend a woman who chose not to save the world via arguments that don't hold up to scrutiny. You said it yourself; in Revelation it was just her, Corrin and Felicia/Jakob, and they got there on their own in what we can only assume is little time, or else they would've been caught by either the Nohrians or the Hoshidans. Azura withholds information that concerns the fate of the entire world, it's not just something you can brush aside. The fact that they have more allies in Birthright is an argument in favor of why they should go to Valla, not against it.

Why does she and Corrin have to search for Takumi and Ryouma immediately? They don't go with them in the beginning, instead going to a hospital to check up on Sakura.

Because in Birthright, they have obligations to the army and Hoshido which they have to fulfill, or else be labelled deserters and traitors. In Revelation, she and Corrin are on their own.

Do you have any proof of this? Do you have any proof that implies that Azura wouldn't be able to take them to the ravine because of that? The Hoshidan siblings trust Azura, and for some reason Corrin as well.

But there are people alive who still know about him (Selena and Odin, possible Laslow) and people who can still stop him. Hoshido and Nohr have time to recover their strength and forge better relationships so they can unite against him, whereas during the game they were at war and weren't likely to make peace.

Weren't you the one who brought up epilogues earlier? They leave immediately afterwards.

How do you unite against a threat you don't know exists that can strike at any time? Did you see what happened in chapter five?

Also, and correct me if I'm wrong on this one, but the Rainbow Sage is dead by then.

Is it ever stated that the weapons can only be used by the direct descendant of the previous wielder? I know only members the royal family can use them, but if any member can be born with the ability to use it, it stands to reason Camilla could have a child able to use Siegfried, or that Leo could have a second kid able to do the same. And keep in mind that Azura didn't know that they'd need Siegfried to make the Omega Yato, or that it was even key to killing Anankos in the first place--they only learn about that from the Rainbow Dragon.

Your explanations are, again, filled with "ifs" and "maybes" that don't further the debate - I could just as easily say Leo and Camilla became depressed after the war in Birthright and didn't have enough time to have any kids. Violà, end of the Nohrian royal family, and the world is now unable to resist Anankos in the slightest. That's also one possibility, not that I believe it, but sitting here speculating about characters who might be able to pop up while Anankos twiddles his thumbs because Azura didn't tell anyone about Valla is pointless.

A minority group that was able to kidnap her right out of Hoshido's castle, evade any pursuing Hoshidan soldiers, get into Nohr, and then fight off Corrin's forces? That sounds like a bigger faction to me. Being treated poorly doesn't justify it, but it does mean she no longer owes them anything.

I really don't know how to reply to this. I'm just so shocked by this reasoning that words actually fail me.

[Azure Sen]

A minority group that was able to kidnap her right out of Hoshido's castle, evade any pursuing Hoshidan soldiers, get into Nohr, and then fight off Corrin's forces? That sounds like a bigger faction to me. Being treated poorly doesn't justify it, but it does mean she no longer owes them anything.

All of this is speculation, with no evidence provided in-game to back it up; all Azura mentions is that a group of soldiers captured her and took her to Dragonfall. Not to mention that Hoshido's occupation of Fort Dragonfall had nothing to do with Azura's kidnapping.

Edited August 26, 2016 by AzureSen

[Abvora]

No, I don't; you're the one who's trying to defend a woman who chose not to save the world via arguments that don't hold up to scrutiny. You said it yourself; in Revelation it was just her, Corrin and Felicia/Jakob, and they got there on their own in what we can only assume is little time, or else they would've been caught by either the Nohrians or the Hoshidans. Azura withholds information that concerns the fate of the entire world, it's not just something you can brush aside. The fact that they have more allies in Birthright is an argument in favor of why they should go to Valla, not against it.

Why does she and Corrin have to search for Takumi and Ryouma immediately? They don't go with them in the beginning, instead going to a hospital to check up on Sakura.

Do you have any proof of this? Do you have any proof that implies that Azura wouldn't be able to take them to the ravine because of that? The Hoshidan siblings trust Azura, and for some reason Corrin as well.

Weren't you the one who brought up epilogues earlier? They leave immediately afterwards.

How do you unite against a threat you don't know exists that can strike at any time? Did you see what happened in chapter five?

Also, and correct me if I'm wrong on this one, but the Rainbow Sage is dead by then.

Your explanations are, again, filled with "ifs" and "maybes" that don't further the debate - I could just as easily say Leo and Camilla became depressed after the war in Birthright and didn't have enough time to have any kids. Violà, end of the Nohrian royal family, and the world is now unable to resist Anankos in the slightest. That's also one possibility, not that I believe it, but sitting here speculating about characters who might be able to pop up while Anankos twiddles his thumbs because Azura didn't tell anyone about Valla is pointless.

I really don't know how to reply to this. I'm just so shocked by this reasoning that words actually fail me.

You keep saying my arguments don't hold up to scrutiny, but you don't say how. You keep ignoring my point that she was in a situation where she could not bring the army to the canyon because they had other, immediate concerns--saving Ryoma and Takumi, and protecting Hoshido from invasion. You keep ignoring the fact that the army is not going to listen to a political prisoner asking them to jump off a canyon. You keep ignoring the fact that Azura's not omniscient and she doesn't know she won't survive the war, and just maybe assumed she'd have time to tell them later, so decided to focus on the problems they have right now.

It's because it was just her, Corrin and Felicia/Jakob in REV that they got there so quickly. Travelling in a group of three people is a lot faster than travelling with a massive army, where you have more tents/supplies/etc to pick up, more soldiers to ensure are in line, people moving at different paces, and so on. Yes, she should worry about saving the world, but it does her no good to tell them about Valla now if they lose Hoshido doing so, because they need its soldiers to fight Anankos.

They go to Fort Jinya because it's short-staffed, according to Sakura. Again, army obligations assigning them to duties.

Yes, I do have proof. It's called history. Desertion in any military force, at any time period, has always been regarded as a crime. Fire Emblem is no exception to this--Heath in FE7 is branded a traitor for desertion even if it was for good reasons, for example. The Hoshidan siblings trust her and Corrin, but would they keep trusting them if they deserted during a rescue mission to rescue Takumi, or during an invasion of their former home countries? She doesn't know, so she doesn't take the chance.

From what's said in Chapter 5, Ryoma and the others are able to see the soldiers. It wouldn't take much guesswork to figure out they work for some third faction interested in destroying both Hoshido and Nohr.

In BR the Sage is still alive.

Your argument is also full of assumptions, that Leo and Camilla aren't in fact smart and politically savvy enough to know that the Nohrian royal line needs to continue and wouldn't try to ensure it's continuation even if depressed. But yes, this is a pointless argument since it's too much speculation. My original point was that Xander himself isn't needed for the Fire Emblem's creation, just his sword, and that it can't be held against Azura since she didn't know about the Fire Emblem at all.

All of this is speculation, with no evidence provided in-game to back it up. Not to mention that Hoshido's occupation of Fort Dragonfall had nothing to do with Azura's kidnapping.

Azura: But when the war started, everything changed. After you, a prince/princess of Hoshido, sided with Nohr, the Hoshidans wished to banish me. The general consensus was that nobody with ties to the enemy could be trusted.

[...]

Azura: Ryoma and the others stood up for me. They tried their best to protect me. But one day a group of Hoshidan soldiers captured me and took me here.

Bolded for emphasis. It sounds like most of Hoshido was in support of her ejection and that the only ones defending her were the royal siblings. That doesn't sound like a small faction.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Abvora

[Azure Sen]

Bolded for emphasis. It sounds like most of Hoshido was in support of her ejection and that the only ones defending her were the royal siblings. That doesn't sound like a small faction.

I was arguing that there was no evidence that her abduction was as extravagant an affair as you portrayed it and had nothing to do with the occupation of Dragonfall, hence my edit to clarify.

Edited August 26, 2016 by AzureSen

[Abvora]

I was arguing that there was no evidence that her abduction was as extravagant an affair as you portrayed it and had nothing to do with the occupation of Dragonfall, hence my edit to clarify.

My apologies. I assumed that because they were in Dragonfall they were the ones who had taken it, but you're right, there's nothing stating that.

[Lightchao42]

At this point, we might be getting into just Fates having bad writing. No one ever seems has consequences for their actions; its all written off as "Oh it's all fine, everyone knows Garon was evil and has accepted that their king was killed by their own children!"

Obviously, that's just one example of the concept.

Considering that Garon was fond of murdering anyone that even remotely opposes him (or even people that don't), he was probably unpopular and therefore wouldn't be missed much, even without the "actually a monster" thing.

This explanation makes no sense. You're effectively saying that Azura just took a guess that Corrin wouldn't be able to get everyone to work together, so they joined an invasion instead.

Keep in mind that they had the perfect opportunity to talk to everyone - the Hoshidan siblings included - after they so unjustly slaughtered Zola, but Corrin spent the evening making jokes instead. I simply don't understand why you'd argue that they had no choice but to follow Garon's orders instead of, I don't know, working together with their siblings to put an end to him without invading an innocent nation.

How exactly would Corrin get them to work together? In Izumo, either Corrin would say "Hey, our king is actually a monster, so let us take over your country so we can expose him, okay?" to the Hoshidans, or they could tell the Nohrians that Garon is a monster and consequently get ignored, exiled, or executed for treason in the process. Corrin could join Hoshido to fight the invasion, but that would require betraying the Nohrian royals, which Corrin doesn't want to do.

Following Garon's orders obviously wasn't the only option, but it was the option that was most likely to stop Garon without betraying Corrin's Nohrian siblings.

It's not understandable that Azura just withholds such vital information, especially if they're going to have a chance at stopping Anankos after the war when both countries are weakened and Anankos still has Sumeragi running around with the power to blow up entire cities.

No one can actually get to Valla and stop Anankos even if they wanted to, since the passageway in the Bottomless Canyon opens and closes every few decades (in-game it closes around chapters 15-18). Whether or not this applies to Anankos's minions or not is unclear, but if it does it means that he has to wait several more decades before he can attempt another invasion. I know that you like the "Sumeragi can blow up cities" argument, but he has to use Ganglari to do so, and Sumeragi is hardly invincible since he's forced to retreat after being defeated by Ryoma (if the RNG favors him) or Corrin in chapter 5.

Thank you to each and everyone of you for the contribution to make this list as accurate as possible only 1 character remains and that is Nina, I hope you can lend me your strength one more time on this one.

Does "frequently fantasizes men together" count as a cliché?

Edited August 26, 2016 by Lightchao42

[UNLEASH IT]

Thank you to each and everyone of you for the contribution to make this list as accurate as possible only 1 character remains and that is Nina, I hope you can lend me your strength one more time on this one.

Well Nina is a fujoshi.

Also holy fuck, what happened to this thread?

Edited August 26, 2016 by Chad Thundercock

[Dangerus]

Well Nina is a fujoshi

Yeah, and a 'mojyo' or unpopular girl. Ever since Watamote came out, the 'Creepy fujoshi' archetype is becoming a trend with love interests. I've played Artificial Academy 2 (I am sorry) and I've made a 'mojyo' archetype character myself. Add the fact that the English dub voice somehow still gave her a seductive voice like her father and it's an odd thought to say this but... Nina gets to become someone's dream girl the same reason Tharja got to be someone's dream girl.

I should have mentioned this with Rhajat since she also plays up the 'Creepy fangirl' archetype as well. (Especially since Hex Maniac girls are also popular in Pokemon now as well...)

[Thane]

You keep saying my arguments don't hold up to scrutiny, but you don't say how. You keep ignoring my point that she was in a situation where she could not bring the army to the canyon because they had other, immediate concerns--saving Ryoma and Takumi, and protecting Hoshido from invasion. You keep ignoring the fact that the army is not going to listen to a political prisoner asking them to jump off a canyon. You keep ignoring the fact that Azura's not omniscient and she doesn't know she won't survive the war, and just maybe assumed she'd have time to tell them later, so decided to focus on the problems they have right now

What are you talking about? I've adressed your points, but you seem to ignore the answers. So, let me list the answers to what you just brought up so you cannot possibly miss it:

First of all, why would just Corrin and Azura need to save Ryouma and Takumi? Why not leave that to Hinoka? If they were so needed, why didn't they join Takumi and Ryouma immediately?

Secondly, where is your proof that the army is not going to listen to her when the Hoshidan siblings trust her? I've already asked that, but you've ignored that point.

Thirdly, Corrin listens to Azura in Revelation and jumps down the ravine alongside Felicia/Jakob - why would this be different in Birthright when they have more allies they can immediately show the truth to?

Fourthly, exactly, Azura is not omniscient, which is why she should tell them all that she actually does know - which is everything worth knowing about the true mastermind behind the conflict - before she dies. She also knows that the song drains her spirit or whatever it is, so she knows she's on a timer if she keeps using it. Azura also knows that the conflict "right now" and Anankos are intertwined.

It's because it was just her, Corrin and Felicia/Jakob in REV that they got there so quickly. Travelling in a group of three people is a lot faster than travelling with a massive army, where you have more tents/supplies/etc to pick up, more soldiers to ensure are in line, people moving at different paces, and so on. Yes, she should worry about saving the world, but it does her no good to tell them about Valla now if they lose Hoshido doing so, because they need its soldiers to fight Anankos

Again, you fail to explain why they can't make a quick detour to it in Birthright when they manage to do so in Revelation. Picking up Sakura and her retainers, for instance, wouldn't slow them down that much, and they would definitely not lose Hoshido immediately - hell, if anything, Hoshido should initially be in a better position to stave off the Nohrians because they drove the siblings off.

They go to Fort Jinya because it's short-staffed, according to Sakura. Again, army obligations assigning them to duties.

And your proof that they'd be traitors if they left after that is...where? What could Azura and Corrin even do to help? They didn't know the place would be attacked. Are they assigning them to cleaning duty? So much for Hoshido being on the brink of destruction immediately following chapter six.

Yes, I do have proof. It's called history. Desertion in any military force, at any time period, has always been regarded as a crime. Fire Emblem is no exception to this--Heath in FE7 is branded a traitor for desertion even if it was for good reasons, for example. The Hoshidan siblings trust her and Corrin, but would they keep trusting them if they deserted during a rescue mission to rescue Takumi, or during an invasion of their former home countries? She doesn't know, so she doesn't take the chance.

You're trying to use other games and real life examples to something like this? It doesn't work that way! Sakura, Hinoka and Ryouma implicitly trust Corrin the second they set foot in Hoshido; why would they go against them if they have something super important they need to do after they staved off the first Nohrian invasion? It doesn't make any sense.

It's nonsensical to try and apply real life logic and rules in that fashion to a video game, especially in one as poorly constructed as Fates. You might as well try and explain why everyone in the army is hot, has fantastic hygiene and white teeth even though they're in a setting inspired by the European Middle Age.

You don't know what she thinks, no one here does. What we do know is that she's withholding information that's vital to the entire bloody world.

From what's said in Chapter 5, Ryoma and the others are able to see the soldiers. It wouldn't take much guesswork to figure out they work for some third faction interested in destroying both Hoshido and Nohr.

And in Revelation there's a chapter where they can't. If anything, it's more probable that they'd blame each other for the attacks - you know, like they did after chapter five.

In BR the Sage is still alive.

I see, thank you. However, didn't he say he was about to die?

You also complained about me ignoring your arguments; where are your answers for the Awakening trio leaving, as mentioned in the epilogues?

Your argument is also full of assumptions, that Leo and Camilla aren't in fact smart and politically savvy enough to know that the Nohrian royal line needs to continue and wouldn't try to ensure it's continuation even if depressed. But yes, this is a pointless argument since it's too much speculation. My original point was that Xander himself isn't needed for the Fire Emblem's creation, just his sword, and that it can't be held against Azura since she didn't know about the Fire Emblem at all.

Like I said, it was not something i believed but only used to prove how meaningless it is to discuss "what ifs" after the war where we have absolutely nothing to go on.

Right, but Azura is dead, and so is most likely the Rainbow Sage, and the Awakening trio left - there's no one left to tell anyone about Valla and Anankos.

How exactly would Corrin get them to work together? In Izumo, either Corrin would say "Hey, our king is actually a monster, so let us take over your country so we can expose him, okay?" to the Hoshidans, or they could tell the Nohrians that Garon is a monster and consequently get ignored, exiled, or executed for treason in the process. Corrin could join Hoshido to fight the invasion, but that would require betraying the Nohrian royals, which Corrin doesn't want to do.

Following Garon's orders obviously wasn't the only option, but it was the option that was most likely to stop Garon without betraying Corrin's Nohrian siblings.

You're trivializing the importance of talking to the other characters. There was no reason not to try and convince the Nohrian siblings about Garon's misdeeds - yes, even with a paranoid Xander. They should've known what Corrin's ultimate plan was, which would've allowed them to work more efficiently, if they now were so intent on limiing the destruction caused by Garon.

Secondly, why wouldn't the Hoshidans believe Corrin? Ryouma was desperate to get them home, and Hinoka instantly believes them after having been defeated while her country is burning all around her. Sure, Takumi would hate it, and it's impossible to know how he in his corrupted state would react to Corrin trying to actually use his head and tongue for once, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try - the fact remains that Corrin is given a golden opportunity and squanders it on making jokes and saying shit like "golly gee, I hope we can do this again soon" while in the middle of a war.

So instead they betray their Hoshidan siblings and cause far more harm than in Birthright, where they directly opposed Garon, you mean? I'm pretty sure there could be some middle ground if people in this bloody game just talked to one another.

No one can actually get to Valla and stop Anankos even if they wanted to, since the passageway in the Bottomless Canyon opens and closes every few decades (in-game it closes around chapters 15-18). Whether or not this applies to Anankos's minions or not is unclear, but if it does it means that he has to wait several more decades before he can attempt another invasion. I know that you like the "Sumeragi can blow up cities" argument, but he has to use Ganglari to do so, and Sumeragi is hardly invincible since he's forced to retreat after being defeated by Ryoma (if the RNG favors him) or Corrin in chapter 5.

You mean like how they got there in Revelation twice?

You're forgetting about Sumeragi blowing up another city in Revelation. He obviously didn't need to rest for long, and whatever he needs to blow up cities can't be that hard to come by.

[Azure Sen]

Yeah, and a 'mojyo' or unpopular girl. Ever since Watamote came out, the 'Creepy fujoshi' archetype is becoming a trend with love interests. I've played Artificial Academy 2 (I am sorry) and I've made a 'mojyo' archetype character myself. Add the fact that the English dub voice somehow still gave her a seductive voice like her father and it's an odd thought to say this but... Nina gets to become someone's dream girl the same reason Tharja got to be someone's dream girl.

What? Tomoko from Watamote wasn't a fujoshi, and fujoshis being delusional stalkers has been a trope in anime for a long time before Watamote.

But yeah, one of Nina's defining traits is being a standard fujoshi as commonly portrayed in anime.

Edited August 26, 2016 by AzureSen

[Namarid]

As entertaining as it is to see you guys argue about Azura's actions in fates could you perhaps continue your debate through PMs. The purpose of this thread is to help WinterOkami's list of tropes for the female cast after all.

(Slightly hypocritical since this is my only post in this thread)

Edited August 26, 2016 by Tactician. D

[Abvora]

What are you talking about? I've adressed your points, but you seem to ignore the answers. So, let me list the answers to what you just brought up so you cannot possibly miss it:

First of all, why would just Corrin and Azura need to save Ryouma and Takumi? Why not leave that to Hinoka? If they were so needed, why didn't they join Takumi and Ryouma immediately?

Secondly, where is your proof that the army is not going to listen to her when the Hoshidan siblings trust her? I've already asked that, but you've ignored that point.

Thirdly, Corrin listens to Azura in Revelation and jumps down the ravine alongside Felicia/Jakob - why would this be different in Birthright when they have more allies they can immediately show the truth to?

Fourthly, exactly, Azura is not omniscient, which is why she should tell them all that she actually does know - which is everything worth knowing about the true mastermind behind the conflict - before she dies. She also knows that the song drains her spirit or whatever it is, so she knows she's on a timer if she keeps using it. Azura also knows that the conflict "right now" and Anankos are intertwined.

Again, you fail to explain why they can't make a quick detour to it in Birthright when they manage to do so in Revelation. Picking up Sakura and her retainers, for instance, wouldn't slow them down that much, and they would definitely not lose Hoshido immediately - hell, if anything, Hoshido should initially be in a better position to stave off the Nohrians because they drove the siblings off.

And your proof that they'd be traitors if they left after that is...where? What could Azura and Corrin even do to help? They didn't know the place would be attacked. Are they assigning them to cleaning duty? So much for Hoshido being on the brink of destruction immediately following chapter six.

You're trying to use other games and real life examples to something like this? It doesn't work that way! Sakura, Hinoka and Ryouma implicitly trust Corrin the second they set foot in Hoshido; why would they go against them if they have something super important they need to do after they staved off the first Nohrian invasion? It doesn't make any sense.

It's nonsensical to try and apply real life logic and rules in that fashion to a video game, especially in one as poorly constructed as Fates. You might as well try and explain why everyone in the army is hot, has fantastic hygiene and white teeth even though they're in a setting inspired by the European Middle Age.

You don't know what she thinks, no one here does. What we do know is that she's withholding information that's vital to the entire bloody world.

And in Revelation there's a chapter where they can't. If anything, it's more probable that they'd blame each other for the attacks - you know, like they did after chapter five.

I see, thank you. However, didn't he say he was about to die?

You also complained about me ignoring your arguments; where are your answers for the Awakening trio leaving, as mentioned in the epilogues?

Like I said, it was not something i believed but only used to prove how meaningless it is to discuss "what ifs" after the war where we have absolutely nothing to go on.

Right, but Azura is dead, and so is most likely the Rainbow Sage, and the Awakening trio left - there's no one left to tell anyone about Valla and Anankos.

Because they care about them? As for why not leaving it to Hinoka, they don't know that she's split off to rescue them--she does that on her own.

In the fact that there are still Hoshidans who don't trust her and try to kill her, despite what the royals have said (re: her supports with Subaki and Saizo). More than that, listening to her and going to the Canyon means abandoning the rescue of their princes for--as far as they know--no good reason. Can you see Saizo and Kagero doing that, or Oboro and Hinata?

I didn't ignore the point, I merged it with the answer above. The fact that not everyone trusts her and the fact that they have other things to worry about are why the army would be unwilling to follow her there. Corrin jumps into the ravine because they need a place to hide out (and because Corrin trusts everyone). But in BR, the army thinks Ryoma/Takumi is in danger and wants to rescue them as quickly as possible, and then later prioritizes invading Nohr to end the war as quickly as possible.

This is again related to the above--Azura chooses not to share what she knows because they have immediate problems, and sharing what she knows requires ignoring those problems, which most people are unlikely to want to do. She doesn't know she's going to die, so she doesn't see a reason to share everything right now.

It wouldn't be a "quick detour" to Hoshido because they have more soldiers with them and would need more time to get there, unlike in REV where the smaller numbers meant faster travel. It's not just Sakura and her retainers--they're the only ones who join you gameplay wise, but plotwise there's an army mobilizing to find the princes.

Orochi: Our tactician, Yukimura, is readying the troops to march on Izumo.

It's nonsensical only when there hasn't been a precedent for it. Desertion in the Fire Emblem series has always been regarded as treason, and that's no different here. Camilla's regarded as a traitor after splitting off to join Corrin in REV, judging by her battle dialogue with Xander, and Ryoma states as much the same to Kagero in their battle dialogue. Even taking a late-night walk is enough for Corrin to get scrutinized in CQ.

Just because we don't know what a character is thinking doesn't mean we can't infer from what we know of them. From what we know of Azura, she has a generally dour view of the world, is still unpopular in Hoshido, and hasn't opened up even to some of the Hoshidan siblings (re: supports with Ryoma and Takumi). It's easy to infer a character with those traits fearing suspicion or poor treatment.

He does, but he doesn't say how soon "soon" is.

I was going to argue they could come back, but I realized that was more meaningless speculation and decided not to.

Corrin apparently found some "obscure texts" about Anankos (re: REV supports with Azura), so there's at least some information about him available, and in BR/CQ the siblings hear his name and wonder if he had a role in this. So there are at least other ways to find out about Anankos, even if not Valla.

EDIT:

As entertaining as it is to see you guys argue about Azura's actions in fates could you perhaps continue your debate through PMs. The purpose of this thread is to help WinterOkami's list of tropes for the female cast after all.

(Slightly hypocritical since this is my only post in this thread)

I posted mine almost right after yours, but you're right, sorry.

Who was the one left? Nina? Her trope is easily the Yaoi Fangirl/fujoshi.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Abvora

[Dangerus]

As entertaining as it is to see you guys argue about Azura's actions in fates could you perhaps continue your debate through PMs. The purpose of this thread is to help WinterOkami's list of tropes for the female cast after all.

Couldn't have said it myself. I actually hope for a male edition so I can contribute more.

[WinterOkami]

As entertaining as it is to see you guys argue about Azura's actions in fates could you perhaps continue your debate through PMs. The purpose of this thread is to help WinterOkami's list of tropes for the female cast after all.

(Slightly hypocritical since this is my only post in this thread)

Oh thanks but I didn't mind that but thanks for helping out.

Couldn't have said it myself. I actually hope for a male edition so I can contribute more.

There may be a male edition though it will be tougher. I'll have to do a lot more researches because it's easier to study females when you are a male yourself.

I'll have to take a lot of studies. But I'll do my best.

So it's the last one we need, only Nina and we're done for the count.