Religion Ranting Topic

[solrocknroll]

eclipse's argument is so unsound

say that there's a religious text against people with neuro-deficiencies

why would anyone defend turning away someone with autism or down syndrome for "religious reasons?" Those are all ways people are born so it's not like anyone ever has a choice in this matter.

or what about if someone felt that people who are paraplegic are "unworthy?" why would anyone justify that treatment

I remember seeing around the time of the posts where Germany had banned face veils and yet you brought up that it's only a good thing to ban if women are forced to wear them.

That's part of Islam. So why are you justifying discrimination but not the control over wives? They're both part of religious freedom. And they're both terrible ideas. So maybe we should treat them equally.

MOD EDIT: This was originally part of another topic. TC, if you want to make this more creative, feel free to do so, BUT you're getting a none-too-friendly response from me because your ability to read backwards and respect the feelings of others seems nonexistent.

Edited August 27, 2016 by eggclipse

[Life]

eclipse's argument is so unsound

say that there's a religious text against people with neuro-deficiencies

why would anyone defend turning away someone with autism or down syndrome for "religious reasons?" Those are all ways people are born so it's not like anyone ever has a choice in this matter.

or what about if someone felt that people who are paraplegic are "unworthy?" why would anyone justify that treatment

I remember seeing around the time of the posts where Germany had banned face veils and yet you brought up that it's only a good thing to ban if women are forced to wear them.

That's part of Islam. So why are you justifying discrimination but not the control over wives? They're both part of religious freedom. And they're both terrible ideas. So maybe we should treat them equally.

"Say that..." - How about we don't say that and create a hypothetical that isn't grounded in reality?

As for your last paragraph, I agree completely. And I've already stated that Islam is an ideology with a God and a Prophet as opposed to a faith-based religion. Since it is not based on faith (since the general idea is either conversion or death in the fundamental sense), freedom of religion doesn't apply and Islam doesn't get a free pass.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Right Wing Nut Job

[solrocknroll]

"Say that..." - How about we don't say that and create a hypothetical that isn't grounded in reality?

As for your last paragraph, I agree completely. And I've already stated that Islam is an ideology with a God and a Prophet as opposed to a faith-based religion. Since it is not based on faith (since the general idea is either conversion or death in the fundamental sense), freedom of religion doesn't apply and Islam doesn't get a free pass.

except there are already people who discriminate based on something like having Down syndrome. it's just not religiously based.

But what is the difference between discriminating because you can and discrimination based on religion? Religious freedom does not give you the ability to make that choice. A hypothetical isn't really the best way to convey that, but it's also the best thing I can think of.

As a whole, I don't particularly agree with most of what Islam says, but I still believe that people who are peaceful should not be punished for what their religious text says. It's what they personally do that matters.

[Life]

As a whole, I don't particularly agree with most of what Islam says, but I still believe that people who are peaceful should not be punished for what their religious text says. It's what they personally do that matters.

So why do you have such a hard-on for making Christians suffer?

All they're saying is "hey, I don't want to make a cake for your gay wedding". Meanwhile, Islamic countries give out the death penalty for being homosexual.

Be consistant.

Edit: Remember, I'm not even Christian or religious.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Right Wing Nut Job

[Time the Crestfallen]

So why do you have such a hard-on for making Christians suffer?

All they're saying is "hey, I don't want to make a cake for your gay wedding". Meanwhile, Islamic countries give out the death penalty for being homosexual.

Be consistant.

Edit: Remember, I'm not even Christian or religious.

And why should there be an 'acceptable' level of discrimination other than non-existent? You compare the cake to what goes on in fundamentalist Islamic countries as if that somehow makes Sweet Cakes discrimination acceptable, but it's like asking someone if they'd rather eat horse shit or dog shit. Sure, eating the dog shit probably isn't as bad, but you're still eating shit either way.

[Tryhard]

I appreciate discussion, but I get the feeling that you're either unwilling or unable to tell yourself "gee perhaps the other side has a point", and go from there.

But at this point, I don't think you're going to listen, because you ignored what I said about context. In other words, I'm wasting my time with this. I've made my point, and it stands. Argue if you must, but what you've said has only cemented my own stance in my mind.

To be blunt, I am seeing this more from you on this point than anyone else from my own perspective.

I also still don't see how Islam isn't a religion. It's a religion by any definition.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Tryhard

[Life]

I also still don't see how Islam isn't a religion. It's a religion by any definition.

Religion requires faith. Where is the faith component in Islam?

And explain to me why conversion from Islam carries the death penalty when Judaism/Buddism/Hinduism/Christianity don't.

And why should there be an 'acceptable' level of discrimination other than non-existent? You compare the cake to what goes on in fundamentalist Islamic countries as if that somehow makes Sweet Cakes discrimination acceptable, but it's like asking someone if they'd rather eat horse shit or dog shit. Sure, eating the dog shit probably isn't as bad, but you're still eating shit either way.

I'm saying two things:

1) That you are simply arguing for reverse descrimination. You make it seem that a religious belief is outdated and barbaric. And anyone who follows Judeo-Christian values are deeply bigoted people because it's fun.

2) Religion is a god-given right and is outlined in the Constitution. If you have a problem that, then say "People should not have the right to freedom of religion".

Most of your arguments are based on "they're being a dick". Maybe they are. Or maybe you shoving an idea in their face that makes them feel uncomfortable is an issue for them.

You can't pretend to be the moral superior here when you do the same thing that you accuse them of doing.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Right Wing Nut Job

[Tryhard]

Religion requires faith. Where is the faith component in Islam?

Belief/faith in prophets, a divine being and the religious texts.

Even if you view it as an ideology rather than a religion, the majority of the world, including most Muslims themselves, and official definitions directly cite it as a religion. Political Islam is a different thing.

And explain to me why conversion from Islam carries the death penalty when Judaism/Buddism/Hinduism/Christianity don't.

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i mean, i don't like the islam idea, but it sounds like a religion to me.

unless i'm being ignorant.

[Life]

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

I can toss out quote number 3 right now due to it not being in the Torah. Next.

The other two talk about "other gods". Which refers to physical manifestations of a god (a statue).

So "don't pray to statues or you die". Not "don't be religious or you die". Try again.

I used to be religious, dude.

[Flee Fleet!]

Islam is a religion, and this is coming from a Muslim guy from a Muslim family.

And like Tryhard said:

Belief/faith in prophets, a divine being and the religious texts.

Even if you view it as an ideology rather than a religion, the majority of the world, including most Muslims themselves, and official definitions directly cite it as a religion. Political Islam is a different thing.

[Tryhard]

I can toss out quote number 3 right now due to it not being in the Torah. Next.

The other two talk about "other gods". Which refers to physical manifestations of a god (a statue).

So "don't pray to statues or you die". Not "don't be religious or you die". Try again.

I used to be religious, dude.

You asked why Judaism/Buddism/Hinduism/Christianity doesn't have the death penalty for apostates, not just the Torah. I'm not familiar at all with Buddhism or Hinduism, personally.

Yes, idolatry is one of the tenets, but I would argue that the religion advocating the killing for the worship of a statue (in which regard, idolatry is extended to more than just statues, such as worshiping materialism and by its definition could be taken to mean "worshiping any other false god" in the most extreme) is just as bad lol.

And perhaps its my interpretation, but I don't read it as solely idolatry - it directly makes reference to "gods of other religions". If you want to say that it rarely makes reference or enforces a death penalty for apostasy, then yes, but this could easily be taken at face value to mean that apostates should be put to death as per Deuteronomy.

It goes on to say:

"...the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God."

So directly the destruction and killing of entire cities.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Tryhard

[Life]

You asked why Judaism/Buddism/Hinduism/Christianity doesn't have the death penalty for apostates, not just the Torah. I'm not familiar at all with Buddhism or Hinduism, personally.

Yes, idolatry is one of the tenets, but I would argue that the religion advocating the killing for the worship of a statue (in which regard, idolatry is extended to more than just statues, such as worshiping materialism and by its definition could be taken to mean "worshiping any other false god" in the most extreme) is just as bad lol.

And perhaps its my interpretation, but I don't read it as solely idolatry - it directly makes reference to "gods of other religions". If you want to say that it rarely makes reference or enforces a death penalty for apostasy, then yes, but this could easily be taken at face value to mean that apostates should be put to death as per Deuteronomy.

It goes on to say:

"...the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God."

So directly the destruction and killing of entire cities.

If you're going to quote my own book at me, you play by our rules.

First of all, Judaism is not taken at face value. That's your first mistake. There is not a single rule from the Torah that does not have paragraphs of commentaries and arguments over even a single line. That is the ultra-orthodox view.

Next, your interpretation is wrong. As in factually wrong. As in not even the Naturi Karta believe that.

Regarding other nation, only the natiom that it is acceptable to exterminate is Amalek. But since nobody knows today who is Amalek, we don't. But the religion doesn't view converts as apostates.

At the end of the day, you don't get to make up interpretations that even the ultra-orthodox don't believe in.

[Flee Fleet!]

Just saying, and no offence, but don't Hindus and Buddhist pray to statues AKA physical manifestations of the gods they believe in?

Also, just pointing out, I'm pretty sure all religions (that is, Christianity,Judaism and Islam, and maybe other religions...) forbid LGBT and conversion to other religions(that is, not just conversion to some religion which involves idolatry). And I'm pretty sure doing so, despite which religion you had chosen before, would be punishable by death.

And I'm also pretty sure Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have similarities in their teachings and beliefs ( which I guess anyone can point out if they're willing too or know all three religions..)

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong about something here.

[Tryhard]

My point is not that people today believe it, just that it is rightfully disregarded now.

You were saying that Islam is not a religion and instead an ideology because of this, not that I really see the relation anyway, but it was to show that traditionally other religions could have death penalties for similar offenses.

Nobody is really arguing that people thinking that apostates from Islam (or any other religion, but Islam is the vast majority of states that do so, one being India (blasphemy), apparently: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countries-still-outlaw-apostasy-and-blasphemy/)should be killed in the modern world is an acceptable view.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Tryhard

[Life]

Just saying, and no offence, but don't Hindus and Buddhist pray to statues AKA physical manifestations of the gods they believe in?

Also, just pointing out, I'm pretty sure all religions (that is, Christianity,Judaism and Islam, and maybe other religions...) forbid LGBT and conversion to other religions(that is, not just conversion to some religion which involves idolatry). And I'm pretty sure doing so, despite which religion you had chosen before, would be punishable by death.

And I'm also pretty sure Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have similarities in their teachings and beliefs ( which I guess anyone can point out if they're willing too or know all three religions..)

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong about something here.

Good arguments.

The logic behind it for Judaism is that because the Temple does not exist, we cannot force judgment upon someone who has broken a law like idolatry. When the Temple is rebuilt by the Messiah, then God will allow us to judge the laws as they are written.

Silly, right?

Judaism conforms to the times. Unless you're Haredi but they still don't go lynching gays or anything near fundamental Islam (my landlord is Haredi, for example). The worst you'll get are a few diapers thrown at you.

Nobody is really arguing that people thinking that apostates from Islam (or any other religion) should be killed in the modern world is an acceptable view.

Iran. Edited August 27, 2016 by Right Wing Nut Job

[Tryhard]

Iran.

Yes, Iran exists, but I thought it would be obvious that I was talking about anyone with respectable views here. Does anyone here believe that? Evidently, I have a problem with their state and other countries that outlaw such things, but I don't really see how this all fits together.

[Flee Fleet!]

God will allow us to judge the laws as they are written.

Don't mean to sound rude or be offensive, but this statement confuses me. Why would God allow us to judge the laws when...you know...He's God, the most wise and powerful Being comparable to none? Unless, I read the statement wrong or something.

[Life]

Don't mean to sound rude or be offensive, but this statement confuses me. Why would God allow us to judge the laws when...you know...He's God, the most wise and powerful Being comparable to none? Unless, I read the statement wrong or something.

You missed the part about the Temple.

You literally cut out half the sentence.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Right Wing Nut Job

[Flee Fleet!]

^Ah, sorry, I don't have much knowledge about the Temple, and I only cut half of the sentence since I was only focusing on one part, which is, why allow humans to judge the laws written by God? Again, sorry if I'm acting like an idiot.

Though I guess it's just what your religion has told, so there might not be much of an exact answer....?

Edited August 27, 2016 by Flee Fleet!

[Life]

Yes, Iran exists, but I thought it would be obvious that I was talking about anyone with respectable views here. Does anyone here believe that? Evidently, I have a problem with their state and other countries that outlaw such things, but I don't really see how this all fits together.

It doesn't matter here if it exists elsewhere and that is spreading.

This is fundamental Islam. It takes Muhammed's word as gospel. And personally, I don't see it slowing down.

You're jumping all over the place. Just because you know a few Muslims that don't believe in it doesn't mean all Muslims are like that. The Middle East is proof.

^Ah, sorry, I don't have much knowledge about the Temple, and I only cut half of the sentence since I was only focusing on one part, which is, why allow humans to judge the laws written by God? Again, sorry if I'm acting like an idiot.

Though I guess it's just what your religion has told, so there might not be much of an exact answer....?

Those rules came from God for us to judge on this earth. After that, God will also judge for the world to come. Judaism doesn't believe in a concept of hell and maintains that you are still resposible for your actions on earth.

All I'm doing now is reinforcing why I don't like organized religion even though I do understand it. But it has nothing to do with the topic on hand.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Right Wing Nut Job

[Phoenix Wright]

Belief against war is not a "God-given right". It is an opinion and malleable. If the USA was attacked, I believe that for the sake of your own livelihood, you'd be happy that the military was funded so well.

The right to freedom of religion is about freedom. If you don't believe in religion, that is fine. But you have no right to curtail someone else's belief by attempting to pass laws that would force someone to do something against their religion.

Here's a hypothetical example. Would you pass a law saying that every single citizen must eat bacon?

It's not "morally just" but imposing the government's will on the business against religious beliefs is a form of tyranny.

In your example, the coffee shop would eventually go out of business because eclipse already brought forth evidence showing that businesses that discriminate usually fail.

Even if it the only coffee shop around, coffee is not a fundamental need. Now if you were talking about a fundamental need like food, electricity or hydro, you'd have a point. But since you decided to use the example of a luxury, it seems that you simply do not value the idea of religious freedom.

belief in god is not a "god-given right." it is an opinion and it is malleable. there does not exist "god-given" rights.

the right to freedom of religion is the choice to choose a religion and always be able to worship. that's it.

come up with a better hypothetical. you complain earlier about hypotheticals not being grounded in reality and then ask me this? lol

every law is some form of government tyranny. some tyranny is good. necessary, even.

no she did not! the source did not explain anything having to do with it. it was conjecture on her part. also, a source that focuses on restaurants does not fit the general case of businesses in the united states.

that is nonsense. it seems that there is a general ignorance of what separation of church and state means. on the one hand, it means that religions can't be taxed because that would be an encroachment on the beliefs of the public (somehow, i dunno really, but that's what the supreme court thinks from 200 years ago). on the other, it also means that religions don't get to dictate law: if there exists a law that says you must sell to homosexuals, religious people don't get a free pass to discriminate.

"Say that..." - How about we don't say that and create a hypothetical that isn't grounded in reality?

As for your last paragraph, I agree completely. And I've already stated that Islam is an ideology with a God and a Prophet as opposed to a faith-based religion. Since it is not based on faith (since the general idea is either conversion or death in the fundamental sense), freedom of religion doesn't apply and Islam doesn't get a free pass.

christianity judaism and islam are abrahamic religions that worship and have faith in the same god.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Tryhard]

It doesn't matter here if it exists elsewhere and that is spreading.

This is fundamental Islam. It takes Muhammed's word as gospel. And personally, I don't see it slowing down.

You're jumping all over the place. Just because you know a few Muslims that don't believe in it doesn't mean all Muslims are like that. The Middle East is proof.

I already admitted that I thought fundamental Islam is a problem and that due to the Middle East being so fucked, it tends to be more aggressive and deplorable than other fundamental religious people today. Like, I agree somewhat with what you're saying, even if you think I don't, but I still fail to see how this means that Islam is an ideology and not a religion.

I mean, there have been many Christian literalists. How many times have you heard a radical Christian remark that "homosexuality is an abomination" or other quoting of lines? That's why a lot of Christians tend to disregard the old testament.

And fucking obviously, I don't make any assumptions about how each individual Muslim is. Just the same as when reading this story, I don't think all Jews are like this or the extremist orthodox groups you seem to mention.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.668796

It obviously stands to reason that in addition I don't think all Jews aren't like this.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Tryhard

[Life]

I already admitted that I thought fundamental Islam is a problem and that due to the Middle East being so fucked, it tends to be more aggressive and deplorable than other fundamental religious people today. Like, I agree somewhat with what you're saying, even if you think I don't, but I still fail to see how this means that Islam is an ideology and not a religion.

I mean, there have been many Christian literalists. How many times have you heard a radical Christian remark that "homosexuality is an abomination" or other quoting of lines? That's why a lot of Christians tend to disregard the old testament.

And fucking obviously, I don't make any assumptions about how each individual Muslim is. Just the same as when reading this story, I don't think all Jews are like this or the extremist orthodox groups you seem to mention.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.668796

It obviously stands to reason that in addition I don't think all Jews aren't like this.

It's a good example but I was actually there at the parade when it happened.

Haredi communities turned around and said "this is terrible" when he did it. That didn't happen with say... the Charlie Hebdo slaughter. Remember the moderate response?

"Well, they shouldn't have drawn Muhammed so I don't really feel bad."

That guy tried to do the same thing 10 years prior, was sent to jail and did it again. There isn't widespread teaching of this being good even in extreme camps in Judaism.

Islam is the only religion that teaches that it is acceptable TO take that next step towards violence.

[tuvarkz]

christianity judaism and islam are abrahamic religions that worship and have faith in the same god.

While yes, all three religions are abrahamic and admit that they worship the same god, there is a noticeably distinct characterization (Probably some word fits better, but it doesn't come to my mind) of Yahweh/God/Allah in the Old Testament/Torah, New Testament, and the Koran, respectively. And the Trinity is a very significant divergence that Christianity has in terms of theology.

Edited August 27, 2016 by tuvarkz