General opinions on fates and how it ranks compared to the series

[Avalanche]

I'm honestly not sure what ways Awakening's gameplay was better. Whereas I can name many ways that Fates' gameplay was better: map design including both objectives and enemy placements, lack of ninja reinforcements, better reclass system which makes skill acquisition reasonable in no-grind situations, pair up and dual strike revamps, child PCs being balanced with first gen instead of either hideously overpowered/underpowered depending on playstyle, better weapon balance (even if you don't see tossing weapon durability as a net positive, there are still things like the changes to Hand Axes/Javelins/Nosferatu/Bronze weapons which are welcome) etc.

I perfectly understand preferring Awakening for writing-related reasons (I don't agree, but I can certainly see it) but saying its gameplay is better strikes me as a much harder sell.

Pretty much. Don't get me wrong, I love Awakening, but in terms of pure mechanics, I find it hard to argue that Fates isn't the better game.

[ckc22]

Not really. All of Awakening's broken aspects were toned down to a better level, namely Pair-Up.

Plus Fates has the neato unbreakable weapons, which makes them much more evened out with their effects, and you don't have to keep buying weapons for everyone.

Also bringing back S rank weapons was cool I guess.

Am I forgetting anything?

Unbreakable weapons is at best a preference, and one that I don't happen to share.

Concerning pair-up - Improving something that Awakening introduced isn't praise-worthy it's expected.

I'm honestly not sure what ways Awakening's gameplay was better. Whereas I can name many ways that Fates' gameplay was better: map design including both objectives and enemy placements, lack of ninja reinforcements, better reclass system which makes skill acquisition reasonable in no-grind situations, pair up and dual strike revamps, child PCs being balanced with first gen instead of either hideously overpowered/underpowered depending on playstyle, better weapon balance (even if you don't see tossing weapon durability as a net positive, there are still things like the changes to Hand Axes/Javelins/Nosferatu/Bronze weapons which are welcome) etc.

I perfectly understand preferring Awakening for writing-related reasons (I don't agree, but I can certainly see it) but saying its gameplay is better strikes me as a much harder sell.

Fates is not nearly as interesting from an army building perspective. It's casualized to the point of irrelevance. The evidence is all over, look at the Awakening pairing thread vs the one here.

I think Fates should have focused on a 11/10 amazing experience instead of making three 6s.

Personally Fates has turned this into a wait-and-see series instead of a preorder series for me.

[Avalanche]

Unbreakable weapons is at best a preference, and one that I don't happen to share.

Concerning pair-up - Improving something that Awakening introduced isn't praise-worthy it's expected.

Fates is not nearly as interesting from an army building perspective. It's casualized to the point of irrelevance. The evidence is all over, look at the Awakening pairing thread vs the one here.

I think Fates should have focused on a 11/10 amazing experience instead of making three 6s.

Personally Fates has turned this into a wait-and-see series instead of a preorder series for me.

I would actually totally disagree on the army building comment. The new reclassing system actually makes it possible to do some cool Skill builds without having to grind and make the game's difficulty irrelevant. Granted, I do feel that the Optimization aspect of the kids is pretty irrelevant now. However, if that's the only real trade off for better Maps, The Stances, better reclassing and neat new classes, I'm pretty okay with it. Not to say that Unit Optimization isn't it's own brand of enjoyable (and Awakening did have DLC to let you take advantage of the planning), but as a core Fire Emblem experience that I want to replay, I'd take Fates any day. That's just my opinion though.

[Ebony]

Fates is not nearly as interesting from an army building perspective. It's casualized to the point of irrelevance. The evidence is all over, look at the Awakening pairing thread vs the one here.

...?

Because any option is viable so you don't have to constantly have a massive thread that's "how do I beat Apotheosis with the best pairing?"

That's basically all that thread is. It boils down to a few "optimized" pairings anyway. As opposed to getting Galeforce on anyone.

But I remember you having this argument with others before so I'm not going to get into it further.

[ckc22]

I would actually totally disagree on the army building comment. The new reclassing system actually makes it possible to do some cool Skill builds without having to grind and make the game's difficulty irrelevant. Granted, I do feel that the Optimization aspect of the kids is pretty irrelevant now. However, if that's the only real trade off for better Maps, The Stances, better reclassing and neat new classes, I'm pretty okay with it. Not to say that Unit Optimization isn't it's own brand of enjoyable (and Awakening did have DLC to let you take advantage of the planning), but as a core Fire Emblem experience that I want to replay, I'd take Fates any day. That's just my opinion though.

You can disagree all you want. That's not going to change the fact that the Awakening thread has 7500 posts of crafting/discussion and the Fates thread has like 100 posts.

Replaying Fates is boring.... what's the point? The characters and story are awful/boring. Sure the improvements are great for the first time through, but they botched the thing that added hundreds of hours of life to Awakening.

[ckc22]

...?

Because any option is viable so you don't have to constantly have a massive thread that's "how do I beat Apotheosis with the best pairing?"

That's basically all that thread is. It boils down to a few "optimized" pairings anyway. As opposed to getting Galeforce on anyone.

But I remember you having this argument with others before so I'm not going to get into it further.

Except there are tons of options with how to beat apotheosis. There is no "one team" in awakening... but I'm sure people will lie and mislead around here to trash awakening as per usual.

I'm not exactly the only one who thinks it - half of the huge names that helped craft the Awakening metagame think that Fates is a boring mess with regards to army building. Airship_Canon, Astrophys, etc.

[NekoKnight]

Awakening seems like a prototype for Fates for most gameplay mechanics. It's extremely entitled to dismiss Fates' improvements on the game by saying "Yeah, well, I EXPECT them to improve the gameplay so that doesn't count."

[Slyfox]

I think Fates improved almost all the gameplay from Awakening. The major exception for me being forging.

Also, this may not be as popular, but I wish we had a hybrid pair up system between Awakening and Fates. Keep the random percentages from Awakening, so we don't rely on pair up as a crutch, but also keep the pair up/side by side differences Fates introduced. If this ruins strategy too much, then keep the guaranteed defend after several hits for the pair up, and add one guaranteed attack after, say, three battles for the side by side. But overall, I like the percentage system because it feels like Fire Emblem to me.

[Sunwoo]

I would've liked an option to turn pair-up off, for both player units and enemy units. Even if Conquest was aimed at veteran players, the mechanics still felt very Awakening-esque to me (pair-up, supports). And instead of making Birthright "the path that's pretty much Awakening" and Conquest "the path that tries to be older FE", it'd have been nice if both Birthright and Conquest had a pair-up and non-pairup option. Of course, I have no idea how much of a headache that would be to implement ...

[Time the Crestfallen]

I think Fates improved almost all the gameplay from Awakening. The major exception for me being forging.

I dunno. The forging system in Fates is crap, but using the same forging system from Awakening would be pretty broken because of the unbreakable weapons.

[ckc22]

Awakening seems like a prototype for Fates for most gameplay mechanics. It's extremely entitled to dismiss Fates' improvements on the game by saying "Yeah, well, I EXPECT them to improve the gameplay so that doesn't count."

It's extremely entitled to give Awakening no credit for originating most of what Fates improves.

[Time the Crestfallen]

It's extremely entitled to give Awakening no credit for originating most of what Fates improves.

I don't think that's what he's saying. Sure, Awakening is great and all, but it's commonly agreed upon that Fates improves upon the gameplay pretty well and dismissing that because Awakening did it first isn't being fair.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Phillius

[NekoKnight]

It's extremely entitled to give Awakening no credit for originating most of what Fates improves.

I don't think that's what he's saying. Sure, Awakening is great and all, but it's commonly agreed upon that Fates improves upon the gameplay pretty well and that dismissing that because Awakening did it first isn't being fair.

Pretty much what Phillius said. Awakening gave us the foundation for some positive game mechanics but they were unrefined. I don't see how people can argue that Awakening is a better game when most of its mechanics are done better in Fates. Better reclassing, better skills, better pair up, better map design (mostly Conquest), and then there is all the new things they added like personal skills and new classes.

[Alastor15243]

You can disagree all you want. That's not going to change the fact that the Awakening thread has 7500 posts of crafting/discussion and the Fates thread has like 100 posts.

Replaying Fates is boring.... what's the point? The characters and story are awful/boring. Sure the improvements are great for the first time through, but they botched the thing that added hundreds of hours of life to Awakening.

I used to agree with you that Awakening's team building and optimization was fun, I used to heavily participate in the Awakening pairing thread. But by the third time building a team for apotheosis I finally realized how much of that was an unbelievably sloggy grind, and I vowed never to grind in a fire emblem game again (except now I'm forced to for this little project I can't explain right now. Fun.) It takes hours upon hours to properly assemble a team for Apotheosis, and the payoff is really only fun once per team. And that's to say nothing of the number of ways in which apotheosis is trivialized and reduced to the point where the enemies basically never get a chance to do anything interesting. Nothing in apotheosis, nothing, was more interesting than 90% of the maps in conquest. I had more fun with nearly all of them, and it didn't demand a single minute of pointless grinding of me. It was extremely reasonable and efficient with my time.

[ckc22]

I used to agree with you that Awakening's team building and optimization was fun, I used to heavily participate in the Awakening pairing thread. But by the third time building a team for apotheosis I finally realized how much of that was an unbelievably sloggy grind, and I vowed never to grind in a fire emblem game again (except now I'm forced to for this little project I can't explain right now. Fun.) It takes hours upon hours to properly assemble a team for Apotheosis, and the payoff is really only fun once per team. And that's to say nothing of the number of ways in which apotheosis is trivialized and reduced to the point where the enemies basically never get a chance to do anything interesting. Nothing in apotheosis, nothing, was more interesting than 90% of the maps in conquest. I had more fun with nearly all of them, and it didn't demand a single minute of pointless grinding of me. It was extremely reasonable and efficient with my time.

Grinding =/= inheritance mechanics.

I don't think that's what he's saying. Sure, Awakening is great and all, but it's commonly agreed upon that Fates improves upon the gameplay pretty well and dismissing that because Awakening did it first isn't being fair.

If you write a draft of something, get it edited, and then ignore those comments and edits you're an idiot. Fates gets WAY too much credit for doing obvious things. Longtime fans just like to create some delusion in their heads that Conquest was IS's little love letter to themselves and it leads them to unreasonable discussions.

Pretty much what Phillius said. Awakening gave us the foundation for some positive game mechanics but they were unrefined. I don't see how people can argue that Awakening is a better game when most of its mechanics are done better in Fates. Better reclassing, better skills, better pair up, better map design (mostly Conquest), and then there is all the new things they added like personal skills and new classes.

Again. Introducing unrefined mechanics is pretty much how video games work, sequels then improve and modify those things to make them better while making some additions/subtractions for things that seem cool/things that didn't work.

And yet it's hollow. I'm sure theories abound as to why, but mine is that their eyes were basically cartoon dollar signs

[Alastor15243]

Grinding =/= inheritance mechanics.

What does that even mean? The inheritance mechanics are identical except for growth rates which work slightly different, and the fact that there are different skills to inherit. What's so interesting about Awakening's inheritance system that you can't do in Fates besides optimizing for Apotheosis?

[ckc22]

What does that even mean? The inheritance mechanics are identical except for growth rates which work slightly different, and the fact that there are different skills to inherit. What's so interesting about Awakening's inheritance system that you can't do in Fates besides optimizing for Apotheosis?

It means that the part that you like is the fact that skill learning is improved.

However skill buying ruins any of that because it means the only thing that matters are final class access + mods.

[Alastor15243]

It means that the part that you like is the fact that skill learning is improved.

However skill buying ruins any of that because it means the only thing that matters are final class access + mods.

Except there's no need to ever do that. If you think it ruins the game, don't do it. I didn't.

[Time the Crestfallen]

If you write a draft of something, get it edited, and then ignore those comments and edits you're an idiot. Fates gets WAY too much credit for doing obvious things. Longtime fans just like to create some delusion in their heads that Conquest was IS's little love letter to themselves and it leads them to unreasonable discussions.

Obvious things such as...? I'm not even touching that second part by the way. It's possible to disagree with someone without being rude.

And yet it's hollow. I'm sure theories abound as to why, but mine is that their eyes were basically cartoon dollar signs

Are we supposed to be shocked/offended that a company wants to make money off of something they produced? Besides, it's not like they've massively overcharged on anything. It's $80-ish for 72~ chapters worth of story content + everything else, and it's not like Awakening was any better in regards to DLC.

[NekoKnight]

If you write a draft of something, get it edited, and then ignore those comments and edits you're an idiot. Fates gets WAY too much credit for doing obvious things. Longtime fans just like to create some delusion in their heads that Conquest was IS's little love letter to themselves and it leads them to unreasonable discussions.

Again. Introducing unrefined mechanics is pretty much how video games work, sequels then improve and modify those things to make them better while making some additions/subtractions for things that seem cool/things that didn't work.

Tell me all about those radical improvements between Sealed Sword, Blazing Sword and Sacred Stones. Oh wait, the latter two titles only made minor tweaks to the gameplay. It's not guaranteed that a game will evolve it's gameplay in each sequel, so you do IS a disservice by calling their improvements "obvious". The only delusion here is the belief that only the first game to attempt a game mechanic deserves credit. Your bias towards Awakening is reaching Sacred Cow levels.

[LuxSpes]

It's extremely entitled to give Awakening no credit for originating most of what Fates improves.

If you write a draft of something, get it edited, and then ignore those comments and edits you're an idiot. Fates gets WAY too much credit for doing obvious things. Longtime fans just like to create some delusion in their heads that Conquest was IS's little love letter to themselves and it leads them to unreasonable discussions.

Again. Introducing unrefined mechanics is pretty much how video games work, sequels then improve and modify those things to make them better while making some additions/subtractions for things that seem cool/things that didn't work.

That logic is incredibly flawed. By using it, one could say Awakening deserves no credit for having a world map since FE2 first had one. That it doesn't deserve credit for marriage, inheritance and skills because FE4 introduced them first, that it doesn't deserve credit for reclassing since FE11 did it first or that it doesn't deserve credits for avatar character and casual mode since they first appeared in FE12. Heck, you could that logic to claim that FE1 is the only FE game deserving of praise since it's the one that created the foundation of the series.

Like others said, it's not because a game introduce a feature that it will necessarily be better in the sequel. Some games either scrap, neglect to change or even make worse some game mechanics in sequels. When Fates was developed, IS could have said ''Reclassing and pair-ups are unbalanced, so we'll just scrap them from Fates'' or ''We want to focus on other gameplay features, so we'll leave them as i they were in Awakening''. Instead, they actually improved those 2 features in ways that most of the playerbase seems to find more enjoyable. So saying Fates doesn't deserve credit for Attack Stance/Guard Stance and Heart, Buddy and Partner Seals is wrong.

[shadowofchaos]

Except there's no need to ever do that. If you think it ruins the game, don't do it. I didn't.

This person will argue again that minmaxing requires the use of all resources of the game, including the casualized my castle skill buying.

The theorycrafting is still there but he says there's no point.

I say, the point is doing it for the fun of it instead of "this is fun because I trigger discussion depending on how I can do something better with this inheritance mechanic" the Awakening "metagame" has.

It's pretty much the "grinding trivializes Awakening" that led some people to demand that grinding be removed from FE again.

God forbid discussion of game mechanics without the hardcoded limitation in the game.

Oh no, it's easier to get the same setups.

If anything, it filtered out those who only wanted the creativity to have the "best setup" instead of being creative with setups for inheritance for the fun of it.

"Brought life back to Awakening" with hundreds of hours of extra gameplay?

You mean, "extra hours of grinding", don't you?

Good riddance, I say.

When theorycrafting inheritance designed to maximize stats and skills, what is the main goal, considering Awakening gets trivialized by those super units?

Apotheosis?

Is autopiloting grinding for skills "bringing life back" to the game for replay value?

I'm not exactly the only one who thinks it - half of the huge names that helped craft the Awakening metagame think that Fates is a boring mess with regards to army building. Airship_Canon, Astrophys, etc.

And one of them in particular is known in the FE and Tales Fandom as one of the most toxic, literal manifestations of "entitled, elitist gamers" that society brands us with because they are prone to mocking any interaction with a human being with an opinion different from his.

I'd reconsider attempting to put a "big name" on a pedestal, someone that attacked a child on Miiverse for daring to draw a picture of their NOTP because of his Lucina insecurities.

Imagine them talking to Kaga or recent FE devs about gameplay mechanics.

Edited September 7, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[GrySun]

Compared to awakening, fates is better, both conquest and birthright. Comparing it to any older games is tricky, since snes fe games can't really be compared to the gba fe games for example.

Personally the gameplay was never as great as with fates. There's still things to improve on, but not too much. Soundtrack is awesome as in all fe games. Characters are decent and largely likeable. Story has it's ups and downs, yet fire emblem games never have that good a story to begin with so it's not too important for the fans nor the developers. Overall a very good fire emblem game worthy of being the 14th game of the series. Along with fe6 and fe8 my top 3.

[ckc22]

Except there's no need to ever do that. If you think it ruins the game, don't do it. I didn't.

Then you aren't optimizing...

Obvious things such as...? I'm not even touching that second part by the way. It's possible to disagree with someone without being rude.

Are we supposed to be shocked/offended that a company wants to make money off of something they produced? Besides, it's not like they've massively overcharged on anything. It's $80-ish for 72~ chapters worth of story content + everything else, and it's not like Awakening was any better in regards to DLC.

The difference being that Fates feels unfocused and overextended.

Tell me all about those radical improvements between Sealed Sword, Blazing Sword and Sacred Stones. Oh wait, the latter two titles only made minor tweaks to the gameplay. It's not guaranteed that a game will evolve it's gameplay in each sequel, so you do IS a disservice by calling their improvements "obvious". The only delusion here is the belief that only the first game to attempt a game mechanic deserves credit. Your bias towards Awakening is reaching Sacred Cow levels.

I'm not saying give Fates no credit. I'm saying people on these forums tend to shit on awakening all day long and act like Fates is the second coming.

This person will argue again that minmaxing requires the use of all resources of the game, including the casualized my castle skill buying.

The theorycrafting is still there but he says there's no point.

I say, the point is doing it for the fun of it instead of "this is fun because I trigger discussion depending on how I can do something better with this inheritance mechanic" the Awakening "metagame" has.

It's pretty much the "grinding trivializes Awakening" that led some people to demand that grinding be removed from FE again.

God forbid discussion of game mechanics without the hardcoded limitation in the game.

Oh no, it's easier to get the same setups.

If anything, it filtered out those who only wanted the creativity to have the "best setup" instead of being creative with setups for inheritance for the fun of it.

"Brought life back to Awakening" with hundreds of hours of extra gameplay?

You mean, "extra hours of grinding", don't you?

Good riddance, I say.

When theorycrafting inheritance designed to maximize stats and skills, what is the main goal, considering Awakening gets trivialized by those super units?

Apotheosis?

Is autopiloting grinding for skills "bringing life back" to the game for replay value?

And one of them in particular is known in the FE and Tales Fandom as one of the most toxic, literal manifestations of "entitled, elitist gamers" that society brands us with because they are prone to mocking any interaction with a human being with an opinion different from his.

I'd reconsider attempting to put a "big name" on a pedestal, someone that attacked a child on Miiverse for daring to draw a picture of their NOTP because of his Lucina insecurities.

Imagine them talking to Kaga or recent FE devs about gameplay mechanics.

Min/maxing does require using all resources.

The theory crafting isn't there - its obvious. Look at the awakening thread vs the fates thread.

Once again grinding =/= inheritance or skill mechanics. This is apparently difficult for you guys to figure out.

The lack of any 5 or max * maps is yet another flaw of Fates.

[Alastor15243]

Then you aren't optimizing.

So? What's the point of optimizing if it isn't fun? What's the inherent value in optimizing? I agree that the online system is all kinds of broken, but you can pick and choose what parts of it you want to use. The only place the skill buying system is forced on you is in PVP, which Awakening didn't even have to any degree of substance.