"Nice guys"

[Rapier]

The problem with "human" is that it's a very broad spectrum. Once upon a time, women were viewed as property in the eyes of the law. Today, women are viewed as people. Times and social rules will change, hopefully for the better. I really would like it if gratitude was the de facto response after an altruistic act. Realistically, that's not going to happen. So, you can either expect the best out of people, or the worst. The difference is that you're a lot less likely to be disappointed if you receive something good when you don't expect it, versus expecting something good and not receiving it. Think of it as "hope for the best but prepare for the worst". Part of the "nice guy" disappointment is expecting something good (the girl's approval) and not getting it.

Cerebus cleared up his point nicely.

I'm already lost here. Do you still think I mean it's ok to demand rewards for doing nice things or that I think people should expect rewards? Because that's very far from what I said.

I just said 1) we shouldn't just focus on "nice guys" but on entitled people in general (so, let's talk about women too instead of pretending this is a male only thing); 2) this is a bigger issue than being a "nice" guy just to demand a reward later; 3) addressing egocentrism and entitlement would be more productive because merely addressing the "nice guys" issue is touching the tip of the iceberg, it will solve a problem but leave others alone.

I guess it's better to reiterate:

I think it is bad to demand rewards (including gratitude) for doing nice things because that kind of thing is relatable to a contract that you haven't signed being forced onto you. It is not because person X did something nice that person Y is obliged to retribute (but I don't deny that it'd be very nice), favors aren't loans and using them to bind people into an unconsented social obligation seems immoral/troll logic. Using us as an example, gifting me Trails in the Sky FC (I swear I'm going to finish it when I'm not so busy) doesn't mean I am obliged to reward you in any way (not that I wouldn't thank you), as I had no say in your choice and never did I consent on retributing the favor in any way. It's pretty much an unilateral, binding contract, despite being unsigned by the receiving party, so in lieu of the lack of consent it shouldn't be valid.

As for expecting rewards, it depends. If I do something nice solely because I want a reward, then I think it is... questionable, at best, but I can't draw the line on which cases are acceptable or not. If I am giving someone a glass of water just because I want them to express gratitude (manipulation), I'm not being nice at all because my intent is tainted. If I am giving them a glass of water because they asked and I want to help, but I also want my action to be recognized, I am not manipulating people (the intent behind the action is good) and thus I guess it should be acceptable, as I lack an infinite supply of time, patience and resources and the other person can also be accused of making use of me if they keep doing this liberally.

Your position is nice in theory, but selflessness is an impossible goal. No one acts without interest/accomplishment in mind (yeah this is a bold, generalizating claim but I think I can stand by it).

Edited October 6, 2016 by Rapier

[Phoenix Wright]

i think it was dawkins that helped show (true) altruism does not exist in nature. though admittedly, he did say something is weird about humans. whatever the case, rapier, i agree that "selflessness" is impossible to achieve.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Thor Odinson]

I think that if you voluntarily do something for someone else, when they didn't even ask for it, you should not expect gratitude. Even if you thought it was a nice thing, it might not be to them. They may not want you doing the thing for them and you could be a nuisance.

If someone asks you to do something, I think in that case it's not unreasonable to expect a bit of gratitude since they asked for it. Any compensation, however, should be mutually agreed upon.

[thepeaguy]

If you have to be nasty to attract some girls, you're weak. You're denying who you are.

But then, people lie. So...