Abortion: What's your stance on it and why?

[Time the Crestfallen]

Nothing against them personally, but not something I'd want myself. I don't even like wearing contacts.

Why do you ask?

I dunno. I like hearing other peoples thoughts and it seemed relevant to the discussion, considering that they're probably the most effective form of birth control outside of vasectomy or tubal ligation.

[Lord Raven]

Sex is socially irresponsible when it is done to feel pleasure and not for procreation as it is designed for biologically. Any aversion of the biological function is socially irresponsible since there is always a chance for procreation. Your turn.

Sex is not socially irresponsible when it is done to feel pleasure and not procreation despite it being designed for procreation. Any aversion from this biological function has little to do with social irresponsibility, because why not have sex.

The social irresponsibility of sex is irrelevant anyway.

As for why I don't believe that it should be publicly funded, it goes like this.

If I have no right to comment on an abortion (because only the women gets to make the decision), I don't believe I should pay for it.

That is avoiding the point.

You said it should be given free or be publicly funded (we're splitting hairs as to what people care about here, to be honest, so we'll just say free) in the case of rape or health issues in general. I am saying that, because rape is so hard to prove and will likely result in tons of bureaucracy to not only prove, verify, and even then it's not even necessarily right, you will very rarely have cases where rape will result in an abortion.

Now, because of that, you are letting a lot of women down, especially those who got raped and need to get an abortion while keeping their privacy or even weren't able to win the court case or may have to jump through a shitload of hoops to get the abortion. Maybe a woman will lie about it just to get the abortion. Where do you draw the line then? If getting an abortion for being raped is something that is tolerated, yet is extremely extremely difficult to prove, then wouldn't it make sense to allow everyone to get an abortion "no questions asked" for free? The justice system has been really shit with dealing with rape in general, so saying "rape victims should be allowed to get an abortion" also means said woman has the burden of proof on them completely which is far from beneficial.

So having that all said - many many rape victims will not get their abortions if you only allow "free" or publicly funded abortions for rape victims. Meaning any standard you apply to rape victims has to be applied to everyone or else it won't end up actually applying to the demographic you want it to apply to.

This is my point. You're avoiding it and not reading it for some reason.

That argument, among with the "they're going to live with a disability that will cause pain/will live poor/will face hardships in life", have made me thinking if it applies or not.

I can understand for disabilities like being locked in a vegetative state forever or anything as nasty as that, but for cases such as autism, Down Syndrome, slight mental retardation or average normal retardation, being born without a certain limb or limbs, among other types that don't come to mind right now, I start to wonder where this argument should draw a line.

I think many people prefer to keep living in spite of their suffering, and they find a meaning in life despite their hardships. Taking another life just because they'll face hardships (that they might prefer facing instead of never existing at all) simply doesn't seem that appealing anymore. There are poor people who, despite their hardships, are pretty much glad they're alive, and wouldn't prefer not having been born at all.

Ultimately, it's not an argument I care for since I'm pro-choice all the way, but I'm saying context is important. I don't think people who get their abortions will generally gleefully say "oh I can't afford a baby in my life now, I'll wait until later :D" when they get their abortion. Otherwise, I see what point you're making.

[Rezzy]

I dunno. I like hearing other peoples thoughts and it seemed relevant to the discussion, considering that they're probably the most effective form of birth control outside of vasectomy or tubal ligation.

True, there's also implants like Implanon, but they also have their own side-effects.

I know I'm neurotic, I just don't like the idea of a spiky foreign object lodged inside me.

[Time the Crestfallen]

True, there's also implants like Implanon, but they also have their own side-effects.

I know I'm neurotic, I just don't like the idea of a spiky foreign object lodged inside me.

Ah yes, I believe they refer to that as common sense. XD

I don't blame you though, considering that uterine perforation is listed as one of the risks.

[Res]

I know statistically they're safe, but anecdotally roughly 90% of the moms in my birth month group with IUDs ended up having major issues with them. Enough horror stories to put me off for life!

[Time the Crestfallen]

I know statistically they're safe, but anecdotally roughly 90% of the moms in my birth month group with IUDs ended up having major issues with them. Enough horror stories to put me off for life!

Really? Do you mind if I ask what those issues were? Because I was under the impression that they were pretty good in terms of ease of use.

[Rezzy]

I know statistically they're safe, but anecdotally roughly 90% of the moms in my birth month group with IUDs ended up having major issues with them. Enough horror stories to put me off for life!

Well, at least I don't have to worry about birth control anymore.

I don't think I've known anyone who used an IUD, at least that I'm aware of. I've seen plenty of Implanon, with varying degrees of tolerance, along with those on the pill, patch, straight condoms, or even rhythm method.

[Res]

Most had heavy bleeding/bleeding for 2-4 months at a time. The second most common complaint was having the IUD shift - not out of the uterus, but enough that it was uncomfortable/couldn't feel strings any longer. One woman did lose it completely, though - as in it not only perforated her uterus, but traveled far enough that an initial ultrasound didn't pick it up!

[Time the Crestfallen]

Most had heavy bleeding/bleeding for 2-4 months at a time. The second most common complaint was having the IUD shift - not out of the uterus, but enough that it was uncomfortable/couldn't feel strings any longer. One woman did lose it completely, though - as in it not only perforated her uterus, but traveled far enough that an initial ultrasound didn't pick it up!

Yeesh, that's pretty bad innit?

[Irysa]

I used to be resoundingly pro choice till I found out that the first thing my sister was told by an NHS consultant after she got her pregnancy test results back was "We assume you want an abortion". That geninuely horrified me.

I wouldn't say I'm pro-life but I'm not personally comfortable with normalising abortion either. It's a complex issue that has some similarities to my position on various drugs, in that what I think would be ideal is that it be legal and not muddled in a quagmire of requirements to qualify, but that it should carry a strong negative stigma from society. Abortions are unpleasant things (putting it mildly) and we shouldn't forget that.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Irysa

[Magical CC]

This is a bit of a controversial topic but what do you guys think about abortion?

Only in rich countries which low birthrate, this is a controversial topic. In countries similar to mine where overpopulation is a huge problem, it's not. I myself see no reason to ban abortion especially when the welfare is struggling with families who bred dozen of babies in less than 10 years.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Magical CC

[PersonWithTime]

I used to be resoundingly pro choice till I found out that the first thing my sister was told by an NHS consultant after she got her pregnancy test results back was "We assume you want an abortion". That geninuely horrified me.

I wouldn't say I'm pro-life but I'm not personally comfortable with normalising abortion either. It's a complex issue that has some similarities to my position on various drugs, in that what I think would be ideal is that it be legal and not muddled in a quagmire of requirements to qualify, but that it should carry a strong negative stigma from society. Abortions are unpleasant things (putting it mildly) and we shouldn't forget that.

Yeah, that's sort of what I meant when I said that there's a part of the "pro-choice" circle that are actually "pro-abortion"

I don't think it should be something that happens extremely casually, it should be a very thought out decision.

[UNLEASH IT]

Yeah, that's sort of what I meant when I said that there's a part of the "pro-choice" circle that are actually "pro-abortion"

I don't think it should be something that happens extremely casually, it should be a very thought out decision.

Personally, I would call myself pro-abortion rather than pro-choice (as I said earlier). Yes I believe it's something that you should think about, but I also believe that if a woman/parents are unable to financially support the child and can't find foster parents who are able to do so, they should consider having an abortion.

Edited September 14, 2016 by UNLEASH IT

[Nobody]

Only in rich countries which low birthrate, this is a controversial topic. In countries similar to mine where overpopulation is a huge problem, it's not. I myself see no reason to ban abortion especially when the welfare is struggling with families who bred dozen of babies in less than 10 years.

This is factually wrong. Like, so much wrong it's funny how wrong it is

Blue is fully allowed. Orange is forbidden except for death risk.

Between the countries where abortion is fully legal (blue) or almost fully legal (green), the only ones with above replacement fertility rates are south africa, zambia, india, bangladesh, turkey, mongolia, cambodia and the ones in central asia, while basically all the countries with fertility rate above 3 have very restrict abortion laws

Edited September 14, 2016 by Nooooooooooooooooooooobody

[Magical CC]

This is factually wrong. Like, so much wrong it's funny how wrong it is

Blue is fully allowed. Orange is forbidden except for death risk.

Between the countries where abortion is fully legal (blue) or almost fully legal (green), the only ones with above replacement fertility rates are south africa, zambia, india, bangladesh, turkey, mongolia, cambodia and the ones in central asia, while basically all the countries with fertility rate above 3 have very restrict abortion laws

Overpopulation is the key word.

[UNLEASH IT]

This is factually wrong. Like, so much wrong it's funny how wrong it is

Blue is fully allowed. Orange is forbidden except for death risk.

Between the countries where abortion is fully legal (blue) or almost fully legal (green), the only ones with above replacement fertility rates are south africa, zambia, india, bangladesh, turkey, mongolia, cambodia and the ones in central asia, while basically all the countries with fertility rate above 3 have very restrict abortion laws

I was just about to ask something like this. I know that in many undeveloped, overpopulated countries abortion is unavailable to the public, either due to a lack of medical labour or due to them having very conservative beliefs (which is very unfortunate for them because they would benefit a lot from being able to have abortions)

Edited September 14, 2016 by UNLEASH IT

[Phoenix Wright]

pro choice

[NekoKnight]

I'm solidly pro-choice. Women are not human incubators and parenthood shouldn't be a punishment for 'social irresponsibility'. The kinder thing to do is to prevent a life before it starts, rather than raising a child you can't realistically provide for. A lot of people are pro-life but actively scorn those on wellfare. Huh, unwanted pregnancies and wellfare...I wonder if there is a connection.

[Niqo]

I'm not necessarily pro-choice or pro-life, because they're both a bit eh. I do believe that a woman should have the choice to keep or abort a baby. However, I do not think abort should be possible after a 3-month or so period, when the baby has really started develop and is actually living. And by the 3-month period, you will have noticed that you are pregnant (because some people argue that you won't, for whatever dumb reason.)

However, I also do not think a woman should go around constantly getting abortions because of their incapability to use protection (and by that, I do not mean a one-time mistake or so, I mean multiple times over). Though I do suppose that in some countries, this would not happen, because abortions are sometimes pricey (though in other places, like Canada, they are free.) I think abortions should mainly be for teens and people that were subjected to unconsenual sex. Again, this is a grey area, if you aren't ready and you know it, then I think you should be able to abort the baby, for both the baby's sake and yours, but as I stated, there are black areas to this.

In conclusion, it's really a grey area. I would say I'm mostly pro-choice though.

[Res]

You don't believe that someone wouldn't know they were pregnant past the 12th week of pregnancy?

Most people barely start showing until they're almost halfway through their pregnancy (I've even seen full-term bumps that were barely there). Likewise, most people don't start to feel real movement until the 19th/20th week. And many people continue to have periods, or period-like bleeding, throughout pregnancy. It's not happened to me, because I'm always sick as a dog by the 6th week, but I can see how if you didn't have symptoms, you might not know. My first indication both times was the sickness, and not a missed period (my hypothyroidism means I sometimes go up to six months without a period).

Also, no one gets abortions for funsies. Even if you abort early on - even if you take Plan B - it's an uncomfortable and painful experience. Also, more than 40% of women seeking an abortion already have at least one child.

[NekoKnight]

Also, no one gets abortions for funsies. Even if you abort early on - even if you take Plan B - it's an uncomfortable and painful experience.

This is an important counterpoint. There is this narrative that people get abortions on the fly because they can't be bothered to use birth control. Even for people who are pro-choice, aborting a pregnancy is a difficult decision to make. It has health risks and can be very emotionally draining, even if it's ultimately the responsible choice. No one WANTS an abortion, they never wanted to get pregnant in the first place.

[Life]

This is an important counterpoint. There is this narrative that people get abortions on the fly because they can't be bothered to use birth control. Even for people who are pro-choice, aborting a pregnancy is a difficult decision to make. It has health risks and can be very emotionally draining, even if it's ultimately the responsible choice. No one WANTS an abortion, they never wanted to get pregnant in the first place.

I'm going to counter this by mentioning the Shout Your Abortion movement. There was also some study that a friend linked me to that claimed that abortion was actually healthy for the woman. Since I'm not a scientist, I can't say that it is false.

Your move.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Deplorable Pepe

[ping]

How about sharing that link?

Also, "mentioning the Shout Your Abortion movement" is basically attacking a stance NekoKnight didn't take. If you have a problem with SYA (which I can understand), complain to them.

You countered literally nothing of NekoKnights post.

[NekoKnight]

How about sharing that link?

Also, "mentioning the Shout Your Abortion movement" is basically attacking a stance NekoKnight didn't take. If you have a problem with SYA (which I can understand), complain to them.

You countered literally nothing of NekoKnights post.

Thanks.

I checked the SYA movement website (never heard of them before, is it a small group?) and it sounds like they are just trying to remove the shame of getting an abortion, not advocate for casual abortions. That's really no different than gay pride promotions.

[Life]

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE80M2BS20120123

That's the link that claims that abortions are safer than giving birth.