Feminism discussion

[Thor Odinson]

But I am a woman

In more seriousness

I don't want to derail and I don't like arguing much so I won't get into the details of this

But as a comic Thor fan I would really like people who aren't well-versed in Thor's comic history to stop using the femThor thing in their arguments, for or against any other cause

[tuvarkz]

snowy's posts here are the kind of thing that make me apprehensive about ranting against feminism too much tbh, it kinda reminds me more of how I used to be and how a label is meaningless past the intention (I don't care what someone calls themselves if they believe in true equality). you just seem like you have an axe to grind.

I've pointed out every problem with Anita Sarkeesian (or others) has with her arguments - she honestly sucks hard at being a feminist, but I'm not going to invoke the True Scotsman fallacy and say she isn't one.

With a group that could be likened to the amorphousness of say, a religious grouping of people, it's not really surprising that you have fundamental self-proclaimed 'radfems' being outright detrimental to the cause. Picking out the most egregious of these and generalising is not an effective strategy, because I could just as easily do that for MRAs, Christians, Atheists, or anyone else, and then proceed to act indignant about their existence.

The issue is that these kind of feminists are going mainstream. Sarkeesian and Quinn got invited to speak at the UN, Obama has brought up the 'wage gap' and the '1 in 4' (He called it as twenty percent but the issue remains the same), the 'guilty unless proven otherwise' in multiple college rape investigations. The issue is not that they are being the most vocal, but that they are actually being listened to by people with influence.

[Rezzy]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet, but I guess could be called a feminist issue is prostitution. I think it should be legal, and don't really why it's still illegal at this point. It diverts countless hours from law enforcement that could be spent tracking real criminals. It also makes sex-workers go underground, so they are at the mercy of johns, leaving them open to getting beaten or killed, without any resources to protect themselves. The stigma from such a profession should be removed. If I'm struggling to make money, renting out my body should be a viable alternative, considering there's always demand, and it's hurting nobody. Legalization would make it better for both parties. It would be safer and cleaner, and big government types could even squeeze some more tax dollars out of it

But I am a woman

In more seriousness

I don't want to derail and I don't like arguing much so I won't get into the details of this

But as a comic Thor fan I would really like people who aren't well-versed in Thor's comic history to stop using the femThor thing in their arguments, for or against any other cause

I'm a comic fan, or at least was in the 90s, when I could keep up with everything. Maybe I'm a fake-geek girl at this point. I hope there isn't a quiz.

I don't like FemThor because of the way it was done. I don't mind a woman wielding Mjolnir and gaining the powers of Thor, but I don't like that Thor basically had his identity stolen and was told that he wasn't worthy. He didn't do something that we got to see. I think it was sloppy story-telling. I also hate Captain America being a Nazi for the same reason. These are our main characters that we've come to love. If they did something horrible, we should have already seen it in the years of backstory we've seen. These sorts of revelations are more suited to side-characters that we don't have point-of-view from, so to speak.

[Thor Odinson]

I'm a comic fan, or at least was in the 90s, when I could keep up with everything. Maybe I'm a fake-geek girl at this point. I hope there isn't a quiz.

I don't like FemThor because of the way it was done. I don't mind a woman wielding Mjolnir and gaining the powers of Thor, but I don't like that Thor basically had his identity stolen and was told that he wasn't worthy. He didn't do something that we got to see. I think it was sloppy story-telling. I also hate Captain America being a Nazi for the same reason. These are our main characters that we've come to love. If they did something horrible, we should have already seen it in the years of backstory we've seen. These sorts of revelations are more suited to side-characters that we don't have point-of-view from, so to speak.

Fake geek girl is a myth anyway.

My issue isn't so much people who don't know enough about Thor so much as people keep on using the femThor thing for their agendas. I personally have mixed feelings about it because the angle that Jason Aaron was coming from isn't exactly invalid--Thor traditionally had a history, that he may or may not lose his powers for some reason, whether it's a loss of worthiness (or just being out-worthy'd, in beta-ray-bill's case) or some kind of asgard-law-banishment type thing where someone has to take up his mantle (Eric Masterson) in his absence. It's a part of Thor's history Aaron's angle of wanting to tackle a Thor-loses-hammer-someone-else-takes-it and that person happens to be a woman is not exactly farfetched. I have a problem with people who are mad at the femThor thing simply because femThor, given Thor's history.

That being said, there are reasons to not like the run, because of the execution of it. I absolutely do agree with the bit about sloppy story-telling, which I'm actually very disappointed with because Jason Aaron's God of Thunder (issues 1-11) was, for lack of a better word here, fucking epic. It was metal as fuck and had a very saga-type feel to the story telling of a really good Thor story, and it was clear he can do a fucking great job with Thor, unlike a lot of Thor writers in the past who don't quite know how to approach him. However, I'm disappointed in the treatment of Thor's character, and I feel like he didn't really take the opportunity to really develop him here and explore what it means to be unworthy (I don't think we know what Nick Fury even told him right now, which is dragging on for too long). I respect Jason Aaron's choice in premise, but I don't really think he pulled it off.

Still, it's quite aggravating to see people who have nothing to do with the Thor fanbase keep on pulling this out to further their agenda and don't really treat it with nuance.

Having read the first volume of femThor anyway, I also want to say that despite it not living up to my expectations regarding the characters involved, nevertheless it did have some very entertaining moments and I still do hold Aaron in high regards as a writer overall. Which just makes it more disappointing, alas.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[UNLEASH IT]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet, but I guess could be called a feminist issue is prostitution. I think it should be legal, and don't really why it's still illegal at this point. It diverts countless hours from law enforcement that could be spent tracking real criminals. It also makes sex-workers go underground, so they are at the mercy of johns, leaving them open to getting beaten or killed, without any resources to protect themselves. The stigma from such a profession should be removed. If I'm struggling to make money, renting out my body should be a viable alternative, considering there's always demand, and it's hurting nobody. Legalization would make it better for both parties. It would be safer and cleaner, and big government types could even squeeze some more tax dollars out of it.

From what I've heard, feminists are pretty split on this.

[Rezzy]

From what I've heard, feminists are pretty split on this.

I don't call myself a feminist. I just think this is a bigger deal that primarily affects women than any of the other issues commonly brought up that legislation could actually do something about.

[UNLEASH IT]

I don't call myself a feminist. I just think this is a bigger deal that primarily affects women than any of the other issues commonly brought up that legislation could actually do something about.

I was never really implying that you were, but I apologize if you thought so.

[Rezzy]

I was never really implying that you were, but I apologize if you thought so.

No worries, I wasn't offended or anything, just posting for clarity. I try to take each issue individually, rather than committing to an ideology lock, stock, and barrel.

[Thor Odinson]

I can't speak for all feminists, but I agree with at least decriminalizing sex work if not legalizing it. For people who are doing it out of their own will, I mean, one night stands are legal, so why not a one night stand with some cash thrown in it? If all parties are consenting adults, who cares, really

But decriminalizing it would sure as fuck make it easier for those who are trafficked to get some help without the risk of being branded as a criminal and thrown in jail while the real criminals run free.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Fake geek girl is a myth anyway.

My issue isn't so much people who don't know enough about Thor so much as people keep on using the femThor thing for their agendas. I personally have mixed feelings about it because the angle that Jason Aaron was coming from isn't exactly invalid--Thor traditionally had a history, that he may or may not lose his powers for some reason, whether it's a loss of worthiness (or just being out-worthy'd, in beta-ray-bill's case) or some kind of asgard-law-banishment type thing where someone has to take up his mantle (Eric Masterson) in his absence. It's a part of Thor's history Aaron's angle of wanting to tackle a Thor-loses-hammer-someone-else-takes-it and that person happens to be a woman is not exactly farfetched. I have a problem with people who are mad at the femThor thing simply because femThor, given Thor's history.

<snip>

I don't suppose you could answer a question for me? From an outsiders perspective, I feel like they have this good set-up with Thor un-worthy'd and Jane taking up the hammer, but they just kinda didn't do anything with it and wound up going for a very business-as-usual route. Have they actually not really progressed much in terms of character or have I missed a big, super-important issue of the comic?

I do not hate people who genuinely desire equality between men and women. Even if some of them espouse these sorts of views they are at least honest. The problem is that the movement has been hijacked, as it were, by the third-wave feminist. If you want equality between men and women you are a feminist... oh and that also means you need to speak up in defense of women who claim to have been raped even when it gets proven no rape ever happened, support the decision to replace Thor with a woman, believe the wage gap is real, and so-forth. What's that? You don't support one of our positions? Than you're a scummy woman-hating monstrosity whom would gladly beat their wives/have been beaten into subservience by your husband and are perfectly willing to shackle women to the kitchen once again!

This is why I gave my definition earlier. The third-wave feminist is an upper-class woman whom goes to expensive colleges on her parents dime and wastes it on things like gender studies courses and likely hasn't worked a day in her life or a lower-class woman whom often practices 0 self-control and expects others to pick up her slack. Above all else, however, they're willing to shoot to an extreme and denounce any dissenting opinion, often without addressing the opinion itself, by shouting it down and terminating all discussion while setting it up so that, if you disagree with them, you are a monster. It's the same tactic pulled with Gamergate in which being neutral gets you shoved onto one side and there is no real middle ground.

Right, so you say that you're not strawmanning and that my statements are a fallacy, and yet you take the actions of these individuals and present them as the 'typical' third-wave feminist, even going so far as to stereotype their lifestyle. Not to mention that your entire first paragraph is, again, strawmanning.

I have already stated that feminism is too large an ideal to critique or defend as a singular entity, and this is no different for third-wave feminism.

Edited September 29, 2016 by The Blind Idiot God

[Rezzy]

I can keep going, but I hope you've gotten the point by now. I am not showing strawmen. I am seeing stuff like this video (WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT!

)

I pray to God this is fake, and looking at the comment section, it looks like it is, but what's the point of this video?

[Thor Odinson]

I don't suppose you could answer a question for me? From an outsiders perspective, I feel like they have this good set-up with Thor un-worthy'd and Jane taking up the hammer, but they just kinda didn't do anything with it and wound up going for a very business-as-usual route. Have they actually not really progressed much in terms of character or have I missed a big, super-important issue of the comic?

I stopped reading after the Secret Wars world reset thing partly because grad school hit me in the face really hard and partly because I am getting really fed up with world resets, so I can't say what happens in detail after the pre-Secret Wars business. However, while I get that Thor is really upset because Mjolnir meant a lot to him and is not just a hammer, he spent the entire first arc just trying to figure out who the fuck femThor is while not really much happened with him characterwise there. I did a google a few months back to see if they've at least told us what the reason Thor became "unworthy" is for. They haven't. There might be more character development now and I do need to catch up again now that I'm out of grad school, but Thor's character performance was fairly disappointing in arc1 especially given how Aaron has been writing him (really well).

So as far as I have read, it ended up being a very business-as-usual route. The premise was interesting, the execution not so much.

Some of FemThor's lines are pretty great, however.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[Time the Crestfallen]

I pray to God this is fake, and looking at the comment section, it looks like it is, but what's the point of this video?

Something to do with the SCUM Manifesto I'd say.

I stopped reading after the Secret Wars world reset thing partly because grad school hit me in the face really hard and partly because I am getting really fed up with world resets, so I can't say what happens in detail after the pre-Secret Wars business. However, while I get that Thor is really upset because Mjolnir meant a lot to him and is not just a hammer, he spent the entire first arc just trying to figure out who the fuck femThor is while not really much happened with him characterwise there. I did a google a few months back to see if they've at least told us what the reason Thor became "unworthy" is for. They haven't. There might be more character development now and I do need to catch up again now that I'm out of grad school, but Thor's character performance was fairly disappointing in arc1 especially given how Aaron has been writing him (really well).

So as far as I have read, it ended up being a very business-as-usual route. The premise was interesting, the execution not so much.

Some of FemThor's lines are pretty great, however.

You hate world resets to? We have so much to discuss...

So it was as I suspected then. That's disappointing.

Edited September 29, 2016 by The Blind Idiot God

[Thor Odinson]

You hate world resets to? We have so much to discuss...

So it was as I suspected then. That's disappointing.

Yeah, unfortunately. I was looking forward to what Aaron would do with the premise too given his track record.

Maybe I'll change my mind when I pick it up again, but given my google results it might not be likely.

The art's gorgeous, though. Russell Dauterman is a hell of a great artist.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[Rezzy]

I stopped reading after the Secret Wars world reset thing partly because grad school hit me in the face really hard and partly because I am getting really fed up with world resets, so I can't say what happens in detail after the pre-Secret Wars business. However, while I get that Thor is really upset because Mjolnir meant a lot to him and is not just a hammer, he spent the entire first arc just trying to figure out who the fuck femThor is while not really much happened with him characterwise there. I did a google a few months back to see if they've at least told us what the reason Thor became "unworthy" is for. They haven't. There might be more character development now and I do need to catch up again now that I'm out of grad school, but Thor's character performance was fairly disappointing in arc1 especially given how Aaron has been writing him (really well).

So as far as I have read, it ended up being a very business-as-usual route. The premise was interesting, the execution not so much.

Some of FemThor's lines are pretty great, however.

I like a good redemption arc, but the story should be about atoning for one's sins or whatever. Not even knowing why Thor is unworthy is unacceptable at this point. Apparently Thor knows why, since Nick Fury whispers sweet nothings in his ear, but why is it that Thor only loses his powers once he learns this secret we're not privy to? The magical Mjolnir worthiness powers shouldn't be contingent on Thor learning whatever he did to become unworthy. He should have lost his powers when he did whatever he did to become unworthy. It seems like an ass-pull that I'd be angry about if my DM tried to take away my Paladin powers in D&D.

DM: Hey, Rachel, your paladin just lost his powers.

Me: What, why?

DM: You remember that orphan you rescued two months ago? Well, he burned down a hospital.

Me: How is that my fault? He acted righteously in good faith.

DM: Well, it's your fault all those people died. You should have let those bears eat him. He was obviously being punished, since he was chained to a tree in a bear infested forest.

Me: What kind of sense does that make?

DM: Oh, and you better turn in your magic +5 Shocking Hammer of Returning, too. I made an NPC that's taking all your magic items and name, too.

Me: My paladin lost his name, what am I supposed to call him now?

DM: Just call him by his last name or something, I don't care, but he's not a paladin anymore.

[Res]

I also support legalizing prostitution.

I echo Thor about the fake geek girl thing being a myth.

I had a whole post typed up, but really I was repeating myself: Third wave feminism isn't what Anita Sarkeesian et al are pushing. All the complaints about feminism on the last two pages are against White Feminism/TERFs. The Wikipedia definition of third wave feminism is pretty decent.

Re. rape and false allegations/1 in 5: it's interesting to see the discussion here, then go into one of the women-dominant groups I'm in, and see the discussions there (there were actually three rape discussions today alone). I'm always a 'unicorn' in those groups because I haven't been raped/sexually assaulted/molested. And this isn't one group, or a small group; these are pretty large groups with fairly a fairly diverse membership. I'd say probably about 1/4 claims to have been raped and half claim to have been sexually assaulted; now, they may be lying, but they have no motivation to do so. It's not as if they're naming names or seeking revenge, just support. And in many instances they've not told family/friends - sometimes they haven't even told their partners.

This isn't to say that there are large numbers of rapists - of course, it's very likely that it's a few rapists with multiple victims. But I think about their stories and I do think that it IS common and that much of the time, we're simply not aware of it. And quite often the perpetrators are otherwise upstanding citizens, often with families of their own.

Like I said before, I don't think a push to increase reporting/convictions is the answer. But so much effort online goes into trying to disprove victims' experiences and that doesn't help, either.

[Rezzy]

I echo Thor about the fake geek girl thing being a myth.

I don't mind having the wielder of Mjolnir be female, I just wish they hadn't thrown the original Thor under the bus to do so. I'd have preferred Thor become grievously injured or something and retire and pass the hammer off to Lady Thor.

It's sort of like when people got mad that Hal Jordan went crazy and went on a killing spree. People get mad when you mess with their heroes too much.

EDIT: I thought we were talking about Thor the comic book character again, but I guess you were referring to the SF member. I used to follow comics, but it's hard to keep current with a million different series going on and intersecting.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Rezzy

[Time the Crestfallen]

I like a good redemption arc, but the story should be about atoning for one's sins or whatever. Not even knowing why Thor is unworthy is unacceptable at this point. Apparently Thor knows why, since Nick Fury whispers sweet nothings in his ear, but why is it that Thor only loses his powers once he learns this secret we're not privy to? The magical Mjolnir worthiness powers shouldn't be contingent on Thor learning whatever he did to become unworthy. He should have lost his powers when he did whatever he did to become unworthy. It seems like an ass-pull that I'd be angry about if my DM tried to take away my Paladin powers in D&D.

DM: Hey, Rachel, your paladin just lost his powers.

Me: What, why?

DM: You remember that orphan you rescued two months ago? Well, he burned down a hospital.

Me: How is that my fault? He acted righteously in good faith.

DM: Well, it's your fault all those people died. You should have let those bears eat him. He was obviously being punished, since he was chained to a tree in a bear infested forest.

Me: What kind of sense does that make?

DM: Oh, and you better turn in your magic +5 Shocking Hammer of Returning, too. I made an NPC that's taking all your magic items and name, too.

Me: My paladin lost his name, what am I supposed to call him now?

DM: Just call him by his last name or something, I don't care, but he's not a paladin anymore.

That's what you get for playing 3.5e and not rolling a cleric, druid or wizard XD

Re. rape and false allegations/1 in 5: it's interesting to see the discussion here, then go into one of the women-dominant groups I'm in, and see the discussions there (there were actually three rape discussions today alone). I'm always a 'unicorn' in those groups because I haven't been raped/sexually assaulted/molested. And this isn't one group, or a small group; these are pretty large groups with fairly a fairly diverse membership. I'd say probably about 1/4 claims to have been raped and half claim to have been sexually assaulted; now, they may be lying, but they have no motivation to do so. It's not as if they're naming names or seeking revenge, just support. And in many instances they've not told family/friends - sometimes they haven't even told their partners.

This isn't to say that there are large numbers of rapists - of course, it's very likely that it's a few rapists with multiple victims. But I think about their stories and I do think that it IS common and that much of the time, we're simply not aware of it. And quite often the perpetrators are otherwise upstanding citizens, often with families of their own.

Like I said before, I don't think a push to increase reporting/convictions is the answer. But so much effort online goes into trying to disprove victims' experiences and that doesn't help, either.

You could make the argument that, since it's a woman-dominated group, that it's going to attract a higher 'concentration' of rape/sexual assault victims, but eh.

Edited September 29, 2016 by The Blind Idiot God

[Moblin Major General]

I want to draw the line at prostitution, but that's more because i want to protect children and want to believe that women have better alternatives to hooking and stripping, especially the risk of the former. I would say prostitution could be legal through an escort service, but that's the extent I'm willing to go to, unless it was under the same laws as it is in Amsterdam, as well as medical records from prospective customers to prevent HIV contamination.

[Rezzy]

That's what you get for playing 3.5e and not rolling a cleric, druid or wizard XD

I like a bit of variety. I'm currently DMing a game, and playing a Cleric in another.

I want to draw the line at prostitution, but that's more because i want to protect children and want to believe that women have better alternatives to hooking and stripping, especially the risk of the former. I would say prostitution could be legal through an escort service, but that's the extent I'm willing to go to, unless it was under the same laws as it is in Amsterdam, as well as medical records from prospective customers to prevent HIV contamination.

I've known girls who worked as strippers to make money. It's perfectly legal, at least in America. There's a bit of a stigma attached to it, but hopefully that lessens someday.

I'd say legalization would only make things better. I'm not sure what you mean by protecting children by keeping prostitution illegal, I don't think anyone condones child prostitution.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Rezzy

[Time the Crestfallen]

I like a bit of variety. I'm currently DMing a game, and playing a Cleric in another.

Spoken like someone who has never experienced the apocalyptic, all-consuming wheel of cheese that is the majesty of a Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10.

I've known girls who worked as strippers to make money. It's perfectly legal, at least in America. There's a bit of a stigma attached to it, but hopefully that lessens someday.

I'd say legalization would only make things better. I'm not sure what you mean by protecting children by keeping prostitution illegal, I don't think anyone condones child prostitution.

I'd say legalise it, but I agree with Hylian that it should be done through regulated escort services in order to prevent abuse from customers and employers and protect against STDs.

[Rezzy]

Spoken like someone who has never experienced the apocalyptic, all-consuming wheel of cheese that is the majesty of a Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10.

Thankfully, my group doesn't try Munchkinery much. While we're on the subject, have you heard of Pun-Pun?http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)

[Time the Crestfallen]

Thankfully, my group doesn't try Munchkinery much. While we're on the subject, have you heard of Pun-Pun?http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)

We're just trying to maximise our potential!

We actually have campaigns were we agree that munchkinery is allowed (within reason), but the DM will actively be trying to kill us. It's surprisingly good fun.

I have heard of Pun-Pun. One of my players actually tried to do it the cheky lil' cunt. Thankfully, it only works in a Forgotten Realms campaign, so I got to veto it and failing all is, there's always 'Rock Falls, You Die'.

EDIT: The min-maxing can get worse. It can get so much worse!

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2287.75;wap2

Edited September 29, 2016 by The Blind Idiot God

[Tryhard]

The issue is that these kind of feminists are going mainstream. Sarkeesian and Quinn got invited to speak at the UN, Obama has brought up the 'wage gap' and the '1 in 4' (He called it as twenty percent but the issue remains the same), the 'guilty unless proven otherwise' in multiple college rape investigations. The issue is not that they are being the most vocal, but that they are actually being listened to by people with influence.

Do you think that I can't point to, for example, how some of the more pious Christian ideas has influenced politics in America? In terms of say, anti-abortion for moral religious reasons among many other subjects. America is notorious for having politicians who have influence and power being tied tightly with Christianity, you think this won't affect some of their decisions and views?

That's what you get for playing 3.5e and not rolling a cleric, druid or wizard XD

It's a shame, I've been trying to get into D&D/Pathfinder for a while and no-one really plays it that I know, and I don't really feel like crashing an online game or a local store (not even sure where one would be).

I'm kinda aware that wizards are world-warpingly powerful without much thought at higher levels though.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Tryhard

[Time the Crestfallen]

Do you think that I can't point to, for example, how some of the more pious Christian ideas has influenced politics in America? In terms of say, anti-abortion for moral religious reasons among many other subjects. America is notorious for having politicians who have influence and power being tied tightly with Christianity, you think this won't affect some of their decisions and views?

If there's one rule that will survive the test of time, it's that it's only a bad thing when the other guys do it.

It's a shame, I've been trying to get into D&D/Pathfinder for a while and no-one really plays it that I know, and I don't really feel like crashing an online game or a local store (not even sure where one would be).

I'm kinda aware that wizards are world-warpingly powerful without much thought at higher levels though.

Rule of thumb:

-Wizards are balls-to-the-wall powerful at high levels, but suffer in terms of early-game

-Clerics start better, but require more min-maxing to reach the same levels of power at higher levels

-Druids are completely broken, start to end and, in my opinion, will wind up being more powerful than either of those two with much less effort dedicated to munchkinery

That's for 3.5e. If you get 5e, then in my experience Bard is by far the best class, but that isn't saying much since the classes are very balanced this time around, with the exception of Rangers.

Edited September 29, 2016 by The Blind Idiot God