Feminism discussion

[Lord Raven]

Snowy, you're either referring to a discussion that's been resolved ("a trigger warning was literally a definition of PTSD", and it's also used pretty ironically now).

As for safe spaces, this was also the original intention:

It's okay to have a place to yourself where you can be yourself without fear, be it your own room, a comic-con, a gay-bar, or whatever.

So who the fuck are you replying to? In practice these things were fine until they were corrupted by an internet subculture, and even they aren't the majority of people worldwide.

[thepeaguy]

I'm MGTOW, so I neither care for feminism nor traditionalism.

I just don't like the idea of society telling men how they should be whilst women are encouraged to be whatever they want to be.

[Lord Raven]

I don't think that's how that works, considering that's kind of the exact opposite of how society is functioning

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited October 10, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Time the Crestfallen]

I don't think that's how that works, considering that's kind of the exact opposite of how society is functioning

I dunno, I don't really think either gender is encouraged to do whatever.

[Res]

Looked up MGTOW, found the Reddit... wow. That's beyond PUA levels of misogynistic.

[euklyd]

I had to look up both those terms. Y'all should stop talking in acronyms.

There are some things where men are probably more restricted (men dressing in women's clothes is generally a lot more eyebrow-raising then women dressing in men's clothes), but for more fundamental things (how people act) I think men have a lot more freedom and women are more often punished by society for acting in a stereotypically "male" way.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Looked up MGTOW, found the Reddit... wow. That's beyond PUA levels of misogynistic.

Yeah, don't go looking up r/redpill any time soon. I still feel dirty thinking about it.

[Augestein]

I had to look up both those terms. Y'all should stop talking in acronyms.

There are some things where men are probably more restricted (men dressing in women's clothes is generally a lot more eyebrow-raising then women dressing in men's clothes), but for more fundamental things (how people act) I think men have a lot more freedom and women are more often punished by society for acting in a stereotypically "male" way.

Not really. If another female hugs another female and says she looks cute, no one bats and eye. If a male does that to another male, there will be insults hurled about, even if it's joking. Females crying in public rarely will ever be met with "man up." With a male? You can pretty much bet that it'll be said by someone. It's just that male restrictions are generally ignored.

[Lord Raven]

His point was not "men don't have any restrictions," it's "women have more."

[Augestein]

His point was not "men don't have any restrictions," it's "women have more."

That's wasn't his point. His point was that men have less fundamental restrictions than women. I disagree.

[Lord Raven]

You listed two examples...

[Augestein]

You listed two examples...

Yes, I listed two examples for instance where a woman has a free choice with no ramifications and a male does not based on societal reactions. Both sexes have restrictions placed on them. I'm not seeing how somewhere like the United States has massive gaping problems with this. If you want another one, here's one.More people will make a bigger deal out of a man wanting to be a nurse over a woman wanting to be a doctor.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Augestein

[Lord Raven]

I dunno, women are held under much different beauty standards (men don't have to groom nearly as much). Also men can walk outside without a shirt and smoke on their porch; women can't.

Then there's also some societal pressures in certain parts of the country for a woman to become a "stay at home mom" or something, which is what he means by the "tomboy" thing.

[Refa]

Also men can walk outside without a shirt and smoke on their porch; women can't.

Objectively a flaw with modern society for sure.

[Augestein]

I dunno, women are held under much different beauty standards (men don't have to groom nearly as much). Also men can walk outside without a shirt and smoke on their porch; women can't.

Then there's also some societal pressures in certain parts of the country for a woman to become a "stay at home mom" or something, which is what he means by the "tomboy" thing.

And on the flip side, men aren't going to receive as much help if they had a flat tire as a woman would by people passing by. Nor are they going to be taken seriously in the event that they DO have interests in raising their beauty standards. A woman that carries heavier looking objects is more likely to receive help than a man-- regardless if another hand would be helpful.

And on the flip side, a man is pressured against even trying to be a "stay at home father."

Like I said, I definitely don't see less for men. Just that people forget that there are perks and penalties on both sides.

[Lord Raven]

The pressure against those things for men is less in magnitude than the pressure in favor of those things in female

In general women do get scrutinized more for going against the grain than men do - which is why people don't care about stuff like this for men. People pressure women to be homebodies more than men are pressured against it. It's not as bad as before because I can walk up to my parents and tell them I want to be a trophy husband and they would be all in favor but my parents are also pretty liberal.

It's all about the numbers and magnitudes. It also depends on which part of the country you're in, too.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Augestein]

The pressure against those things for men is less in magnitude than the pressure in favor of those things in female

In general women do get scrutinized more for going against the grain than men do - which is why people don't care about stuff like this for men. People pressure women to be homebodies more than men are pressured against it. It's not as bad as before because I can walk up to my parents and tell them I want to be a trophy husband and they would be all in favor but my parents are also pretty liberal.

It's all about the numbers and magnitudes.

Not really. Again, like I said, it's because it's largely ignored by people.

No they don't. Especially nowadays. People do not pressure women to be homebodies more than against men to go to work rather than stay home. A man that doesn't work is considered a "failure" as a man, a woman that goes to work is an empowered woman.

Of which it's still not that women have less freedom.

[Tryhard]

these things are debatable, but i can't say that i don't find the mgtow term to be very cringey.

[Thor Odinson]

personal anecdote time, roughly translated from chinese with extra profanity

me: mom why do you need to know where the fuck I am all the time (I'm 23) and expect me home by 12

her: because you're a girl

me: ...so you're saying if I'm a guy it'd be okay?

her: yes
me: that's fucked up

also:

mom: [to my sister, who is 13] stop swearing so much it's unladylike
me: okay if you don't want her to swear just say don't swear did you have to qualify it with gender?

mom: it's okay for guys to talk rougher

me: fucking shit mate

also:

mom: urgh I don't like that you keep on wanting to lift and get a punching bag it's unladylike and violent

me: okay but you want me to exercise this is exercise I don't hate

mom: you shouldn't be so muscular

and then she asks me to lift heavy things for her make up your mind

I do feel that in the US, while things ain't perfect, as a fairly "masculine" (in the sense of what society ascribes to each gender) woman, I'm not as suffocated by Americans in comparison to all the Chinese people a generation over me CONSTANTLY telling me that I need to be more "feminine" and start doing things they find feminine. However, most Americans I interact with are people my age, who are university-age students or recent-enough grads from a relatively liberal school. Most non-ABC Chinese people I interact with are people who are my parents friends and are thus much older, so there is that demographic issue too.

I tell them to fuck the shit off, at any rate.

(inb4 "move out" look man rent here is kinda super bullshit high and I enjoy paying less than 50% of market price of rent to my mom to save money)

Edited October 10, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[Moira]

It should be pointed out that men are the primary enforcers of the stereotypes behind the social pressures that negatively affect men

[Lord Raven]

And men are also one of the enforcers of feminine stereotypes

There is a lot of scrutiny against women because both women and men reinforce the stereotypes; there is not as much scrutiny against men because men are the ones that primarily say that and women aren't.

I think it's one of those issues that will die with the previous generation though.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Rezzy]

Speaking from personal experience, if anything, I've been pressured/shamed/what-have-you into not spending more time at home. I love my job, but if money wasn't an issue, I might want to work only a couple days a week or so, and spend the rest at home with my kids.

More people try to make me feel bad for wanting to be a stay-at-home than people try to pressure me into it. I can't really think of anyone close to me who has said I shouldn't work outside of home. But I've gotten plenty of people who've said my great brain would be a waste if I stayed home or say I don't take my job as a doctor seriously, because I'd rather spend the evening with my family than volunteer to scrub a surgery at 8:00 PM.

I think in recent years the professional world for both men and women has overemphasized the workplace to the detriment of family life. Trying to raise a family while going through med school and residency is hell.

[Moira]

And men are also one of the enforcers of feminine stereotypes

There is a lot of scrutiny against women because both women and men reinforce the stereotypes; there is not as much scrutiny against men because men are the ones that primarily say that and women aren't.

I think it's one of those issues that will die with the previous generation though.

I'm just trying to point out that when people bring up the stereotypes men deal with, they tend to ignore the root cause, and act like it's not men who are the ones harming themselves. I believe the term is toxic masculinity

[Augestein]

Speaking from personal experience, if anything, I've been pressured/shamed/what-have-you into not spending more time at home. I love my job, but if money wasn't an issue, I might want to work only a couple days a week or so, and spend the rest at home with my kids.

More people try to make me feel bad for wanting to be a stay-at-home than people try to pressure me into it. I can't really think of anyone close to me who has said I shouldn't work outside of home. But I've gotten plenty of people who've said my great brain would be a waste if I stayed home or say I don't take my job as a doctor seriously, because I'd rather spend the evening with my family than volunteer to scrub a surgery at 8:00 PM.

I think in recent years the professional world for both men and women has overemphasized the workplace to the detriment of family life. Trying to raise a family while going through med school and residency is hell.

This. It's sad, because I want to have a family too, but I haven't even really gotten started because of the whole money and work thing.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Augestein

[Time the Crestfallen]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think drawing direct comparisons between men and women in terms of sexism is very helpful. It brushes over too much nuance.