Could Birthright have been a better game if fleshed out?

[Sunwoo]

I was trusting Nanima's word, because I didn't play the localized version of Birthright. I don't know what was said or when. Someone want to source this?

Here's a video link from a Conquest playthrough.

https://youtu.be/FZj7M_xB8Qk?t=45m

From her words, it sounds as if the throne would've been Hinoka's to pass on to Takumi, had he lived. It sounds more as if Hinoka had never expected that Ryouma would ever not be king, and that if it ever came to her to be queen then she would've given the throne to Takumi because she felt she does not have the temperament of a queen. Or something.

Either way, personally I preferred Hoshido having a male preferential succession system as it did in the Japanese. I feel that each of the women wanting to pass on the throne to a male heir is worse than the woman being cockblocked by "the system", not to mention that even modern day Japan has a male preferential system. Heck, Japan is so male-preferential that a girl couldn't even become empress even if she was the only heir they had (that is, if the laws hadn't changed since the last time I looked it up), so places like this do exist in modern first-world societies anyway.

EDIT: Okay, I looked it up. Japan still doesn't let women on the throne.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_succession_to_the_Japanese_throne

Edited October 19, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Nanima]

It's not peacetime that's an issue, it's prosperity. It's already unlikely that these changes would have shown up in a medieval society where most jobs were still extremely dangerous hard labor (It's no coincidence that the feminist revolution didn't take place until various advancements in modern technology made the average workplace stop being actively hostile and made taking care of children cease to be a full time job), I'm just saying that the country where life is more comfortable is definitely not the least likely to abandon strict gender roles.

Life sucked back then. The entire reason gender roles exist is because women are the limiting factor on reproduction and men are therefore biologically far more expendable. Natural selection rewarded us for nearly our entire existence for being sexist pricks and labeling all the stuff even slightly likely to get us killed or seriously injured "man's work" while keeping women in the (relative) safety of the domestic life. Using men as cannon fodder and making women focus on making babies while that was still dangerous to begin with and childhood mortality rates were still high was one of our greatest survival advantages, and nature did not take kindly to any even marginal efforts to change that until life had relatively stabilized in the modern era.

So if I had to guess which country has made any progress towards gender equality, I'd probably pick the one where people aren't constantly starving.

As for the whole Azura, Camilla and Hinoka abdicating thing... I'm a bit confused, I'm wondering if somebody can clarify this for me: If Hinoka only becoming queen as a last resort was actual sexism in the Japanese version, why was Mikoto, who doesn't even have Hoshidan royal blood, allowed to remain queen even after Ryoma came of age?

A time of peace and prosperity is no guarantee for the developement of equal gender rights. Just look at the Joseon Dynasty of Korea, which was responsible for lots of scientific advancement and renewed trade. Not to say that it was always rosy, but generally speaking it was seen as a good time to be alive. For the men. The women meanwhile had basically no rights, and it only got worse over time. Noble women were locked away and often didn't even have personal names (instead eing referred to as 'mother of this guy', 'wife of that guy', 'daughter number X of that guy over there'). Female peasants only got spared, because they had to help out on the fields. In the 500 years that this dynasty lasted, there were so many advancements, but women's rights wasn't one of them.

There needs to be many factors for a change like that to happen. Economic wellbeing and stability is just one of them. There would also have to be a certain willingness to challenge the status quo, a certain feeling that things are not quite as they should be. The people of Hoshido have apparently been living in peace and prosperity for a very long time. Why would they ever think to question the natural order of things? There are certainly people who would, as there always are, but they are likely to few and the public isn't really willing to listen to them. Those are just my thoughts on the matter.

Also, I don't think that Nohr is exactly a bastion of human rights either. Women seem to have more opportunities there, but I am thinking that it's just deeply ingrained pragmatism. If you are fighting to just feed yourself every day, things like tradtional gender roles often fall by the wayside. Who cares what you have between your legs, so long as you are strong enough to survive. It's nicely supported by there being less classism as well. Besides the Awakening kids and Pieri, all the retainers are low born commoners, or even former criminals.

As for the last part, I can only speculate. The likely meta reason has already been made clear (mirror for the Nohrians). My in-game theory is that Mikoto initially became the regent for a then underage Ryouma. Since she was apparently so beloved by everyone and literally responsible for their continued safety, it was decided that she should remain as Queen until death and Ryouma didn't object to this (or it was his idea). It's a bit sketchy from a historians point of view, but not unbelievable.

I was trusting Nanima's word, because I didn't play the localized version of Birthright. I don't know what was said or when. Someone want to source this?

Edit: ninja'd

For comparison, here is the original line:

Hinoka...] Whenever I thought of the next coronation, I expected it to be Ryouma’s or, if not that, Takumi’s.. (即位するならリョウマ兄様だと思っていたし、そうでなければ、タクミが…).

Source:

https://fateswartable.wordpress.com/2016/01/01/nohr-final-chapter-light-that-parts-from-dusk/#more-259

That line change ticks me off really. "My brothers were the born leaders". I can see both Camilla and Azura passing down the crown. Neither of them has any desire to rule. It's not out of character for the warrior focused Hinoka to not desire the Queen title (and considering her brother(s) would have to die/are dead for it, she has a valid reason). But did they really have to have her put it in those terms? Along with Azura saying something similar in regards to Corrin, and Camilla more or less implying the same? It does make sense for all three women not to want these thrones, but the narrative implications the localization unintentionally left us with their change aren't pretty.

I think the change took a good chunk of characterization with it too. Hinoka and Yuugiri's struggles are lessened, when the thing they are struggling against (traditional gender roles) is lessened. Also how much sense does it make that Hinoka was allowed to overfocus on saving Corrin, when she is second in line? Sure, she herself intended to pass it on, but would others have just let her be? As the prospect heir after Ryouma, wouldn't she have gotten at least training for it? Takumi is implied to have gotten some (though Ryouma thinks he needs to learn more), and he generally is quite bookish and obsessed with improving himself.

It makes much more sense for him too, considering his insecurities and drive to be a worthy prince of Hoshido. Ryouma is a warrior who leads troops into battle. His premature death isn't exactly unlikely. Hinoka fights too, but two siblings would make quite the difference in Takumi's mind. Then there is the issue with Corrin (their relationship has quite obviously been designed with M!Corrin in mind, see the Drama CDs) taking away his place in the line of succession and family.. That tiny change did actually have quite the impact really.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Nanima²

[Alastor15243]

There needs to be many factors for a change like that to happen. Economic wellbeing and stability is just one of them. There would also have to be a certain willingness to challenge the status quo, a certain feeling that things are not quite as they should be. The people of Hoshido have apparently been living in peace and prosperity for a very long time. Why would they ever think to question the natural order of things? There are certainly people who would, as there always are, but they are likely to few and the public isn't really willing to listen to them. Those are just my thoughts on the matter.

I realize that that's just one of the factors, albeit a large one, but the point was that the correlation is generally there, or at least not the opposite.

And I still don't get what you're saying in the bolded area. I would argue that it would be extremely difficult to have an unfair system not be noticed in an extended time of not having any more serious priorities unless the people facing injustice also benefit from it in some way and don't want to let that go. So I don't see how, all other things being equal, a society that has few serious problems except sexism (ignoring the war that's only become relevant in the last decade) wouldn't start to notice the sexism more readily than a society that's suffering a major food crisis.

However, one thing hadn't occurred to me when I posed my original argument, and it makes for an interesting thought:

Magic.

It occurred to me later in the day that magic could very easily substitute for the technological advancement I spoke of, and indeed there are several indications that it has in some senses. I mean just take the pairing system for example: I know this is largely a result of gameplay expedience, but childbirth complications seem to basically not exist in this medieval world, and I'm pretty sure that has something to do with magic. And if you'll notice, Nohr is the country that seems to have more advanced magical research, considering they're the country with the highest proficiency in tomes and staves and developed the most powerful one of each. Magic also offers men and women an equal playing field where sexual dimorphism matters less (though admittedly it would appear in this game that musculatory sexual dimorphism flat out doesn't exist, so not sure how relevant that is). Not sure if this would be enough to override the famine-

...Y'know what? Yeah, I'm reeeeeeeaaaaaally over-thinking this. I'm fairly certain we're looking way further into this than the actual writers did.

[Nanima]

I realize that that's just one of the factors, albeit a large one, but the point was that the correlation is generally there, or at least not the opposite.

And I still don't get what you're saying in the bolded area. I would argue that it would be extremely difficult to have an unfair system not be noticed in an extended time of not having any more serious priorities unless the people facing injustice also benefit from it in some way and don't want to let that go. So I don't see how, all other things being equal, a society that has few serious problems except sexism (ignoring the war that's only become relevant in the last decade) wouldn't start to notice the sexism more readily than a society that's suffering a major food crisis.

Read again what I said about the Joseon dynasty. It got increasingly worse for women's rights. Cultural prosperity does not always equal emanzipation. I certainly CAN lead to it, I am not denying that. But the opposite can also be true. What was the state of France before the French Revolution? Famine and poverty. People had accepted being subjects of some guy on a throne for millenia, that's just how it was (divinely ordained even). What resulted in revolution was a comination of factors: Access to education was one thing (especially the concept of divine rule being debunked during the Age of Enlightenment), active suffering under the system was another.

We do see some Hoshidan women (Hinoka and Yuugiri again) express dislike over their current situation, but it's nowhere near "Women should be equal in all regards. We have to dismantle the Patriarchy" levels. They simply shrug and say that what's expected is not what they personally want in life. Even today, there is still a lot of sexism around, and many cultures (see Japan) insist on preserving the 'tradition' of male only monarchs. (Which is bunk, considering that there were several female emperors in the past)

Your comment about sexual dimorphism threw me off a little there.. While men can be generally expected to be stronger, there are many more factors that play into effective fighting techniques.

Speaking of government status quo. It's a lot harder to debunk the concept of divinely ordained rule when your royalty can literaly shape the land around them and have special holy weapons that only they can wield.

And yes, we are thinking more about it than the writers, but so long as we are having fun I don't see the problem.

[Alastor15243]

Your comment about sexual dimorphism threw me off a little there.. While men can be generally expected to be stronger, there are many more factors that play into effective fighting techniques.

Strength is a pretty major factor, and it's a difference for which women have no corresponding trump card to even things out, so there's a significant advantage there for men, especially considering just how insanely brutal the physical demands of being a soldier can be. With magic, however, as long as we assume it goes by intelligence, the playing field is far more equal as men and women are equally intelligent on average (though apparently some studies indicate that the spread is different between the sexes and that men have more geniuses and idiots than women do, but I'm not sure about those). And my second point was that Fire Emblem clearly violates the laws of physics with what its soldiers are capable of and does it equally with men and women (case in point, Effie and Charlotte are at a comparable strength level to the strongest man in the game, who, let's not forget, is a gigantic hulking werewolf), so I'm honestly not sure whether the first point should even be taken into account when discussing Fire Emblem gender politics.

As for your argument that hardship is a necessary component of change, yes, that can happen, but only if the battle against that hardship is ill-served by the status quo. A hardship that the status quo is our strongest weapon to fight against is not going to change anything. A situation that made it less viable to have the men do the important/dangerous tasks would certainly stand a chance of bringing about cultural reform, I agree. But I doubt that a famine would qualify, because even though times are harder, simply adding in women to the workforce wouldn't do too much to improve the economy since there would be the same number of jobs available, the same amount of resources the army has to train and equip recruits, so if the prevailing belief is that men are more suited to these things, there would be little to gain from testing this in a famine aside from probably increasing the overall competence of the workforce rather than add any significant manpower.

As I said though, by all appearances child-rearing complications and child mortality rates don't seem to be issues in this universe, though that could just be the narrative intentionally whitewashing what is generally an unnecessarily dark component of ancient life. But if, for the hell of it, we take it as canon, that plus the complete lack of evident strength differences between sexes in this world would certainly explain why there's as much gender equity in the Fates universe as there is.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Alastor15243

[NekoKnight]

Thanks to Sunwoo and Nanima for the source. I'll concur with others by saying that I'd much prefer Hinoka getting shafted by the system (and Takumi x Ryoma suggests Takumi is being trained for leadership, whereas Hinoka gets no mention of it) than her passing the torch like every other princess.

Magic.

It occurred to me later in the day that magic could very easily substitute for the technological advancement I spoke of, and indeed there are several indications that it has in some senses. I mean just take the pairing system for example: I know this is largely a result of gameplay expedience, but childbirth complications seem to basically not exist in this medieval world, and I'm pretty sure that has something to do with magic. And if you'll notice, Nohr is the country that seems to have more advanced magical research, considering they're the country with the highest proficiency in tomes and staves and developed the most powerful one of each. Magic also offers men and women an equal playing field where sexual dimorphism matters less (though admittedly it would appear in this game that musculatory sexual dimorphism flat out doesn't exist, so not sure how relevant that is). Not sure if this would be enough to override the famine-

...Y'know what? Yeah, I'm reeeeeeeaaaaaally over-thinking this. I'm fairly certain we're looking way further into this than the actual writers did.

Even if there were advanced healing magics (and I don't think S rank tomes and staves is an indication of anything other than game design), they probably wouldn't be readily available to the lower classes, who are presumably the majority of the population. If the real world is any indication, even when there is a surplus of resources (which Nohr doesn't have), people often horde them to themselves. How many mage/troubadour peasants do we see?

In two pages, we gave more thought to the story than a 1,500 page draft did.

Edited October 20, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Alastor15243]

How many mage/troubadour peasants do we see?

To be fair, we don't see many non-generic peasants period. But we do see Nyx, who seems to be a total social outcast and lives on her own like some kind of hermit, I seriously doubt she's overly wealthy. But then again, that's after she already learned. Was there any indication in her supports of what social class she was in in her youth?

And yeah, the S rank thing was a stretch, but it's hard for anything to not be a stretch here. We're talking about the unconsidered implications of random background details nobody really thought about, and there's not much else to go on here XD

Edited October 20, 2016 by Alastor15243

[Nanima]

Strength is a pretty major factor, and it's a difference for which women have no corresponding trump card to even things out, so there's a significant advantage there for men, especially considering just how insanely brutal the physical demands of being a soldier can be. With magic, however, as long as we assume it goes by intelligence, the playing field is far more equal as men and women are equally intelligent on average (though apparently some studies indicate that the spread is different between the sexes and that men have more geniuses and idiots than women do, but I'm not sure about those). And my second point was that Fire Emblem clearly violates the laws of physics with what its soldiers are capable of and does it equally with men and women (case in point, Effie and Charlotte are at a comparable strength level to the strongest man in the game, who, let's not forget, is a gigantic hulking werewolf), so I'm honestly not sure whether the first point should even be taken into account when discussing Fire Emblem gender politics.

As for your argument that hardship is a necessary component of change, yes, that can happen, but only if the battle against that hardship is ill-served by the status quo. A hardship that the status quo is our strongest weapon to fight against is not going to change anything. A situation that made it less viable to have the men do the important/dangerous tasks would certainly stand a chance of bringing about cultural reform, I agree. But I doubt that a famine would qualify, because even though times are harder, simply adding in women to the workforce wouldn't do too much to improve the economy since there would be the same number of jobs available, the same amount of resources the army has to train and equip recruits, so if the prevailing belief is that men are more suited to these things, there would be little to gain from testing this in a famine aside from probably increasing the overall competence of the workforce rather than add any significant manpower.

As I said though, by all appearances child-rearing complications and child mortality rates don't seem to be issues in this universe, though that could just be the narrative intentionally whitewashing what is generally an unnecessarily dark component of ancient life. But if, for the hell of it, we take it as canon, that plus the complete lack of evident strength differences between sexes in this world would certainly explain why there's as much gender equity in the Fates universe as there is.

My entire point is: It is possible for a country to be wealthy and prosperous, and still be lacking in regards to civil rights. I even gave examples of it (Joseon Korea, modern Japan). The things is, there are multiple factors that lead to that kind of development. Prosperity is one thing, but a willingness to challenge the traditional order is another. We see none of that with Hoshido. Tradition seems to be a big thing for them, as is not surprising considering their Asian influenced culture. An important thing about history is: Just because one thing worked in that way for one culture, doesn't mean it works the same for another. There are multiple factors playing into this, and really I don't see how Hoshido's more rigid gender standards (which are already far more lax than the real time period it was designed after) are impossible just because of their economic situation.

And like I said, Nohr isn't really progressive in the normal sense. It's just that they got bigger things to worry about.

[Alastor15243]

My entire point is: It is possible for a country to be wealthy and prosperous, and still be lacking in regards to civil rights. I even gave examples of it (Joseon Korea, modern Japan). The things is, there are multiple factors that lead to that kind of development. Prosperity is one thing, but a willingness to challenge the traditional order is another. We see none of that with Hoshido. Tradition seems to be a big thing for them, as is not surprising considering their Asian influenced culture. An important thing about history is: Just because one thing worked in that way for one culture, doesn't mean it works the same for another. There are multiple factors playing into this, and really I don't see how Hoshido's more rigid gender standards (which are already far more lax than the real time period it was designed after) are impossible just because of their economic situation.

And like I said, Nohr isn't really progressive in the normal sense. It's just that they got bigger things to worry about.

My argument was never that Hoshido being slightly backward was impossible because they were well off. My point has always been that prosperity is more likely to contribute to social reform than to detract from it.

Yes, it is possible for a country to be wealthy and prosperous and still be socially backward, but your original argument was that the prosperity made it less likely that reform would happen, and my argument is that if anything, prosperity makes it more likely.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Alastor15243

[Avalanche]

"Could this game have been better if the developers spent more time fleshing it out?".

I don't know many games that wouldn't improve if the devs had more to work on them.