Ensemble Mafia - N5

[yedi]

and what did you find regarding it?

did you not read my huge post (i could understand if not cuz that shit was disgustingly long)?

the post has stuff regarding this. specifically it plays a part in why i find rainbow scummy.

[Ryker]

He seems to think you're obvtown, which is impossible for anyone to be in the current gamestate. It's more beneficial for us if Mallow is caught up and see if he agrees or disagrees with the cases on you to update his opinion, because right now Mallow's read of you is based on exchanges from page 14.

I think he's obvtown in the current gamestate........

[Ryker]

Ah I see how you could have interpreted my read on Elemina that way. I don't know how many times I have to say that I have a town read on Elemina (and Ryker, and Spinal, and Irony). I said this in my first post in the game. I clarified this last night. I don't town read her for her role. She lacks the aversion to risk as scum would have. She's been contently trying to push the game forward and comes off as very obviously trying to figure things out. All of her bazillion posts have had scumhunting intent behind them.

And this is why. Good post.

[Ryker]

I get the same feeling. Elemina seems to be constantly revising his reads based on whomever may remotely want him lynched. It's so distinct that I want to read Elemina's recent games on other sites to check for the same behavior, if any such games are available to view.

If Elemina were new to mafia it'd be a fairly textbook scumtell, but I wonder if it's just a reaction to playing on an unfamiliar forum, causing some level of universal outward distrust/paranoia?

Why is that a textbook scum tell? Town does it all the time too.

Also, was Refa looking to lynch Elemina before Elemina pushed for Refa? I expressed no intent to lynch Elemina at any point in the game and Elemina put me on the scum list.

[Ryker]

Mm, I hope I'm not personally offending you btw, that's not my intention.

Apparently you've been talking with some of the people in the SF mafia skype group, so I was asking some of them. If I rolled scum in my first game on a forum I'd never played on, I'd probably be linking the players a particular game where the idea of my meta they'd get would be more beneficial for my current scum game. So... my first thought wasn't to ask you personally, no.

Wait, you're talking about things in the thread outside of the thread?

Also, are you interested in ACTUALLY reading through games from another site when you were complaining about needing to read this game? Legitimately, will you put in the effort to read these games if I provide them?

[Ryker]

tbh I really want to see his flip because this back-and-forth is not doing much in terms of telling me about his alignment. I still maintain that his slot is the best lynch (in a vacuum, disregarding cases) because it gives town the most positive gain regardless of the actual flip; if it's a mislynch we get confirmed numbers, and if it's a scum lynch then yay. We simply don't get this deal from anyone else's lynch right now.

Would you make a lynch based mainly on this?

[Green Poet]

Ryker, I think should get fully caught up rather than asking me about every post you find questionable as you read them. A lot of what I'm seeing you stop and ask about is answered by the course of the thread in later pages.

[Ryker]

wait Ryker, you didn't know who Elemina was early on?

why did you direct this question to him back then?

Because it was the one active player who seemed to have a similar grasp on how to handle the beginning of a mafia game.

[Ryker]

Ryker, I think should get fully caught up rather than asking me about every post you find questionable as you read them. A lot of what I'm seeing you stop and ask about is answered by the course of the thread in later pages.

Uhm, answer #529 and #530 for me regardless of if they've been previously asked.

[Ryker]

No. I will actively fight the idea of using games played outside SF as valid evidence, and all of those who support it. Even if that means that I will have to defend Ryker for a few posts.

Hahahah. I actually appreciate that, man.

If you were to take my recent games from the site I generally played on, you'd lynch me on the spot. I'm playing far more similarly to the way I used to play games on that site years ago.

[Ryker]

I just think you're a member of the mafia (manners) with no real direction to go. That information benefits us so extraordinarily little and I don't think you truly believe otherwise.

Sidenote: The term "scum" is used because the term for mafia is different across communities. I started where it was called Werewolf. Certain games call them things based on flavor (Filthy Nohrians for example). Scum is a catch-all to avoid confusion, not slander.

[Ryker]

Seriously, think about it like this.

Scum!GP baits Ele into claiming (truthfully) numbers informed. So this hypothetical scumteam now knows that Ele is now nothing but a VT.

Why would scum!GP refocus and turn around what was effectively a null read on Ele and do anything to try to get him lynched? He is automatically now the worst mislynch for scum because scum!GP know he's VT. Literally anyone else is a better mislynch for scum!me to orchestrate. Why go for this lowest-value mislynch, on the person whose towniness I just corroborated by talking about how I was cleared as town in another game with his role?

Uhh, because it's easy?

Various slots had expressed interest in lynching Elemina and you obviously thought it was something that could get lynched (regardless of your alignment). At the point where you shifted, it hadn't become obvious you were going to run into resistance to the lynch from slots like Yedi or Hober Mallow.

I could go further into possibilities of scum being in hot water if the lynch didn't settle (maybe Rainbow or Refa or even you), but that's WIFOM. Unless you have good reasons to say why these things AREN'T the case, you can't use WIFOM to defend yourself.

[Blitz]

1)tbf i did start skimming the later shit.

2)but wait a sec, why are you opposed to a Rainbow/Proto lynch...? are you that confident that he's town? and if so why.

3) also, you think I'm scum?

4) actually this was one of the posts I read that I felt like you explicitly didn't push HM. and what I mean by push is that you said a lot of stuff about how you disliked his slot however that post is missing a vote.

5) my case / thought process is right there in my large post and my tldr post. Not sure why you think I dislike your slot for no reason.

1)hmm, ok, must be why you missed all the reads. I did not post them together, they exist on different posts, but I did talk about SB, Refa, Proto, Elemina, Yolo, Green Poet, Hober Mallow. There is a function called ISO in the OP, learn to use it, if you decided not to read the thread

2)Learn to read

3) for now, I think you are an ignorant null read, trying to make me look like a hypocrite in an attempt to save your friend Elemina. You are either a friend of his, who respects him and thinks he is being treated badly or his scumbuddy

4) Once again, learn to read

and in the case you still can't figure out when my vote came in, it came in a post before that one

5) maybe because you don't know how to read and the points you brought up were redundant, simply because you didn't read my posts.

did you not read my huge post (i could understand if not cuz that shit was disgustingly long)?

the post has stuff regarding this. specifically it plays a part in why i find rainbow scummy.

sorry for quoting that one, I forgot to remove it since I had that placed at an earlier point.

So, basically, after all that reading, you came up with 2 scum reads and of which, one of them is completely on blatant lies, while the other one has a point, but wrong because he provided his own points of view, not copied off of someone else.

and if you ask me, what you did is much worse because you made up your case on not even knowing what is going

[Green Poet]

sure.

Why is that a textbook scum tell? Town does it all the time too.

a priority on self-preservation is a scumtell much more so than a towntell. scum getting lynched is pretty much always detrimental to their wincon, town getting mislynched is not as bad for town, and much more often has some meaningful silver linings, etc.

I would only ever consider reflexive casing and self-preservation to be a towntell in the case of newb!town

Wait, you're talking about things in the thread outside of the thread?

no lol, come on, that'd be cheating. I asked prims if he could link me the forum frequented by the people in this game who came from other sites, and I still haven't gotten a reply. that question doesn't have to do with the specifics of to do with this game, and it doesn't break any of the rules afaik. I'm sure boron would/will have words with me if this is not the case.

Also, are you interested in ACTUALLY reading through games from another site when you were complaining about needing to read this game? Legitimately, will you put in the effort to read these games if I provide them?

I'm in the process of reading hellville mafia atm.

would I be willing to thoroughly read several more games... tbh... that's actually a lot of work, so probably not... sorry.

I could go further into possibilities of scum being in hot water if the lynch didn't settle (maybe Rainbow or Refa or even you), but that's WIFOM. Unless you have good reasons to say why these things AREN'T the case, you can't use WIFOM to defend yourself.

I can't argue re: ele being the next likeliest wagon and scum!me jumping on it, because it's actually true that he was. I looked back and checked and apparently on page 23 ele did have the second most votes, at 2. so... yeah, that's just a fact I don't have anything to say against.

I think it's obvious that scum!me would have had a significantly easier time trying to move the HM or even the spinal wagon over flip flopping on ele, because I'd already had cases on them. but I understand that saying something like that means little because it didn't happen and can't be proven.

saying "scum wouldn't do this" doesn't automatically invoke or become nulled by wifom. if you look at it in terms of objective gains and losses for the scumteam, town!ele is simply their worst mislynch. it is actively worse play towards their wincon to lynch town!ele over anyone else.

like, if it's mylo and town mislynches, town knows they've lost. none of them are going to say "it's invalid because of wifom to believe that scum will make the game-winning nightkill. you can't presume to guess what they're doing," because it's just objectively good for them to do it and everyone realizes that. while mislynching ele will not lose scum this game right now nor will lynching not-ele cause them to win, what I'm trying to say is that I think you should reconsider what I'm saying about scum's motivation/lack thereof to mislynch him, rather than just dismissing it all as wifom because it ventures into the realm of daring to consider things from scum pov.

[Ryker]

##Unvote Vote Green poet

HM actually covers most of my grievances with the slot as I read through the day. As it stands, we're reaching the end of the day and we need to find a lynch. Of the things that have been mentioned:

Rainbow:

YOLO, Yedi, and myself would vote, but there's no way we got a chance to get that one right now.

Elemina:

YOLO, Yedi, myself, and HM at least will not vote this slot. 2 more people come out unwilling to vote this slot and it's off the table. I'll fight tooth and nail to avoid this lynch going through.

Refa:

Almost no one is willing to take that lynch. Not happening.

Blitz:

I don't even know my stance on Blitz. My eyes slide off his posts because they're long and mostly concern things I care little about. I will be more active in an hour and a half and I will go reread him and SB's early posts. I don't think there's enough play to lynch this one.

Green Poet:

I think this is the most likely lynch to punch through and it's the one I currently have as my favorite sans Rainbow.

Hober Mallow:

Has been thrown around occasionally, but I'm unsure if people are actually interested in lynching this slot. I think he's town after watching him mirror my reactions in my absence.

If there's anyone else that people are interested in lynching, cases better be coming through now.

I'd go Rainbow, GP, or Kirsche atm, but I think GP is the only one I can get.

[Ryker]

I'll be here at deadline.

[Ryker]

sure.

a priority on self-preservation is a scumtell much more so than a towntell. scum getting lynched is pretty much always detrimental to their wincon, town getting mislynched is not as bad for town, and much more often has some meaningful silver linings, etc.

I would only ever consider reflexive casing and self-preservation to be a towntell in the case of newb!town

no lol, come on, that'd be cheating. I asked prims if he could link me the forum frequented by the people in this game who came from other sites, and I still haven't gotten a reply. that question doesn't have to do with the specifics of to do with this game, and it doesn't break any of the rules afaik. I'm sure boron would/will have words with me if this is not the case.

I'm in the process of reading hellville mafia atm.

would I be willing to thoroughly read several more games... tbh... that's actually a lot of work, so probably not... sorry.

I can't argue re: ele being the next likeliest wagon and scum!me jumping on it, because it's actually true that he was. I looked back and checked and apparently on page 23 ele did have the second most votes, at 2. so... yeah, that's just a fact I don't have anything to say against.

I think it's obvious that scum!me would have had a significantly easier time trying to move the HM or even the spinal wagon over flip flopping on ele, because I'd already had cases on them. but I understand that saying something like that means little because it didn't happen and can't be proven.

saying "scum wouldn't do this" doesn't automatically invoke or become nulled by wifom. if you look at it in terms of objective gains and losses for the scumteam, town!ele is simply their worst mislynch. it is actively worse play towards their wincon to lynch town!ele over anyone else.

like, if it's mylo and town mislynches, town knows they've lost. none of them are going to say "it's invalid because of wifom to believe that scum will make the game-winning nightkill. you can't presume to guess what they're doing," because it's just objectively good for them to do it and everyone realizes that. while mislynching ele will not lose scum this game right now nor will lynching not-ele cause them to win, what I'm trying to say is that I think you should reconsider what I'm saying about scum's motivation/lack thereof to mislynch him, rather than just dismissing it all as wifom because it ventures into the realm of daring to consider things from scum pov.

Self preservation is a null-tell unless mathematics proves your lynch will win. You don't let clears get lynched and the clear you are most confident in is the one you get with your role PM. You.

Bruh, we are not arguing WIFOM, are we? HM is a hard wagon to push because it's based on lack of information, not a clear and easy stance. Lol at getting a Spinal wagon moving forward.

[yedi]

fwiw i still dislike blitz

[Green Poet]

ugh, this is going nowhere.

ok, rkyer, read my latest post real quick. we seem to have posted at more or less the same time and you may not have seen it before voting me. let me know if it doesn't change your mind (I don't really expect it to but :shrug: we'll see) and I'll propose a new solution. need to get this out of the way before EST people start heading to bed.

[Ryker]

Alright, I'm gone for about an hour and a half. Be back soon.

[Green Poet]

truly incredible timing

who's still here

[Ryker]

Feel free to post another solution, but you'll have to sell me on something I like more than your slot or prove I can't get it.

Also, keep in mind we need to get our shit together in time to get a claim from whoever we're going to lynch.

[Ryker]

I'll keep an eye on the thread. I just can't go digging through it like I want.

I'm AROUND, just not primarily available.

[Green Poet]

only like 3.5 hours left in phase so I'll just do the stuff now

I'm something like a governor (official role name is muckraker). if the lynch threshold is not met, I can direct the lynch. obviously this is not a scum role. so, I think it is valuable for me to use this role to lynch the slot who has the next highest number of votes (or some other method). obviously, if said person does not die, lynch me tomorrow etc. etc. inb4foiled by lynchproof

according to this game's rules, we need 7 to lynch at deadline.

I'm claiming now because I'm not confident we could arrive at this sum even if we played organically, plus I think I have enough people voting me that it's just more productive to state this instead of trying to repeat "I'm not scum." also, the chances that I'd even have a chance to use this role on d2+ are slim, due to generally having more content to work with from then on, so I think it's fine if I do this and am subsequently NK'd n1.

so, votes?

[Blitz]

only like 3.5 hours left in phase so I'll just do the stuff now

I'm something like a governor (official role name is muckraker). if the lynch threshold is not met, I can direct the lynch. obviously this is not a scum role. so, I think it is valuable for me to use this role to lynch the slot who has the next highest number of votes (or some other method). obviously, if said person does not die, lynch me tomorrow etc. etc. inb4foiled by lynchproof

according to this game's rules, we need 7 to lynch at deadline.

I'm claiming now because I'm not confident we could arrive at this sum even if we played organically, plus I think I have enough people voting me that it's just more productive to state this instead of trying to repeat "I'm not scum." also, the chances that I'd even have a chance to use this role on d2+ are slim, due to generally having more content to work with from then on, so I think it's fine if I do this and am subsequently NK'd n1.

so, votes?

If we are doing this, I would like the next best person (Elemina) lynched. I have waited long enough for him and I have a sleep schedule

##Unvote:

##Vote: Elemina

I would like to warn you that, if you decide on a scumread of yours, you better justify your case in thread (and it better be a good reason), before you go for it.

I will agree your role is unlikely to be scum, but it is possible town has a lot of power roles and you are a balancer of it (my role says that is not the case, though, but it is still a possibility)