How many people would prefer another tellius-styled narrative as opposed to another fates?

[Thane]

Yeah pretty much. When I say "better characters and story" I'm of course talking about my opinion rather than stating objective facts. I don't have a problem with anyone who likes fates more than the tellius series or who think that they're better than my favorite games. The reason I keep making posts like this is because I DO like them unironically and I also like asking you guys questions about them and how you all feel about them. Basically I want to assess how many people actually want something like what I want.

I still think it's a bit silly. Your examples of "Tellius storytelling" are not exclusive to Tellius at all, so it pretty much boils down to asking people if they want better stories and characters or not, and you're asking it on a forum where most people have a negative view of Fates' story.

Character death scenes were really good IMO, and more "adult". By adult I mean the way (and the context of their deaths) they die which is more raw and brutal than in the past (except Genealogy of The Holy War, you know which moment I'm talking about, but the graphics were... not as "realistic" as they are now so it had a weaker impact on me).

I strongly, strongly disagree. Death scenes in Fates felt like they were forced into as a simple way of trying to add shock value even though the buildup and execution were straight up lacking and had little to no payoff. Izana, Lilith and Flora are the biggest examples of this.

I never cared about a single death in Fates because they were so poorly executed, and much like their, what, four or five betrayal subplots, it felt like they were just going through the motions and trying to add excitement and raising the stakes the only way they knew how (and by 'know how', I mean they didn't know what else to write, not that they were actually good at it).

I also loved the tone of the story, especially in Conquest. It's a bit dark and mystical (especially near Endgame), and I like the idea of Conquest's Corrin, forced to to take the pain on herself (because I prefer Female Corrin in Conquest, MLP really got the right tone for her) and suffer again and again through the story under King Garon's orders for a noble purpose. Of course it has its flaws in execution, but the concept was great IMO

The problem is that they got everything but the concept wrong.

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

I strongly, strongly disagree. Death scenes in Fates felt like they were forced into as a simple way of trying to add shock value even though the buildup and execution were straight up lacking and had little to no payoff. Izana, Lilith and Flora are the biggest examples of this.

I never cared about a single death in Fates because they were so poorly executed, and much like their, what, four or five betrayal subplots, it felt like they were just going through the motions and trying to add excitement and raising the stakes the only way they knew how (and by 'know how', I mean they didn't know what else to write, not that they were actually good at it).

The problem is that they got everything but the concept wrong.

[spoiler={Major Conquest and Birthright Spoilers}]

The story around it may be forced sometimes (like Flora, but with context I was rather referring to Elise's), I still consider that most of these scenes (just the scene, if you forget what's around) were well-executed. Especially Ryoma's with the music, perfect voice acting and Raijinto's lightnings that made the scene really strong and chocking. So I think a future FE could continue with that, if the story-telling was better.

The concept is still pretty strong and correctly "used". There are a lot of points around it which could've been better (like Corrin's dragon form which isn't used at all, the way to show Garon's true form and this kind of stuff), but I rather enjoyed Conquest's story overall. It gets a bit boring from Chapter 15 to 21 (and that's were you recruit some children so it seems to be longer) but the rest is fine in my opinion (except Chapter 26 which indeed feels forced to punish the bad guys). Not incredibly deep or well-executed, but still enjoyable. I would've appreciated if it was a bit less predictable sometimes (I mean, when you fought Sakura then Takumi you guess that the next chapters will be Hinoka and Ryoma) and the invasion should've been longer than 4 chapters in which you fight your siblings.

I think the game just suffers from being split in 3 parts because it led to stupid decisions. The concept is interesting (more than Pokemon games' for example) but 2 games may have been better probably. Like a mix between between Revelations and Conquest. I haven't play revelations yet but the Valla thing was pretty good in Conquest IMO. Made an interesting atmosphere.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Brand_Of_The_Exalt

[Tolvir]

I say a mix. I want the 2nd gen gone, avatar needs to take a step back (not gone, but definitely not the main lord), and Inwould prefer no dual stories this time.

I would like to see the marriage system stay, but get more fleshed out. Expand it beyond just marriage, but also friendships and general relationships between characters. I like the current support system, but would like to see the amount of supports for the avatar be lessened. Make it based off of personality chosen from the beginning. Weapon Durability needs to be gone permanitely, new forging system needs to stay and be expanded on, My Castle should stay and be expanded on, avatar customization needs to be expanded.

But that is probably off topic. Story wise, if we are going dual perspective, then it really depends. Tellius was structured the way it was because it was showing different points of view on one story. Fates was structured based on an alternate universe style story depending on your choice. Too different to really compare the two.

[Aurabolt]

Hmm...I think the next Fire Emblem game--assuming it's released on the 3DS--will reference Fates in some way. The Awakening Trio's Chapters + Before Awakening establish Fates and Awakening both take place in the same timeline but different worlds. I think what may be best for the third game is assuming they bring back a MU for the next game, they wouldn't be a Lord (Corrin) or revealed to be connected to the Engame (Robin). Not saying they're not important at all, just they're not vital to the story's plot like Robin and Corrin were. Just make them a part of the army with supports but not at the top in terms of importance to the story's plot. Important but not THAT important.

I feel like Fate's biggest flaw was how they chose to use Corrin (all 3 routes). Corrin's either a lapdog (Conquest), an avenger (Birthright) or an idealistic fool (Revelations). The sibling deaths in Birthright made no sense (One literally died for nothing as Corrin ended up fighting the other anyway). Corrin allowing the Cheve Massacre in Conquest made no sense (on that note, I agree doing it as Fem!Corrin was better). Don't even get me started on Corrin deciding to become the ruler of a dead kingdom in Revelations (Xander and Ryoma would've happily given hiim land anyway). I feel like at the end of the day, there were a crapton of missed opportunities.

The lack of a reaction from ANYONE to Corrin's Dragon form after the first transformation...it always bothered me how "okay" everyone one is with that. "Oh look there goes Corrin transforming into a dragon." You'd think anyone seeing a prince randomly transform into a dragon would draw a much stronger emotional reaction. Then again, to explain that would mean to explain how exactly Azura knew what to do during that first encounter, which she can't because of the conveniently specific Vallite Curse. Not using Lillith in Revelations was a missed opportunity given her true relationship to Corrin and all. She doesn't appear at all, which again was a missed opportunity.

I'm still holding out hope we might actually see a Sacred Stones remake with a combination of mechanics from Fates and Awakening. Saving that for a separate thread, though.

[Darros]

Honestly at this rate anything would be better than Fates. A barely-there story would be better than Fates.

FE writers don't make me regret saying that.

[shadowofchaos]

OP, I honestly think you have a weird association of what is "Tellius-styled" and what isn't.

If you had said the way the battle animations were done and their movements... that would be stylistic of the Tellius games.

When you make these threads, you really are repetitive when you keep talking about the Tellius games as some sort of standard. Since you're using them as a point of comparison, you tend to highlight the Tellius games.

It's like "which of these do you think this is better?" lining up choices and putting the spotlight on the two main character statues of FE9 and FE10 Ike with glitter and attractive female models gesturing it as the netter choice. At least that's what you've been doing in the forum recently.

A friendly reminder that at one point, Fates' sins were Radiant Dawn's by being the latest title to do badly on story (Blood pact, Pelleas, Micaiah, Ike, Part 4) and nonexistent supports. Conquest was pretty much the successor to the Blood Pact in all honesty.

Base conversations (which have chapter story context instead of simply supports that you can trigger whenever you want) character development aren't Tellius exclusive. Or did you forget the DS games?

Gameplay elements to FE9 and 10 borrow from many FE games before it. Especially the skill system. That's from FE4 if you look at the JP names.

Edited November 30, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Radiant head]

fates very much feels like an attempt at "Tellius-style" narrative (or at least my guess as to what that even means). Birthrights is in the broad strokes comparable to path of radiance in fighting the empire, and revelations is radiant dawn with opposing factions coming together in a morally complex way. though it didn't work as well, which is saying something because radiant dawn was an ambitious mess too.

cautiously optimistic about the eventual fe15 on the switch though, especially if it looks more home console-ish like tellius

[Etrurian emperor]

fates very much feels like an attempt at "Tellius-style" narrative (or at least my guess as to what that even means). Birthrights is in the broad strokes comparable to path of radiance in fighting the empire, and revelations is radiant dawn with opposing factions coming together in a morally complex way. though it didn't work as well, which is saying something because radiant dawn was an ambitious mess too.

cautiously optimistic about the eventual fe15 on the switch though, especially if it looks more home console-ish like tellius

I can't quite agree with that comparison. The story of Tellius stands out primarily for its world building and that's an area where Fates is lacking in. The main characters are also quite the contrast. One is a commoner who has to work for everything and who has to grow up while the other is a noble who never stops getting cuddled.

I also think that Birthright goes beyond ''broad strokes'' and into bare bones territory which is something that POR never did.

[nhaer042]

As long as there are no separate versions again, I don't really care how the series wants to tell its stories again. Something with a little more narrative substance would be nice but I've never played FE for the plot so that won't be a huge deal breaker for me if the story is subpar again.

I don't see why "S" and "A+" ranks shouldn't be a mainstay. I always hated the "5 conversations only" stuff we got with previous games. I will say that I wouldn't be a huge fan if the open world or DLC returned. Fire Emblem has never really struck me as a series that was meant to be open world. I know Fates isn't the first game to do it, but even past games that tried it, I never really felt needed it. I have mixed feelings on reclassing but I wouldn't hate to see it back.

Children need to stop being a thing. Or at least take a break from them. I think the series has exhausted all plausible excuses to include them. I think to keep including them would just take time away from the developers they could be using to flesh out the story and main characters.

Edited December 1, 2016 by nhaer042

[Radiant head]

I can't quite agree with that comparison. The story of Tellius stands out primarily for its world building and that's an area where Fates is lacking in. The main characters are also quite the contrast. One is a commoner who has to work for everything and who has to grow up while the other is a noble who never stops getting cuddled.

I also think that Birthright goes beyond ''broad strokes'' and into bare bones territory which is something that POR never did.

agree with all of that actually. i just think there was the intent of world building and nuance, at least moving in that direction from awakening, but it didn't quite hit the mark.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I can't quite agree with that comparison. The story of Tellius stands out primarily for its world building and that's an area where Fates is lacking in. The main characters are also quite the contrast. One is a commoner who has to work for everything and who has to grow up while the other is a noble who never stops getting cuddled.

I also think that Birthright goes beyond ''broad strokes'' and into bare bones territory which is something that POR never did.

Ike receives command of a military force at age 17 for no other reason than his dad had it and died, which is... not a good argument that he's a "commoner who has to work for everything". I do think there are some contrasts there (like Ike being less sheltered and having a stronger moral compass), but I don't think the gap is nearly as large as you make it out to be. Both Ike and Corrin are clearly cut from the FE lord cloth.

Agreed about the world-building, though, for all that I do group Tellius and Fates as the only recent FEs which actually even attempted much in the way of moral complexity. I do think one does it better, of course, but the parallels are there.

[NekoKnight]

Ike receives command of a military force at age 17 for no other reason than his dad had it and died, which is... not a good argument that he's a "commoner who has to work for everything". I do think there are some contrasts there (like Ike being less sheltered and having a stronger moral compass), but I don't think the gap is nearly as large as you make it out to be. Both Ike and Corrin are clearly cut from the FE lord cloth.

Agreed about the world-building, though, for all that I do group Tellius and Fates as the only recent FEs which actually even attempted much in the way of moral complexity. I do think one does it better, of course, but the parallels are there.

Ike is given command of a small mercenary band, some members leaving as soon as his father dies. That's quite a departure from 'literal chosen one, dragon-child born into 2 royal families (and the eventual inheritor of a third kingdom) who is loved by everyone in the universe except for some irredeemable monsters."

Edited December 1, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Darros]

I don't see why "S" and "A+" ranks shouldn't be a mainstay. I always hated the "5 conversations only" stuff we got with previous games. I will say that I wouldn't be a huge fan if the open world or DLC returned. Fire Emblem has never really struck me as a series that was meant to be open world. I know Fates isn't the first game to do it, but even past games that tried it, I never really felt needed it. I have mixed feelings on reclassing but I wouldn't hate to see it back.

Children need to stop being a thing. Or at least take a break from them. I think the series has exhausted all plausible excuses to include them. I think to keep including them would just take time away from the developers they could be using to flesh out the story and main characters.

I agree with this bud I'd like to add that if they're keeping S and A+ rank conversations they should either make all characters be able to support each other or limit supports for all characters of all genders, so no "Character of one binary gender can support ALL other characters of the other binary gender but only like two of their same gender." So like if all characters had support pools like Sumia that'd be cool. There'd be no reason for "everyone can marry everyone" if they pulled out children ((which they should)).

[MCProductions]

Ike is given command of a small mercenary band, some members leaving as soon as his father dies. That's quite a departure from 'literal chosen one, dragon-child born into 2 royal families (and the eventual inheritor of a third kingdom) who is loved by everyone in the universe except for some irredeemable monsters."

Corrin wasn't born into the Nohrian royal family tho, he literally wound up there by coincidence at best and thru war crimes at worst. Hell, his living conditions in Nohr were less royalty and more of that of a prisoner, albeit a comfortable prisoner. And while Conquest's narrative overall is garbage, Corrin DOES have to earn the shit he gets beyond the Yato in that route and Revelations, and the Yato can be handwaved for all intents and purposes as EVERY divine weapon in Fates just chooses it wielder with no indication of anything about them except maybe bloodline. Not to say Corrin isn't a mary sue, because he sure as hell is, but I honestly feel he's an improvement over Robin and ESPECIALLY Kris.

[Etrurian emperor]

Ike does get control of his mercenary company because he is his fathers son. But this also costs him. Two of the senior members take issue with this and leave. Most of the royals probably have even better reasons to object to Corrin's leadership than Shinon and Gatrie do to Ike's because of how sheltered and naive Corrin is yet they don't really question Corrin being in charge for any reason other then Corrin's own well being.

Ike also gets control of an actual army but this requires him to become part of a social class he has no respect or understanding for.

[NekoKnight]

Corrin wasn't born into the Nohrian royal family tho, he literally wound up there by coincidence at best and thru war crimes at worst. Hell, his living conditions in Nohr were less royalty and more of that of a prisoner, albeit a comfortable prisoner. And while Conquest's narrative overall is garbage, Corrin DOES have to earn the shit he gets beyond the Yato in that route and Revelations, and the Yato can be handwaved for all intents and purposes as EVERY divine weapon in Fates just chooses it wielder with no indication of anything about them except maybe bloodline. Not to say Corrin isn't a mary sue, because he sure as hell is, but I honestly feel he's an improvement over Robin and ESPECIALLY Kris.

I mean that he was brought into the family since a young age. He might be at the top of Garon's shit-list but he has the full support of the rest of the royal family. Aside from the Garon interactions, he looks like he lived a comfortable life in his keep, with devoted servants and plenty of books to read. Regardless, it's not about how great his life was, it's about where he starts and finished. Kamui starts at the top and stays at the top. Kamui is made the defacto leader despite being the bottom of his social hierarchy and the only only people he has to 'prove' himself to are psychotic bullies. There is a lot more growth for Ike who goes from 'shadow-of-his-father' to leader of the combined Crimean liberation force.

Ike does get control of his mercenary company because he is his fathers son. But this also costs him. Two of the senior members take issue with this and leave. Most of the royals probably have even better reasons to object to Corrin's leadership than Shinon and Gatrie do to Ike's because of how sheltered and naive Corrin is yet they don't really question Corrin being in charge for any reason other then Corrin's own well being.

Ike also gets control of an actual army but this requires him to become part of a social class he has no respect or understanding for.

I would add that Ike was able to take leadership of the Crimean liberation force because he had been earning Elincia's confidence over the course of the game and the only one supporting her interests. Had Lucia, Geoffrey and Bastion been with Elincia since the beginning, it's likely they would be in charge.

[pinguyFrank]

I'm leaning more to something new as now that the franchise is considered with more importance by Nintendo, that fact it's a huge game changer.

But actually i'm more interested in the opposite: how the actual gameplay elements, public perception and game design could affect an old title remake?

[EdeaCreamer]

I haven't played Fates, but looking at the information on here and the Fire Emblem wiki...this game looks huge, and not necessarily in a good way. Split into three different titles, spanning hundreds of chapters in total on top of skirmishes in two of them, and an enormous number of different, usually intricate mechanical elements...frankly I saw all of this and felt like I was trying to study for part of a college entrance examination rather than just settling down to play a game (though that might be the target audience's cup of tea). The story is apparently even more ambitious than the mechanical aspects, though unfortunately this aspect seems to have fallen flat (in particular making MyUnit the main character sounds like a big mistake, and I don't know what to make of the Songstress other than she seems to be an inelegant, yet multi-purpose plot device).

I almost feel like one would need to address which mechanics to keep, leave out or modify before even addressing an approach to the next story, and whether or not said story needs to be spread out over multiple titles like this. One thing I am fairly certain about, however: the DLC model for additional content is absolutely a thing that's going to stay, both free and paid (in particular paid). Since that makes adding things to the base game a given, perhaps said base game shouldn't be quite as complicated as Fates seems to be. Do others want FE15 to be just as 'big' as or 'bigger' than Fates, and also require multiple titles?

[SSJDennis]

I like the GBA series best. Sure, RD or PoR had better graphics, but I didn't like the characters/enemies as much.

SD also felt like a big step backwards, I can't blame the bad sales figures of it. The game was just too basic for a modern FE game.

The next game didn't make it to EU/US which is still very unfortunate... I do think they could still launch it, to gain some easy cash.

They could even make a "cheap" 3DS bundle with a both games on a single cartridge. Just saying...

What I really would like for a new FE game? Drama. Get to the timeline of Lucina. Let us go through it al, with detailed maps.

Let us feel how it is like to find one of your parents death corpse... The need to kill your mother, or she will kill you, not knowing anything from her life before beeing a Risen.

In the end we confront Grima, in a broken world. We can succeed and get a "good" ending. A bad ending and a"true" ending. Beeing Lucina running back to the past...

Would be a gr(ave)eat story with lots of potential.

[Shoblongoo]

Not gonna lie: I thought they were laying the foundation to take us back to Tellius when they teased out Priam in Awakening. Would love to see another Tellius game, but I don't trust the current writing team to pull it off. They would need to get rid of everyone responsible for the fates train wreck and start from scratch, to do it right.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Shoblongoo