+5 -5 Effective speed?

[kayoyo7401]

This is probably a stupid question, but what does +/- 5 effective speed mean on the Excalibur and the Chakram? I know what effective speed means, but how does +/- 5 work?

[Maritisa]

It means you can get bizarre stuff like this

Where 4 attacks will take place with no brave weapons, assuming both sides survive both attacks. So yes, exactly as you think it works. Easier for you to double them, easier for them to double you. It effectively drops/raises it by the difference of a speed tie, which can lead to odd things like this.

first person to find the two other strange things with this picture gets a cookie.

[GoXDS]

another way to put it as serenes site puts it: Defence and Resistance -5, follow up attack speed +5, enemy’s follow up attack speed +5

that description's probably clearer

[shadowofchaos]

None of that ever implies both can double.

[Augestein]

Effective meaning the net speed. IE, having a steel weapon makes your speed always -3 when using a steel weapon. IE, if you have 20 speed and attack an enemy while using an iron weapon, assuming there are no skills, you will have 20 speed versus the enemy. However, if you attack an enemy with a steel weapon, you get -3 speed. So your effective speed is 17 even if your standard speed is 20. IE, if you double an enemy when you have 20 speed, you WON'T double it if you're using a steel weapon unless you have a tonic, rally, or some skill like Darting Blow. It's just a note telling you "this weapon raises / lowers stat by x when it uses sit."

In the case of the follow-up, it seems to use that for "2nd attacks." IE what most people call "doubling." IE, you attack with +5 speed for a follow up attack (assuming you now have +5 speed over the enemy you can get another chance to attack), and the enemy ALSO gets +5 speed when attempting to double. IE, it doesn't stop you from not being doubled-- it still checks for your base speed against the enemies. In other words, I hate these weapons.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Augestein

[Alastor15243]

I would've just said "Reduces the doubling threshold to 0".

[maninbluejumpsuit]

I find it's difficult to actually make the text any more clear than it is already, but I'll try to make an example of how I think it should work...

Chakram-wielder's speed: 30

Enemy's speed: 30

For attacks, the chakram-wielder's speed will be 35 against the enemy's 30.

When the chakram wielder is being attacked, the enemy's speed will be 35 against their 30.

That should explain how a situation like this picture happens without brave weapons.

https://d3esbfg30x759i.cloudfront.net/ss/WVW69jQn5xweiRkSNb

In that specific picture, Kana has a raider yumi, so his speed is possibly anywhere between the same as Selkie's, to 3 points lower than her's.

Meanwhile, as long as Selkie's speed stat on the character window at least either matched, or surpassed Kana's, Selkie was guaranteed to double him too.

In short, try to attack your enemy under impunity with these weapons, or else the enemy may as well be the ones equipped with them.

Edited November 16, 2016 by maninbluejumpsuit

[UNLEASH IT]

Guys somewhat related to this, what would happen if two Chakram users with the same speed stat were to fight each other? Do they both double or do neither of them double? Has anyone tested out the result? Is anyone willing to? I don't have the game on me at the moment.

[shadowofchaos]

Guys somewhat related to this, what would happen if two Chakram users with the same speed stat were to fight each other? Do they both double or do neither of them double? Has anyone tested out the result? Is anyone willing to? I don't have the game on me at the moment.

They still both double.

(My Castle bonuses cause the damage difference and critical difference)

Essentially, the +5 for your follow up attack and their -5 resistance to follow ups make you double.

While their +5 for their follow up attack and your -5 resistance to follow up attacks make them double.

Effectively saying you're both 10 speed faster than each other in regards to doubling only.

+5 from your weapon gets applied when you're attacking.

-5 from your weapon gets applied when you're defending.

+5 never gets applied to when you get attacked from either weapon.

Makes me wonder if Steel weapons only apply the -3 when attacking and not determining if you get the -3 penalty when getting attacked. And raider weapons only give the +3 when attacking and not when one gets doubled.

And throwable range weapons with -5 never have this weird situation because they can't double.

If one were to hack that off... could this happen with a raider weapon and a hacked double able Kodachi?

Edited November 16, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Erior]

I would've just said "Reduces the doubling threshold to 0".

Probably not; if you have 20 speed, you'll double both an enemy with 15 speed and one with 12 speed, but, with 17 effective speed, you'll double the one with 12 but not the one with 15.

Likewise, with 20 speed an enemy with 22 won't double you, but one with 25 will, but, with 17 effective speed, both will double you.

-3 effective speed means you need an advantage of 8 points to double somebody, and an enemy only needs an advantage of 2 to double you.

However, what has been said about not quite knowing the minute details still stands.

[UNLEASH IT]

They still both double.

BRUH. That's fucking cool. Say what you will about Fates, but the double attacking threshold was a pretty nifty addition.

So how does this play out exactly? I'm assuming that it's something like this:

X attacks

Y attacks

X attacks again

Y attacks again

So if it's X attacking, Y will die if he doesn't have enough HP and the reverse will be true on Y's turn. (Provided that neither party misses or crits)

[shadowofchaos]

I'd have to buff the hell out of his defense via save hacking or RAM hacking. Neither of them will survive with that weapon with that pathetic def.

Edited November 16, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[maninbluejumpsuit]

Makes me wonder if Steel weapons only apply the -3 when attacking and not determining if you get the -3 penalty when getting attacked. And raider weapons only give the +3 when attacking and not when one gets doubled.

And throwable range weapons with -5 never have this weird situation because they can't double.

If one were to hack that off... could this happen with a raider weapon and a hacked double able Kodachi?

Thing is, steel, and raider weapons specifically effect the equipped unit's ability to double attack. Not their vulnerability to being doubled themselves.

All it does it make it so a steel weapon-wielder needs 8, or more speed on their character window over their opponent to double them. Raider weapon-wielders only need at least 2 speed over their opponent to double.

The generic throwable weapons drop effective speed vs enemy attack, unlike steel weapons.

[Mackc2]

BRUH. That's fucking cool. Say what you will about Fates, but the double attacking threshold was a pretty nifty addition.

So how does this play out exactly? I'm assuming that it's something like this:

X attacks

Y attacks

X attacks again

Y attacks again

So if it's X attacking, Y will die if he doesn't have enough HP and the reverse will be true on Y's turn. (Provided that neither party misses or crits)

I'm fairly sure its actually

X attacks

Y attacks

Y attacks again

X attacks again

but don't quote me on that I'm not actually very sure