FE10 Tierlist 2017

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

It sounds kinda strange but I'd give Edward more credits in HM than in NM, because other units like Aran or Nolan suffer way more in HM.

Aran will have speed trouble for the entire game.

Nolan starts to struggle in 1-2 already. As for Edward he needs the strength and speed early on to become usable, but unlike Edward he will have a harder time to get levels because he can't double at all except for priests maybe, if you're lucky. Also his HP and defense growth aren't great. Two steel axes can kill him in 1-3 already, and if he doesn't work on these stats fast, it'll become only worse. (dragon shield as panic button) Then his big trump card (bulkyness) will be gone.

Edward will be the only first tier unit besides speed transfer Jill who'll be able to double and oneround most of the enemies in part 1. His perfomance in part 1 is the reason, why I consider him as the second best first tier DB member behind Jill in part 1, even better than Nolan.

In part 3-6 and 3-13 it'll change since he can't be used as front unit anymore. However still useful enough with stormsword-wrath-crits. It's the part when Nolan starts to shine.

However since part 1 features more chapters, honestly I'd give Edward a higher ranking than Nolan in HM. (I gave both the same rating 7.5)

Overall I'd rate Edward 5.5 and Zihark 7.5 (in HM). I don't think that's unreasonable whatsoever. Ignoring everything else, Zihark has lower opportunity costs in an army that's really scarce for resources/availability. That's really the only main factor necessary.

(In NM, Edward being 7 and Zihark 8 -- Edward is allowed to be given BEXP with not much detriment to the army and can actually fight axe users and reliably avoid their attacks, making it easier to train him while still given reign to train other units as well). Reason why Zihark also drops slightly is because his EXP is almost cut in half in part 1 and goes from being 3HKOed to 2HKOed in some instances (from 1-E onward).

It sounds like that you'd like to leave your votes for both?

If so, then tell me the exact number, please.

I've never seen recruitment being a factor against any unit, in ratings, tier lists and debates. It's good to be considered but it hasn't been in action as far as I can tell since (some examples off the top of my head) Stefan can be recruited at Turn 5 with full moves, and (extending recruitment to other games), Lucius can also be recruited by playing ltc.

The recruitment shouldn't really influence the rating.

Rating an unit just should depend on the unit's usage.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Eleanor Hume

[Radiant head]

i find all the tier 1 units not jill or nolan to be unusable in hm.

aran is ok i guess, but it's still easier to just ignore him.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Radiant head

[Sweet_Basil]

i find all the tier 1 units not jill or nolan to be unusable in hm.

aran is ok i guess, but it's still easier to just ignore him.

There's Leonardo and Laura? She's really good with healing and can put laguz or Ike to sleep, Leo's turnaround in part 3 he's more helpful.

[Dunal]

It sounds kinda strange but I'd give Edward more credits in HM than in NM, because other units like Aran or Nolan suffer way more in HM.

Aran will have speed trouble for the entire game.

Nolan starts to struggle in 1-2 already. As for Edward he needs the strength and speed early on to become usable, but unlike Edward he will have a harder time to get levels because he can't double at all except for priests maybe, if you're lucky. Also his HP and defense growth aren't great. Two steel axes can kill him in 1-3 already, and if he doesn't work on these stats fast, it'll become only worse. (dragon shield as panic button) Then his big trump card (bulkyness) will be gone.

Edward will be the only first tier unit besides speed transfer Jill who'll be able to double and oneround most of the enemies in part 1. His perfomance in part 1 is the reason, why I consider him as the second best first tier DB member behind Jill in part 1, even better than Nolan.

In part 3-6 and 3-13 it'll change since he can't be used as front unit anymore. However still useful enough with stormsword-wrath-crits. It's the part when Nolan starts to shine.

However since part 1 features more chapters, honestly I'd give Edward a higher ranking than Nolan in HM. (I gave both the same rating 7.5)

I'm really not sure why Edward is performing better than others in part 1. Any objective number crunching would suggest otherwise.

Edward cannot dodge axes anymore. EXP gain is lower and he is more EXP reliant than anyone else not named Meg/Fiona.

And lets look at a random enemy in 1-4:

2x Cat lvl 5

HP 34, Atk 18, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 34, DEF 8, RES 4, Crit 8, Ddg 1

Edward on average at level 9 (gained just over a level per map -- which is still tricky in hard mode that gives 20 EXP a kill) will have 19 ATK with a steel sword and 14 speed. He's dealing 10 damage so needs 4 round to kill the cat. With 6 DEF and 23 HP he also gets killed in 2 hits... by a cat.

Nolan at level 11 (gained half a level per map) has 23 ATK with an iron axe and 11 speed. Nolan has 31 HP and 10 DEF. He gets killed in 4 hits by said cat. And benefits even more from a Dracoshield because then it's 6 hits. Giving Edward the shield lets him get killed in 3 hits instead.

This is consistent throughout all of part 1. Aran has more favourable numbers as well. Especially in 1-6 with the Horseslayer and being 4H or 5HKOed.

Moving on a bit, enemies in 1-7 also have 15 speed on average. Edward needs to be level 16 by then... That's not really happening unless you give favouritism. Even Nolan won't be that high at this point at standard use (about 14-15?). And even if he is doubling, he needs the Killing Edge or Brave Sword to kill anything in one round outside of maybe a mage (and has to be immediately healed every time he fights with not much exception).

FE is all about numbers -- so personal experience doesn't really apply without providing them. Basically, you can hypothetically train Edward a lot to kill one enemy per phase. But that sounds less impressive when another unit is required to lure in enemies for Edward to feed on, and requires healing when he does get hit -- which in hard mode, will actually happen against axe users.

It sounds like that you'd like to leave your votes for both?

If so, then tell me the exact number, please.

Not necessary since the numbers in the OP are about right when taking into account all modes. So I wouldn't really be affecting them. 6 for Edward and 8 for Zihark are accurate and what I'd rate them overall. Upon reflection, I'd still rate Zihark an 8 on HM because avoid becomes even more important.

Edited January 9, 2017 by DLuna

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Edward gains experience easier than other DB members in HM, because he can actually oneround several enemies by doubling.

His role in HM is the exact opposite as in NM: In NM he's good against axes and in HM he's good against lances. Soldiers do the exact the same damage as in NM and have even worse hit against him due to the disabled weapon triangle. And Edward with support can even take two steel lance soldiers.

In 1-5 he can easily oneround all the mages including boss from the ledge and makes your life much easier.

Nolan can maybe double in 1-3 in NM with the hand axe because enemy fighters and soldiers have -2 AS (-1 strength and -1 speed), but not in HM anymore... unless you can bring his speed to 13 at the end of 1-2 which is almost impossible without RNG blessing.

Edward and Nolan have the exact same speedgrowth, but Edward has the advantage that he has two more base speed and one more chapter to grow in this stat.

[Dunal]

Edward gains experience easier than other DB members in HM, because he can actually oneround several enemies by doubling.

But:

1. He needs more of it. He's level 5 at 1-1 while Nolan is level 9 with much better bases.

2. "Easier" doesn't have any basis and you're not fully explaining why. Edward has low base STR, the weakest weapon type and struggles to double a lot of enemies unless he's vastly overleveled.

You haven't really looked into the examples I've provided. A couple of cats murder Edward and he can't double them.

His role in HM is the exact opposite as in NM: In NM he's good against axes and in HM he's good against lances. Soldiers do the exact the same damage as in NM and have even worse hit against him due to the disabled weapon triangle. And Edward with support can even take two steel lance soldiers.

In 1-5 he can easily oneround all the mages including boss from the ledge and makes your life much easier.

You really need to look up numbers because that's not rue at all. How is he suddenly better against soldiers when they deal the same damage to him as NM? Bare in mind that they would have 1-2 more base STR in HM (enemies are auto levelled 3 times in HM and they have a 50% STR growth).

Here's a 1-7 soldier:

1x Soldier lvl 14 (Steel Lance, Turn 1, southeast)

HP 29, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 116, Avo 36, DEF 12, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 8

Here's Edward at 1-7

Edward lvl 12 (Steel Sword)

HP 26, Atk 21, AS 17, Hit 123, Avo 46, DEF 8, RES 2, Crit 13, Ddg 12

Soldier does 16 damage to him. He's not surviving two attacks without the Seraph Robe.

Edward 4HKOs the soldier and can't even double (he needs to be level 15 which highly unlikely at this point without favouritism).

Me thinks you'd have a really blessed Edward in a particular PT and are using that as a basis of your argument. It's not fair to do that. Edward cannot fight lance users well at all. I mean, if he's SPD blessed and has the Brave Sword, he can kill them in a single round now. But he's still dying easily and killing things on enemy phase just makes matters worse.

Oh and that soldier has 70% hit on him which is ~77% true hit. Edward isn't reliably dodging as you say.

It's only gets worse against things like armor knights.

Nolan can maybe double in 1-3 in NM with the hand axe because enemy fighters and soldiers have -2 AS (-1 strength and -1 speed), but not in HM anymore... unless you can bring his speed to 13 at the end of 1-2 which is almost impossible without RNG blessing.

Edward and Nolan have the exact same speedgrowth, but Edward has the advantage that he has two more base speed and one more chapter to grow in this stat.

Nolan does a lot more in a single hit (5-7 damage) and can survive. Doubling isn't an important factor when enemies have such high speed to the point where Edward is struggling to double unless he's blessed. There's archers in 1-7 with 16 speed and even armor knights with 14 speed. There's also a bunch of soldiers with 15 AS and you need a level 16 Edward to double them.

Edited January 9, 2017 by DLuna

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I see the problem right here.

You were talking about a "normal" leveled Edward.

Also I don't see a support right here.

In my runs Edward is normally ~ level 15 at 1-7 mainly because he gained about two levels in 1-4 and 1-5 and 1-6.

(Please let us not talk about favoritism again. I think I explained well enough how to level him.)

So if we're talking about a level 15 Edward (in my case), he would have +2 more strength and +1 defense.

Then let him give A-support with Leonardo: +2 attack and +3 defense

So this the current Edward now:

Edward lvl 15 (Steel Sword)

HP 28, Atk 25, AS 19 DEF 12 (attack + defense support already included)

Soldier lvl 14 (Steel Lance, Turn 1, southeast)
HP 29, Atk 24, AS 14, DEF 12

Okay, he can't oneround him (I believe a forged iron sword can do +2 more damage than a steel sword, but I'm not sure), but he can take two hits at least.

[Augestein]

Can't make a long post because I'm on the phone, but yes, a forged sword is +2 attack assuming it's maxed.

[Shadow Mir]

I still believe that people are too harsh on Edward and too light on Zihark.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I tend to be harsh on units who have repeatedly failed me in the past.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Alright, then he can still oneround the soldier without using an energy drop.

[Radiant head]

There's Leonardo and Laura? She's really good with healing and can put laguz or Ike to sleep, Leo's turnaround in part 3 he's more helpful.

oh yeah I use them too. meant more like nolan and jill are the only ones I use that end up with part 4/endgame potential

[Augestein]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I tend to be harsh on units who have repeatedly failed me in the past.

Maybe, it's crazy because dluna rated Ed higher than I did :)

That might be why in his redux I thought Ed was more or less the same while many felt he was stronger. I'm starting to think I just have a nutcase play style. Leo was the guy that stood out the most. Oh, and Meg. Meg is incredible in it.

[Dunal]

If Edward is gaining two levels per map then what's other units getting?

Evaluation

In 1-5 for example, you're giving Edward 10 kills in 6 turns? Edward isn't killing on enemy phase and doesn't even have the Killing Edge or Brave Sword at this point.

1-P: 5 kills for full level. Micaiah and Leo get the other 3 kills split between them. He's now almost LV5.

1-1: 5 kills for a full level up. Micaiah/Leo and Nolan get the other 6 kills (you can tell how generous I'm being to Eddy at this point). LV6.

1-2: 6 kills out of 19. Sothe showing up means we're giving him some kills for efficiency sake and It'll be like that for a while. Otherwise we're just wasting time to baby Edward. We'll let Micaiah get the boss kill as well. LV7.

1-3: 7 kills out of 25 is fair. Aran might want some kills. Nolan as well. Micaiah is probably getting dibs on the boss since she can one-shot. Sothe is doing whatever he does still. LV 8.5.

1-4: 6 out of 17 kills. LV 10. Barring in mind that Laguz give a bit more EXP than normal.

1-5: 5 kills on average. LV 11. He's starting to struggle even more at this point because his weaponry is limited compared to others.

1-6: 6-7 kills on each map. You now have Tauron, Volug and Jill herself who are helping to clean up along with Sothe/Nolan/Edward. LV 13.5.

So LV 13 or maybe 14 is reasonable.

So this the current Edward now:

Edward lvl 15 (Steel Sword)

HP 28, Atk 25, AS 19 DEF 12 (attack + defense support already included)

Average LV15 Edward (which is indeed over-leveled) has 11 DEF total with supports. 9 DEF base. Borderline needs a Dracoshield to survive more than two hits. The later soldiers in the map also have 26-27 ATK. And archers have 25-26.

Regardless of all this. Edward is looking shaky and isn't even all that great after training him (the most out of any other unit) so far.

Meanwhile Zihark exists at this time and is performing much better. Then when part 3 rolls around their stats will be similar.

And this is me as someone who still thinks Edward is an above average unit who can be okay overall, just not stellar or notable compared to others. He's like Soren, Boyd or maybe Rolf. They're okay/decent but are surrounded by better units.

That might be why in his redux I thought Ed was more or less the same while many felt he was stronger.

Edward was/is changed in ReDux to be about as powerful if you focus a lot on him (higher bases and promotion gains and overall lower growths). But stronger overall if you use him less or promote him early. And that's a good thing because Leo/Ilyana/Meg/Volug wants their share of kills now too.

It also really helps in his case enemy stats vary far far more. You now have enemies with near 18 AS (peg knights) or as low as 8-10 (armors) on say, 1-6.

This means that unit performance is rarely borderline. Performances are consistent across each unit almost regardless of what level they are until promotion. Edward doesn't need many levels at all to consistently double the enemies he wants to double. And no matter how over-leveled he is, he isn't doubling those Peg Knights or myrmidons.

Maybe, it's crazy because dluna rated Ed higher than I did :)

I appreciate his 1-P to 1-2 performance for the most part. Not sure if I'm overvaluing that or not.

Edited January 9, 2017 by DLuna

[Augestein]

I honestly think he's perfectly average. I'm starting to think it's our different philosophies on units and play styles that are coming into play here.

I just feel like he isn't bad at all.

Like I honestly think tier 1s go like this for raising: Jill, Nolan, Edward, micaiah, aran, Leo, Meg, Fiona, ilyana.

Like I think Ed is in the top 3. Leo I don't worry about raising because Leo strangely functions well with or without exp. He just has horrible ending potential.

[Dunal]

That order is not necessarily wrong except from Aran IMO. Who I believe is about on-par with Edward overall due to being tankier and having better 1-2 range. Also one-shotting cavalry in 1-6.

He also seemingly benefits the most out of defensive supports and the Dracoshield/Robe. Bringing him up to ~25 DEF from the start of part 3. That's 4/5 damage from a cat. 10 from a tiger. So he's 4RKOed consistently which no other unit can achieve except Tauroneo.

Edward has more kill potential and 1-P to 1-2. I'd both rate them 6. Aran's offence isn't even bad anyway due to high STR.

Edited January 9, 2017 by DLuna

[Augestein]

For me it's because you get enough super units to where tanks aren't consistently needed. 3-12 is the biggest problem and 3-13 your yellows can die for you.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

If Edward is gaining two levels per map then what's other units getting?

Honestly I focus on giving the kills to Jill and Edward to make them consequently doubling the enemies.

I know that Nolan often tends to fall behind a bit... but it mostly works for me.

I always ignore Aran because he's a wasted slot for me in HM. He's ok for tanking the cavs. in 1-6-2. That's the only really useful thing he can do.

Leonardo is only here for chipping. He doesn't really need too many levels. However 15 speed at the end of part 1 would be quite nice for part 3.

Like I honestly think tier 1s go like this for raising: Jill, Nolan, Edward, micaiah, aran, Leo, Meg, Fiona, ilyana.

That would be my order in NM.

In HM it would be for me:

Jill, Edward, Nolan, Micaiah, Leonardo, Aran, Meg, Fiona, Ilyana

In part 3 I train Nolan more than Edward, and Leonardo more than Micaiah since Micaiah can only mainly gain experience for healing.

[Radiant head]

my order is probably jill, nolan, aran, leo, ed, illyana, fiona/meg

use the first two in hm, next three in nm, and used illyana on my one easy mode play through. never used fiona/meg

[Dunal]

my order is probably jill, nolan, aran, leo, ed, illyana, fiona/meg

use the first two in hm, next three in nm, and used illyana on my one easy mode play through. never used fiona/meg

You can justify Leo on hard as well.

Needs to reach level 10 only (doable by 1-7 and then you can bench him until part 3). Then Beastfoe + Speedwings + Master seal. Can 1RKO every enemy on 3-6 and 3-13.

Granted the Speedwings are contested. But you're getting another useful unit for almost free. Worth it IMO. He gets exclusive access to both the Brave bow and Lughnasadh. Brave Bow is used to kill the kitties in one round. Lughnasadh for everything else.

If he doesn't reach LV10 by 1-7 (understandable) you can just deploy him as a filler unit in 1-E and grab a few kills that's leftover. Then he makes the hard part in part 3 quite a bit easier.

Edited January 9, 2017 by DLuna

[Radiant head]

well that sounds pretty good

actually don't think aran is that bad in hm, but lowmanning makes the db chapters much easier than spreading out the exp so he gets screwed over almost purely from priority.

[Sweet_Basil]

If Leo is this good in HM what's he doing way down there in the 3s? He seems more like a 5/6 by what i'm reading.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Sweet_Basil

[Radiant head]

iirc I gave him a higher rating. the fact that his growths are so bad just means his utility is more unconventional than your usual orko/dodge everything unit, which actually is more fun even if it's not as impressive

would actually argue he makes better use of wrath than ed when seal'd

Edited January 9, 2017 by Radiant head

[Dunal]

If Leo is this good in HM what's he doing way down there in the 3s? He seems more like a 5/6 by what i'm reading.

Many people overlook this particular setup for Leo. It's mostly because he can abuse effective damage at 2 range with not a whole lot of investment.

The thing is, a lot of people overvalue units on "potential" or growths etc... So in a vacuum, Leo doesn't seem very good. But he doesn't need a whole lot of growth considering his contibution.

With a steel bow he can freely chip enemies for ~10 damage throughout part 1. Water support can be kinda handy for some units. Good on the ledge on 1-5 w/ the Iron Longbow. One-shots the peg knights in 1-6. Can poke mages without taking much damage. And in part 3 he's the best player phase unit (outside of 3-12) without even needing to do much in part 1.

And none of that has to do with stats and growths which what is kinda weird about him but also why people overlook him.

Leonardo is a solid 6. His part 1 is kinda average/meh but still better than some other units. Part 3 he's great. Part 4 he's benched but you have a ridiculous amount of other units (including Shinon/Rolf) and Leo has performed solidly enough prior to that.

You can train him much more though to make him useful in part 4. Marksman is a really powerful class and you can justify using two of them. But it's unnecessary and the DB part 3 maps are some of the more difficult maps in this game -- and you're going to be far more tight for useful units at that point.

Praise Beastfoe I suppose. Without it he'd drop to a 4.5 IMO (still has his uses in part 1).

[Radiant head]

does he make better use of beastfoe than nolan? or is it more like nolan works fine without it because of tarvos

[Dunal]

does he make better use of beastfoe than nolan? or is it more like nolan works fine without it because of tarvos

Basically, Leo benefits from it far more than any other unit and he's freely deployed.

Let's say that Nolan goes from a 7 to an 8 from having beastfoe.

Leo goes from a 3 to an 8.

He becomes the best player phase unit because he can freely kill anything he wants without taking damage.

In other words, you basically get an extra good unit without much effort. With Nolan you'd just be making an already good unit better.

Your roster of 5-6 good units goes up to 7. That's kinda huge, so it's worth doing.

Even if you really don't want to give him speedwings (to kill tigers), he can still 1RKO any cat with the Bravebow, and chances are one will be in range each turn. And then you give him the Taksh in 3-13 and he one-shots everything. He could have 0 speed at that point but still be a murder button. So yeah, speedwings if you want him killing tigers. No speedwings if you just want him target everything else. The latter might be the more more viable option IDK (which if it is, makes him even better as a unit since then he only needs 6 level ups, a master seal, and a skill).

Edited January 9, 2017 by DLuna