Fate's problem

[Thane]

I think it's hard to boil Fates' problems down to a single post, especially since it differs what people are looking for in a game and what breaks their immersion. There are many things I'd say are badly written, but in regards to not being able to get into the game and immerse yourself in it, I've got a few theories:

First of all, the cast doesn't speak to each other in the main story outside of spouting exposition and things relevant to the plot. The Nohrian siblings have one scene in the very beginning and one before chapter seven of Conquest starts, and that's about it; the Hoshidans virtually remain strangers to Corrin and thus the player outside of below average supports. This makes it that much harder for the player to actually get invested in all these people who think Corrin is the best thing ever and who are fighting over them in a royal tug of war.

Secondly, the writing is based entirely on convenience. We've got everthing from major plot points like the curse and the throne which we're just supposed to accept are there without ever going into detail as to why, to things like Leo's book being able to teleport Corrin and their ragtag bunch of misfits to Notre Sagesse and back to Nohr. There's never any agency in the story since things just happen around Corrin; they're almost always on the defensive and react to their surroundings instead of strategically planning out their next move which makes it feel like they're on a straight line to the finish.

Thirdly, all the action is broken up by My Castle, which is yet another thing we're just supposed to accept without going into why it's there in the first place. We go from Elise's sacrifice in the heart of Nohr to chilling out with people in alternate dimension, bathing, rubbing cheeks, buying items and gathering rice to feed our dead sister fish maid. Constantly getting pulled out of the action like that ruins the pacing completely - the same thing happened in Awakening after Emmeryn's sacrifice in which the player could go recruit Donnel or whatever they wanted, though I'd say that isn't nearly as bad.

When the writing is improbable, impersonal and without any sense of pacing, it's hard to get invested in what's going on.

[Delfino]

I'm not usually very critical about video game stories... I primarily play for the gameplay and tend to just take the story as it is. However, there are so many plotholes, contrived plot devices and moments that made me think "Why the hell would they do that?!" in Fates' story that it's hard not to be offended.

Something about the game that's really come to bug me is the fact that it feels like 90% of the support conversations were written to be comic relief. It's like they're telling you not to take the characters that seriously... in a game that turns around and takes its plot very seriously, throwing in heavy-handed drama scenes. A game in which we're supposed to be stressing about our characters dying. It's fine to have comic relief characters, I adore all the shenanigans from Arthur, Odin, and Niles, but it just seems ridiculous to be constantly fishing for lulz in a game like this. We're in a war, and half my army consists of clowns that keep spouting cheesy one-liners.

It also often feels like the people who wrote the plot and the people who wrote the support conversations were two entirely different groups who were given descriptions of what the characters were like and didn't have any communication with each other whatsoever. Xander's case is probably the biggest offense here, but there's also Corrin, who's supposed to be this pure-hearted, accepting person who believes in people... but she'll be cold to Keaton and Odin for being oddballs.

I can play Fates for days on end since the gameplay is so good, but there are a lot of things involving the writing that bug me for sure.

[Tolvir]

Honestly, I think the problem is the hype.No, I don't have high expectations of the story. No, I don't really care about how sympathetic Character A is. What I care about is whether or not the game has the strategic elements and randomness that I've come to know and love, and the answer is YES. However, there was a LOT of hype early-on, and when the game released, I think the ensuing "but what about hype" killed it for people. I didn't expect the second coming of sliced bread, hence why I just shrugged at the elements I could skip (THE STORY, bad models), and enjoyed what I wanted (the actual gameplay).

I would have to disagree, at least for myself. While I had a bit of hype for the game, my expectations were low in terms of story. It was Fire Emblem after all, they aren't known for their great writing. The game itself is enjoyable and fun, like I said in my post. My point was that it feels very disconnected, at least for me, when compared to previous entries. If I put all of the Fire Emblem games side to side in order, Fates almost feels like a spin off or seperate series with the same name. Even through all the improvements in gameplay it lost something, at least for me, that made it Fire Emblem outside of just a srpg. Admittedly part of it is nostalgia for me.

[NickV]

Gameplaywise Fates is the best by far and feels most balanced. However, I do agree that storywise this game is lacking. Yes we get even more content than all previous Fire Emblems, but I never felt connected to any character. I feel like they don't go as in depth as the creators did with the other games and it is showing. The stories go one direction and that is that, but I think that has to do with how Fates is presented; 3 seperate storylines that together form one big story. That's why they are so linear. The amount of map hazards also form a problem to me; I like the basics of the game more than added things like wind carrying over units or lava walls changing constantly. They limit more than they add to the gameplay.

What I'm also missing compared to Awakening is running around the world map. Somehow I feel it is a must to Fire Emblem, but probably because Sacred Stones and Awakening are my most played FE games and both had this. DLC is also lacking, imo.

And last but definitely not least important: the difficulty is very low. Lunatic isn't that big and I really miss Lunatic+ from Awakening. That was the sheet

Edited January 9, 2017 by NickV

[SalShich10N]

Yet I kept my expectations down when it came to Fates' story, and my reaction is extremely muted in comparison. Furthermore, it's a pretty small subgroup that has something to say about Fates' story - apparently, it isn't worth posting about otherwise. Why is that?

Muted. You didn't voice your discontent, yet you imply you still were discontent. Much like yourself many people didn't felt the need to voice their discontent and some others either lacked had a place to voice their opinion, or didn't felt their opinion was relevant. Regardless, fact remains that there is no "Fates had a good story" opinion out there outside of possible paid reviews (which rated Conquest worse than Revelations and Birthright for being harder). Positive ones among fans range from "It wasn't that bad" to "I don't mind".

There is also the new larger, more casual playerbase that outright didn't payed attention to the story, just read lines of text and didn't digest what was going on and was instead too busy trying to get in the pants of their 2D character of choice. Do you think someone who plays like this https://u.nya.is/pwrkrm.webm will be invested in the story? Sadly in order to form a critical about something you need to care about it in the first place. Many just don't care when it comes to the story.

[Slyfox]

I just played Awakening again for the first time since buying Fates (I think). I continued a playthrough that I didn't finish, which I had previously left in the Valm filler arc (specifically, Chapter 19), and was instantly struck at how much better the characters and writing were than in Fates. And the Awakening characters aren't even that great in the first place.

Nostalgia and hype may play a part in the disappointment, yet they remain only a small part. Remember, most people still love Fates as a game. So I'm sure when the majority of criticism is thrown at one specific element of the game, it's actually based on solid reasoning. Contrast this to the fan reception of Dark Souls 2, where it's disliked by many diehard Dark Souls fans, and yet I have barely seen those fans give clear reasons and well-thought explanations.

So yeah, the bar for story in Awakening wasn't high, as someone else here mentioned, so it's mind-boggling that Intelligent Systems, in their effort to make a better story, actually came up with something worse. And it's especially noticeable since they improved the gameplay by leaps and bounds, leaving the weaker elements exposed.

[eclipse]

Muted. You didn't voice your discontent, yet you imply you still were discontent. Much like yourself many people didn't felt the need to voice their discontent and some others either lacked had a place to voice their opinion, or didn't felt their opinion was relevant. Regardless, fact remains that there is no "Fates had a good story" opinion out there outside of possible paid reviews (which rated Conquest worse than Revelations and Birthright for being harder). Positive ones among fans range from "It wasn't that bad" to "I don't mind".

There is also the new larger, more casual playerbase that outright didn't payed attention to the story, just read lines of text and didn't digest what was going on and was instead too busy trying to get in the pants of their 2D character of choice. Do you think someone who plays like this https://u.nya.is/pwrkrm.webm will be invested in the story? Sadly in order to form a critical about something you need to care about it in the first place. Many just don't care when it comes to the story.

About as discontent as finding out that the last batch of crackers I bought was cracked. I shrugged and ate them anyway. Likewise, the story of Fates just made me shrug and reach for the Start button. Fire Emblem is not a game I play for story - that's what the Falcom games are for. Perhaps that's why I don't see the point in griping over the story - to me, it's not an integral part of Fire Emblem.

Also, is there anything wrong with the casual playerbase that doesn't pay attention to the story?

[SalShich10N]

Also, is there anything wrong with the casual playerbase that doesn't pay attention to the story?

You argued that the vocal discontent is small in comparison to a larger playerbase, and I believe that's a result of the playerbase being diluted with people with little genuine interest in the series.

[eclipse]

You argued that the vocal discontent is small in comparison to a larger playerbase, and I believe that's a result of the playerbase being diluted with people with little genuine interest in the series.

The three reasons I can think of are:

- Not caring enough to complain, for a variety of reasons

- Some people might LIKE the story

- Not seeing the point in complaining

While I can't speak for the second group, I think the majority's in the first group. I'm in the third group - whining about Fates' story online isn't going to make it/myself better, so I'll state my opinion and find things that make me a better person instead. Complaining has always been to my detriment, and I don't believe in shooting myself in the foot.

[The Geek]

I honestly feel that both Fates and Awakening have a bit of a disconnected feel from the rest of the series, and I honestly can't see myself going back to Awakening for anything other than rereading support conversations.

I can vouch for the "don't care too much about video game stories" crowd as I'm one of them. All the way back when it was popular to hate on Awakening's story and supports I went back and replayed some of the older games and I came to one conclusion: the story and supports in the older games honestly aren't all that much better, so really story was never something Fire Emblem really had going for it.

What Fire Emblem is, first and foremost, is a video game. And what is most important for a video game is that it plays well and is enjoyable and I think Fates is this in spades (with maybe the exception of late game Revelation). Birthright is a more finely tuned Awakening, and Conquest features some of the best gameplay in the entire series, which is a claim that not even its biggest detractors on this site deny.

[SalShich10N]

The three reasons I can think of are:

- Not caring enough to complain, for a variety of reasons

- Some people might LIKE the story

- Not seeing the point in complaining

While I can't speak for the second group, I think the majority's in the first group. I'm in the third group - whining about Fates' story online isn't going to make it/myself better, so I'll state my opinion and find things that make me a better person instead. Complaining has always been to my detriment, and I don't believe in shooting myself in the foot.

My friend, "a chicken won't feed a chick that doesn't peep". If an opinion is not voiced then it will never be heard, so it might as well not even exist. I believe feedback will definitely reach in some way.

To your "detriment"? That sounds so aggressive, there should be nothing wrong in a good bitch every now and then. It's whole purpose of catharsis after all, or at least that's how I see it. I doubt you dislike it too much, after all here you are still at it.

I'd like to hear people from your second group, honestly. I'd like to believe that people who found several positives in the plot and are willing to point them exist, it'd liven the mood. But even yourself who argue against complaining can't even bring yourself to like the plot.

[NekoKnight]

The people who like Fates' story are afraid to come out because Thane is lurking in the tall grass, waiting to pounce.

[Thane]

The people who like Fates' story are afraid to come out because Thane is lurking in the tall grass, waiting to pounce.

Dammit man, you're giving away my position here! I wanted to come in like:

[Ebony]

I don't have much to add that others haven't already said, but I guess if I can throw something in: I find myself more readily wanting to replay Awakening then Fates. If I had to hazard a guess, a thing that helps it is that Awakening has a feeling of... heart?

I mean, yeah it has its anime tropes and waifus, but it was also the last game in the series. So as much as it has its dumb points, the game as a whole feels like a celebration of the series (which I guess it is.) I guess that's what keeps me coming back. Fates, meanwhile feels... calculated? Or "artificial" I guess.

(Hoping this makes at least some slight sense.)

[Thane]

I don't have much to add that others haven't already said, but I guess if I can throw something in: I find myself more readily wanting to replay Awakening then Fates. If I had to hazard a guess, a thing that helps it is that Awakening has a feeling of... heart?

I mean, yeah it has its anime tropes and waifus, but it was also the last game in the series. So as much as it has its dumb points, the game as a whole feels like a celebration of the series (which I guess it is.) I guess that's what keeps me coming back. Fates, meanwhile feels... calculated? Or "artificial" I guess.

(Hoping this makes at least some slight sense.)

Nah, it makes sense. I feel the same, though I don't bring it up often outside of how the game was sold and marketed because there's no tangible evidence that their heart wasn't in it.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Thane

[The DanMan]

Nah, it makes sense. I feel the same, though I don't bring it up often outside of how the game was sold and marketed because there's no tangible evidence that their heart wasn't in it.

I have an easy explanation: first-game bias.

Seriously, I wouldn't have enjoyed Shadow Dragon half as much as I did if it wasn't my first real introduction to the series. It has a certain "feel" to it that pretty much always keeps it fun for me. In general, it seems like a LOT of people's favorite FE game is their first; I think that says a lot.

[Thane]

I have an easy explanation: first-game bias.

Seriously, I wouldn't have enjoyed Shadow Dragon half as much as I did if it wasn't my first real introduction to the series. It has a certain "feel" to it that pretty much always keeps it fun for me. In general, it seems like a LOT of people's favorite FE game is their first; I think that says a lot.

You won't hear me denying that.

However, that doesn't explain the lack of personal investment I feel in Fates. I think Radiant Dawn has some of the best character interactions in the entire series (alongside Future Past, admittedly) in spite of having a very flawed narrative; I could feel like the developers were trying to tell a great story and were trying hard to make the game the best that it could be. I feel nothing of the sort from Fates, but instead wonder just how much executive meddling happened behind the scenes in order to make sure people bought the maximum number of copies.

These are vague feelings which I can't back up with any solid proof, so I don't think they belong in a proper debate about the quality of Fates' writing, naturally, but I can say that just because Awakening was my first Fire Emblem game doesn't mean I can't get a special feeling from earlier entries which I think Fates lacks.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Thane

[shadowofchaos]

My friend, "a chicken won't feed a chick that doesn't peep". If an opinion is not voiced then it will never be heard, so it might as well not even exist. I believe feedback will definitely reach in some way.

To your "detriment"? That sounds so aggressive, there should be nothing wrong in a good bitch every now and then. It's whole purpose of catharsis after all, or at least that's how I see it. I doubt you dislike it too much, after all here you are still at it.

I'd like to hear people from your second group, honestly. I'd like to believe that people who found several positives in the plot and are willing to point them exist, it'd liven the mood. But even yourself who argue against complaining can't even bring yourself to like the plot.

*waves*

Hi.

I like the story.

It has terrible execution, but I genuinely like it. I like their attempt.

I also played the JP version.

I like their attempt to create conflict within the character you make despite the waifu culture screwing with plot in the form of babyrealms and non-blood related "we are connected by blood" siblings.

The fact that Mikoto is hard to relate to when you find out she's your mother and yet you as the player cannot believe her just like that... I'd say they did that right despite all the failures of self-insert fanfiction the game is.

I like Byakuya Oukoku (Birthright) because of how simple it is, especially in Japanese. It feels like it's meant to be experienced in Japanese, rather than the traditional Fire Emblem rooted in medieval Europe.

I like that even though they failed horribly in world building, they at least had places like Izumo and Fuuma (Mokushu). The latter of which has a Japanese name of significance that the localization changed that is a reference to Fuuma Kotarou.

So yes, there are positives in the story. But it's not going to be to your standards.

It's a given gameplay is wonderful, but you don't really care about that point.

Edited January 10, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Nym]

I agree with this.

Fates basically tried to fix the problems that Awakening had: no objectives on the maps, broken pair up mechanic, reclass, etc

But by doing so, they also broke other aspects: story, the omnipresence of the avatar, too much fanservice (debatable), children, etc

Look, I'm a big fan of Awakening since it's my first FE but I would be a fool and a liar if I would tell you that Awakening had no flaws, the story was not perfect at all but I'm a big fan or time travel so the little story of the doomed future interested me.

Now, as for the My Castle, this could have worked if we didn't get any ressources or bonus weapons by battling or visiting a castle.

For the durability, I don't really know to be honest, forging a weapon seems to be worth every single penny since they don't break anymore (I mean, what is the point of forging a silver weapon if you end broking it after 15 battle?). Especially since if we ever get another game with the same of money as Conquest, forging multiples weapons will kinda be a waste of money with durability.

[Slyfox]

I don't have much to add that others haven't already said, but I guess if I can throw something in: I find myself more readily wanting to replay Awakening then Fates. If I had to hazard a guess, a thing that helps it is that Awakening has a feeling of... heart?

I mean, yeah it has its anime tropes and waifus, but it was also the last game in the series. So as much as it has its dumb points, the game as a whole feels like a celebration of the series (which I guess it is.) I guess that's what keeps me coming back. Fates, meanwhile feels... calculated? Or "artificial" I guess.

(Hoping this makes at least some slight sense.)

I agree with you 1000%.

[SalShich10N]

It's a given gameplay is wonderful, but you don't really care about that point.

Of course I do, I enjoy gameplay greatly, but this thread is about it's ~problem~ which is mostly the Story. I believe Conquest to be one of the better games in the series in terms of gameplay, actually, up there with Thracia.

But if you want me to talk about problems in gameplay, one definitely has to be the unit balance. Sometimes it feels like they did their absolute best to make everyone in the same class or role as another Royal completely and utterly inferior if not better in a different role. For instance in Birthright Hinata and Hana are completely worse than Ryoma who doesn't even arrive late into the story. You get him as soon as 1/3rd into the game. Subaki and Setsuna are totally inferior to Hinoka and Takumi respectively, Azama is good but you have to make him something other than a priest. In conquest Nyx's bases and growths are pretty much the same as Elise's but worse, Beruka joins with Camilla and only beats her in defense if trained, Leo is essentially Odin if leveled and promoted into a Dark Knight but with a special tome and arrives pretty early. While Xander is outright better than Silas.

Another problem the game has comes from the debuff system it comes with no real way to mitigate the penalties other than waiting or using a DLC class skill. This is specially apparent in the later levels of Lunatic. Not only that, it makes Silver Weapons pretty much worse than a forged Steel, specially for tanking enemy attacks, however I do get that Silver debuffs can be worked around. We're in a dire need of a "dekunda"-like staff.

Weapon balance is all over the place too, with Tomes (and mages as well) getting shafted hard with low might values and low and Scrolls being downright better (the "steel" scroll raises speed). Shurikens get so many advantages, including a permanent boost to speed while Daggers get nothing. On top of being a range 1-2 physical weapon with no penalties they also debuff and ninjas deal damage even if they don't kill as well. Clubs are downright one of the worst types of weapons in the series since they have mt comparable to swords but far less hit rate. Killing weapons got shafted hard too since now they lack both power and the necessary natural crit rate to make it better than just using Irons.

While weapon durability does encourage players to use different weapons without worry about them breaking, players now avoid using them for their harsh penalties.

[Baldrick]

On the subject of the gameplay, I feel like it can get overly complex. With the way pair-up and dual attacks work, and the abundance of aura and conditional skills, every move has more implications and more ways to tweak it. When I played Lunatic Conquest, I took a long time with my turns because there was so much to consider and keep track of. So my mistakes were more costly, and more numerous, and as a result it was the first game in the series where I began to dread failure, and the tension became suffocating rather than exhilirating to me.

I guess the point of that ramble was that like it's an oversimplication to say Conquest's plot is completely, objectively bad, it's an oversimplication to say the gameplay is completely, objectively good.