What does echoes NEED to do to not end up as a shadow dragon 2.0?

[UNLEASH IT]

8 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

And better map design, because even FE1 wasn't as bad as FE2's. The one they showed in the trailer for Alm isn't a bad one, but I'm really hoping they don't just copy the big square maps with tile spam and nothing interesting about them... Those are the big three changes and then anything else will be taken as is, IMO.

Huh. Any reason why? I do hope they do stay traditional with FE2 but at the same time I don't think supports could do any harm considering the almost nonexistent characterisation.

It's less stuff for people to bitch about. 

[maybe]

4 minutes ago, eclipse said:

So the fandom will stop talking about stupid things like "I don't like this character because I didn't read every support and try to string together what happened", which is a lot more prevalent than I care to admit.  This happened in Awakening, and it got worse with Fates.

thing is, people are going to complain way more if there are no supports at all

so I feel like not having supports will just lead to more unncessary negativity

not that i'm saying there have to be supports though, I'd be fine with there not being any

[Tryhard]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel as though people would bitch far more if supports weren't included lol

There's a reason the lack of them got FE10 and FE11 reamed over it.

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, unique said:

thing is, people are going to complain way more if there are no supports at all

so I feel like not having supports will just lead to more unncessary negativity

not that i'm saying there have to be supports though, I'd be fine with there not being any

 

2 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

Maybe it's just me, but I feel as though people would bitch far more if supports weren't included lol

There's a reason the lack of them got FE10 and FE11 reamed over it.

It'll be one unified complaint, instead of a goddamn character war.  And I am perfectly okay with that, since I have very little faith in people, when it comes to analyzing and appreciating dialogue.

Edited January 22, 2017 by eclipse

[Azz]

While I would I like supports, I do agree with eclipse's sentiments. However, people are gonna bitch no matter what and I don't think IS wants to alienate fans, cause in my opinion, this game is definitely gonna alienate some people so  think adding supports would be a good decision since it would make some people less angry, no matter how bad or good they may be.

[UNLEASH IT]

4 minutes ago, eclipse said:

It'll be one unified complaint, instead of a goddamn character war.  And I am perfectly okay with that, since I have very little faith in people, when it comes to analyzing and appreciating dialogue.

>Implying we won't be at each other's throats arguing about which characters is the best from a gameplay and design perspective.

You underestimate our hatred.

[Azz]

1 minute ago, UNLEASH IT said:

>Implying we won't be at each other's throats arguing about which characters is the best from a gameplay and design perspective.

You underestimate our hatred.

Also this.

[eclipse]

6 minutes ago, UNLEASH IT said:

>Implying we won't be at each other's throats arguing about which characters is the best from a gameplay and design perspective.

You underestimate our hatred.

I have less issues with this, since there's numbers to back it up.  Besides, supports are optional, gameplay is not.

[Kirie]

Shadow Dragon is probably my least favourite FE, but that doesn't mean I think it's a bad game. FE is still my favourite series and I appreciate SD a lot (and much more so than I did back when it first came out); it's one of my two go-to games for a quick and fun replay as it's pretty simple to jump in to but has some surprising depth in its gameplay.

I think one of the main reasons that I like it now more than I did back then was because I have a better feel of and admiration for the characters. If you just come into SD blind with no knowledge of the story and characters but a background in GBA and later FE games, there's not really a whole lot there characterization-wise. A handful of characters get some nice story and growth, but there are also a handful of characters that literally never say anything unless they die and they get a death line, and almost everyone else falls into a hazy grey area where they'll say a bit and then just fall into the army. It wasn't really until later, doing some research online, seeing the characters in Cipher, playing FE12, that I began to care about the characters and their stories much more, and it makes the game a lot more fun and interesting to me.

I guess what that whole blob of text is trying to get it is that my own personal answer to the question in the title is to give the characters more characterization. Supports or base conversations would be the best way to do this, but the cut scenes and expanded story that have already been hinted it seem like they'll do a good job to help as well. Even expanding more dialogue in the game would be a huge boost in the right direction. Gaiden's gameplay is already pretty unique and fun and I don't really think there's much than needs to be changed there outside of the expected modernization, but something that makes the characters shine would be wonderful. Just let's please leave out the marriage and shit please.

[Dinar87]

19 minutes ago, eclipse said:

AHEM!  SOME of us like all the "flaws" you pointed out.  In other words, if you're going to complain about a game, complete with putting it down in your topic title, please check to see whether or not the most active mod on the site has it listed as her favorite.  Or, just get it through your head that everyone has different tastes, and someone out there will like things that are different than you, and that IT IS OKAY.

As for the topic title, it's already on track to be something good.  Animated cutscenes tell me that they're giving a flip about the story.  Don't really care about supports, since I think that's the thing that should be cut.

I don't a problem with people liking things I don't like (for example shadow dragon). I'm sorry if I implied this or anything. I just want echoes to not be 100% faithful to the original game and I recognize that's just my opinion.
 

[escotanner]

They need to add supports. Personally, as long as they add supports I'm happy.

[Thane]

Thankfully we know the UI is updated, so that's a huge relief. Aside from that, as everyone has already said, characterization, story and map updates are vital. The amount of maps in Gaiden where you for no real reason start with your party split up or have to walk through way too many forest or desert tiles just to reach the enemy is very off-putting.

Also, I hope they add some kind of limit to the summons. I don't know what I would've done without Dear or however you transcribe that name. Without it it's just such a time sink.

[Slumber]

Just eschew the archaic game design choices. I imagine they'll know what to update and what not to, since IS seemed to understand what to improve from SD in NM, and what was fine to stay true to.

A few of SD's big flaws, we already know likely won't be present in Echoes. You probably won't have to deliberately get units killed to play side chapters, and the butt-ugly portrait art probably won't be there.

I'm amazed that people seem to think Axes have no place, though. It's definitely something they should add, regardless of whether the weapon triangle is in the game or not. Having axe units and axes adds variety to the game that was sorely missing in the original. I hate to be "that guy", but if you want to play a game that's 100% faithful to Gaiden, just go play Gaiden. I don't see the point in just straight up remaking a 25 year old game with nothing but a new coat of paint if you're not going to use any of the advancements the series has had to fix complaints a lot of people had about the original. They tried that with Shadow Dragon, and Shadow Dragon is a VERY divisive game(As you can see in this thread), and even Shadow Dragon had a few unique ideas and updates here and there.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Slumber

[Radiant head]

it needs to be developed after the success of awakening and fates.  so...i think we should be fine now. 

[ChibiToastExplosion]

No supports also means you can make your own head cannons... but people just aren't that creative!

Then they say a strategy game sucks because they lack imagination.

[HK Motendra]

Bringing back dismount would be cool. I wonder why it never went past FE3

[Azz]

5 minutes ago, Motendra said:

Bringing back dismount would be cool. I wonder why it never went past FE3

Well actually dismounting was in FE4 (Well only Seliph could do it) and FE5, but it was also intended to be in SD based on data found in the ROM.

As for why it never returned, I guess they just never found a use for it but also it was kind of annoying having to keep two weapon ranks in check and having to reduce movement. But I wouldn't mind seeing its return either, especially considering Gaiden didn't have weapon ranks (And I don't think they will in Echoes). 

[HK Motendra]

2 hours ago, Azz said:

Well actually dismounting was in FE4 (Well only Seliph could do it) and FE5, but it was also intended to be in SD based on data found in the ROM.

As for why it never returned, I guess they just never found a use for it but also it was kind of annoying having to keep two weapon ranks in check and having to reduce movement. But I wouldn't mind seeing its return either, especially considering Gaiden didn't have weapon ranks (And I don't think they will in Echoes). 

Wait what now? Even if its the same weapon?

[Slyfox]

7 hours ago, eclipse said:

So the fandom will stop talking about stupid things like "I don't like this character because I didn't read every support and try to string together what happened", which is a lot more prevalent than I care to admit.  This happened in Awakening, and it got worse with Fates.

While I agree with you about the fandom part, I don't see how people who judge books by their cover should have any influence on whether you like supports or not. I can understand the influence those fans can have, it affects me to a certain extent, but I think a game's content should be judged on it's merits alone. We aren't even talking about localization or business practices. You can easily ignore someone who is only interested in the tip of the iceberg, regarding certain characters.

Edit: The vocal fans seems to dislike or hate Dark Souls 2, which happens to be my favorite Souls game. In fact, all the complaints made me seriously look at the game, and I actually like Dark Souls 2 even more than the first time I've played it. I'm still quite annoyed at the fans for not giving anything I consider solid reasoning, but I love the game to pieces regardless.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Slyfox

[Iridium]

7 hours ago, Motendra said:

Along with this, do keep in mind that myrmidons weren't a thing until maybe FE4 (apparently, Gaiden had "swordfighters" but idk if that equates). While there were only two in FE11 (w/out reclassing into it) adding a class shouldn't be too much of a worry.

Gaiden's swordfighters are basically Heroes that function like Swordmasters. All things considered, they're basically Myrmidons as ever.

As the class that promotes from Mercenary and into Dread Fighter, it makes sense in context.

[Florete]

What made Shadow Dragon less good is that it felt like an old game with a coat of paint; I bought it on day one, yet still felt like the game I was playing was at least ten years old. A good remake will keep the spirit and general feel of the original while updating it to make it feel like it fits today. That doesn't mean it needs to do everything the same as the recent FE games, but it needs to incorporate enough new elements to make it feel like it's actually a new game.

[geozeldadude]

one question i had for people who have played the original is if the length of the original seems like it should stay the same or if it should be expanded with gaiden chapters (or even better, a brand new second part like mystery of the emblem!). i haven't finished the game yet and the game isn't divided into single map chapters, so it's hard for me to get a feel for if the game is as long as the other games which usually have something like 24+ chapters.

[Hardin]

Gaidens could be added, but the ending doesn't really lend itself to a Book 2 kind of scenario. 

[Ertrick36]

3 hours ago, Slyfox said:

While I agree with you about the fandom part, I don't see how people who judge books by their cover should have any influence on whether you like supports or not. I can understand the influence those fans can have, it affects me to a certain extent, but I think a game's content should be judged on it's merits alone. We aren't even talking about localization or business practices. You can easily ignore someone who is only interested in the tip of the iceberg, regarding certain characters.

Edit: The vocal fans seems to dislike or hate Dark Souls 2, which happens to be my favorite Souls game. In fact, all the complaints made me seriously look at the game, and I actually like Dark Souls 2 even more than the first time I've played it. I'm still quite annoyed at the fans for not giving anything I consider solid reasoning, but I love the game to pieces regardless.

I mean, I can understand the concern of how the opinions might negatively impact the direction of the series or mislead the writers into thinking that everyone hates their works.  And I too get tired of people soap-boxing their ill-conceived opinions.  Or maybe it's more about the fact that people pay less attention to gameplay and more to just how bad the C-B supports between this pair of characters are; I get that, too.

But I still disagree with the sentiment that an entire gameplay and story element should be removed because some people criticize characters based on incomplete evidence they've accrued from some supports.  I think it's a very dramatic response to a problem that people are blowing up way too much.  And I think that by removing it, you're removing a key story and gameplay element that lends itself very well to FE's whole "camaraderie, even with unwitting enemies" narrative.  Even if you replaced it with base conversations or character side stories, it just won't have the same effect unless you integrate it with the gameplay.

What I'm getting at is that you get these characters, you have them fight alongside one another, and they form bonds.  In some cases, they literally save each other's lives.  You directly affect that, and thus you have an actual impact on how they bond.  In many cases, they aren't forming bonds on their own in the story; you are choosing who becomes friends with who.  In other circumstances, you're strengthening their bonds with pre-existing friends or gaining the trust of former enemies.  And in any case as a result, they're more willing and able to help their friends fight, or at least inspire their friends to fight harder.  It is the direct results of your indirect bonds to these characters.

This all being said, I'd like to iterate that I wouldn't be upset if they took out supports in Shadows of Valentia.  I know Gaiden didn't originally have supports, so it's not necessarily like anything is lost if this game in particular doesn't have supports.  Though for reasons stated, I personally think it can only help.  But I won't go in expecting it, either.

[May]

I'd be very happy if supports are limited. Like supports only happen to characters that have some kind of relation to each other. It makes their story more fleshed out rather than being thinned out.