Fire Emblem and Undead

[Tolvir]

Fire Emblem Awakening had dragons as the bad guy. Fates had dragons, original Fire Emblem had dragons, Gaiden has them, it is the typical thing for Fire Emblem. We have also had a few human enemies, whether smaller minor villains like Walhart or major villains like Ashnard. We have even had a demon at one point. One villain that has not been significantly featured, but was touched on lightly in Awakening and Gaiden, is the Undead.

Now the topic of Undead and Necromancy for bad guys is a broad one. It can be anything from the typical zombies like Walking Dead, the classic Vampires like Dracula, or even the more mystical undead like Warcraft's Lich King. Some of the most famous stories of the fantasy genre come from the use of Undead, like one of the most memorable D&D box sets Ravenloft. Or one of the greatest tragic villains in gaming history with Arthas and his fall to becoming the Lich King. While I don't see a zombie apocalypse working for Fire Emblem, I can see vampires and mystical undead working for Fire Emblem. It could open huge possibilities in enemy types and even villains. You can have the tragic fall from grace like Arthas, or you can go with the more typical Fire Emblem theme of a dark evil rising. Some of the most famous stories of the fantasy genre come from the use of Undead, like one of the most memorable D&D box sets Ravenloft. Or one of the most intimidating bad guys in fantasy books with Lord Soth.

Just from a perspective of types of undead you have a huge selection. Ghouls, Zombies, Ghasts, Banshees, Liches, Vampires, Flesh Golems, Skeletons, Death Knights, Draugr, Wights, Revenants, Mummies, and the list goes on and on and on. They also have a large potential for interesting mechanics. Everything from incorporeal enemies, disease/poison based damage effects, necromancy, enemies rising back from the dead. Even the idea of losing one of your own units to undeath, and having to fight them. One idea RedRob brought up in a previous discussion was even the idea of the end boss being a lord of the undead or a Vampire, that brings back all previous characters that died and having them on the field as part of the end boss fight.

Either way, Undead have a lot of potential to make interesting and fun villains for Fire Emblem. So what are your ideas? Would you like to see Undead used in the future as a main villain?

Edited January 25, 2017 by Tolvir

[Dayni]

...Clearly you forgot Sacred Stones and the sheer variety of undead units, even if the biggest bad is not undead (I'd also argue that demons in and of themselves aren't exactly among the living either, but not the point).

However, the idea of including mythical undead figures like banshees (much as that one doesn't fit for combat: banshees specifically let someone know they were going to die soon. They acted as an omen) or liches isn't a bad one. It's also a good question to ask how the undead are involved in said title (like the main character realising that their friend, sibilng, etc. is now an undead enemy attempting to stop them), as that would matter if the villain uses such things.

[Meanlucario]

Gaiden has plenty of undead, most appeared in Sacred Stones, and Echoes is likely to have them as well.

[RedRob]

So I came up with more details for undead enemies.

Vampires will convert your units to their side, but only if they deal a killing blow to them, for balance reasons.

Ghosts, can temporarily posses your units, with it being a weapon whose durability goes down each turn, so when "it" breaks, the unit is released. Though, you still have to be weary of the unit dying before they're released.

And for the Lich boss, I think there should be events or maps where you have to sacrifice units, like two groups of them are under attack, but you can only go rescue one group, or to progress further in the map, you have to have a unit activate a switch that will get rid of an obstacle, but kill them in the process. This is so the Lich won't be fought by itself.

Edited January 25, 2017 by RedRob

[NekoKnight]

Fire Emblem game in Dark Souls setting when?

Sacred Stones has skeletons, zombies and zombie dragons. Blazing Sword has sorta-undead in the morphs you fight at the end of the game. Fates also had dead people revived to fight their former friends and family.

I think Fire Emblem is at its strongest when the plots are centered on human conflict, so i don't think a undead apocalypse would be very compelling, but they can be featured. If dark magic becomes a thing again, I'd like Necromancer to be a playable class. They would automatically summon a copy of an enemy unit (allied to the player) if they landed the killing blow.

@RedRob It would be interesting if you could break possession of units by attacking them. It would give you reason to equip weapons that can't kill the enemy.

[Tolvir]

12 hours ago, RedRob said:

So I came up with more details for undead enemies.

Vampires will convert your units to their side, but only if they deal a killing blow to them, for balance reasons.

Ghosts, can temporarily posses your units, with it being a weapon whose durability goes down each turn, so when "it" breaks, the unit is released. Though, you still have to be weary of the unit dying before they're released.

And for the Lich boss, I think there should be events or maps where you have to sacrifice units, like two groups of them are under attack, but you can only go rescue one group, or to progress further in the map, you have to have a unit activate a switch that will get rid of an obstacle, but kill them in the process. This is so the Lich won't be fought by itself.

I like the Vampire idea, it goes along with the idea of Wights too since they do the same in D&D.

Ghost idea is definitely interesting, gives incentive to be cautious approaching certain enemies.

The Lich idea is interesting, but I think that would only work in a heavy story driven Fire Emblem. Choices like that are made in Mass Effect, like the choice between Ashley and Kaiden, but it works well there because you form an attachment to them and due to the way the story goes, it properly explains why that choice has to be made. Fire Emblem would need to do that in order for it to work, which is entirely possible. Not a bad idea though, would be kind of cool.

10 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Fire Emblem game in Dark Souls setting when?

Sacred Stones has skeletons, zombies and zombie dragons. Blazing Sword has sorta-undead in the morphs you fight at the end of the game. Fates also had dead people revived to fight their former friends and family.

I think Fire Emblem is at its strongest when the plots are centered on human conflict, so i don't think a undead apocalypse would be very compelling, but they can be featured. If dark magic becomes a thing again, I'd like Necromancer to be a playable class. They would automatically summon a copy of an enemy unit (allied to the player) if they landed the killing blow.

@RedRob It would be interesting if you could break possession of units by attacking them. It would give you reason to equip weapons that can't kill the enemy.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that it cant be done. Final Fantasy for instance has had a wide range of different bad guys, ranging from the typical human enemy, to even deities. It just depends on the writer to make it interesting enough. And that is where I think Undead can be the most interesting. They have such a wide range of story telling that you can have 3 different games use Undead as the enemy, and all three can be completely different. Again, just the difference between the Walking Dead and Warcraft III. 

Undead don't even need to be mindless and emotionless. Often times Vampires are shown to be more human like than mindless undead. There is a great tabletop game that shows the capability of Vampires alone called Vampire the Masquerade. There are a ton of different Vampire clans in the lore, and each with their own motivation and abilities. Campaigns in that can be anything from a small political power game, or a full scale war between clans. Lot of different ways it can go.

Doesn't have to be an apocalypse either. Undead, again, have a wide range. You can go small scale and large scale with them. Small scale would be a small kingdom having problems of undead popping up in areas, and small villages being wiped out or falling to plagues. As the adventure goes on, you start trying to figure out who is behind all of this, to figure out there is a small brood of Vampires causing the issue. The rest of the game would be about tracking them down and trying to end it before they can effect the whole kingdom. Large scale would be more along the lines of a Lich or a Death Knight rising and raising armies of the dead to accomplish whatever it is they want. Again, Undead have a wide range.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Tolvir

[Folt]

Honestly, I'd love to see a Lich (undead spellcaster) or a Death Knight-type (undead warrior) of Undead, though you should be under the illusion that they're living, breathing humans until the reveal.

In some ways, I think they'd be the monster version of the recurring "evil sorcerer" or "evil king" archetypes that Fire Emblem often use, have extremely powerful stats, and could be used as independent villains or high-ranking servants. Right now, I think that

Spoiler

Gooron

comes the closest to this kind of undead.

[NekoKnight]

5 hours ago, Folt said:

In some ways, I think they'd be the monster version of the recurring "evil sorcerer" or "evil king" archetypes that Fire Emblem often use, have extremely powerful stats, and could be used as independent villains or high-ranking servants. Right now, I think that

  Reveal hidden contents

Gooron

comes the closest to this kind of undead.

Sacred Stones has

Spoiler

Emperor Virgarde and Orson's wife who are reanimated corpses (the latter being a much less convincing corpse).

 

9 hours ago, Tolvir said:

Doesn't have to be an apocalypse either. Undead, again, have a wide range. You can go small scale and large scale with them. Small scale would be a small kingdom having problems of undead popping up in areas, and small villages being wiped out or falling to plagues. As the adventure goes on, you start trying to figure out who is behind all of this, to figure out there is a small brood of Vampires causing the issue. The rest of the game would be about tracking them down and trying to end it before they can effect the whole kingdom. Large scale would be more along the lines of a Lich or a Death Knight rising and raising armies of the dead to accomplish whatever it is they want. Again, Undead have a wide range.

True, I just wanted to point out that a straight apocalypse would be boring. Sacred Stones was interesting because of Lyon, not the Demon King. Your idea here actually sounds pretty similar to a Fire Emblem x Dark Souls crossover I was thinking about. The undead in Dark Souls are sentient (until their souls burn out) so I think an interesting a story would be the conflict between and within human societies where undead, sentient and otherwise, are on the rise. The key factor here is that sentient beings are driving the plot.