Birthright Tier List

[Interdimensional Observer]

While I know Birthright is easy and that few are interested in such, I saw this board lacked a BR tier list and so just felt like making one.

The difficulty is Classic Lunatic, no DLC. No egregious turtling or excessive babying. Not LTC, kind of efficiency I guess.

No giving Ryoma everything and just having him solo the game once he shows up, just like we wouldn’t permit the same of Seth in SS when tiering.

As much as I’d like to permit online battles or skirmishes solely for support grinding, I’m going to forbid it, as it is on the CQ tier list. 

Susano-o/Hachiman Incarnate:

Ryoma

Top:

Azura

Hinoka

Corrin

Scarlet

High:

Reina

Silas

Saizo

Kagero

Kaze

Mid:

C2 Jakob

Takumi

Azama

Sakura

C2 Felicia

Izana

Oboro

Low:

Rinkah

Subaki

Hinata

Shura

Orochi

Hayato

Bottom:

Hana

Yukimura

Kaden

Mozu

Setsuna

C16 Jakob

C16 Felicia

Edited February 24, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[BANRYU]

I'm a little baffled, because I thought Apothecary Azama was actually pretty good....? Especially so if you use him with the Raider Yumi during those early stages of weapon ranks...

For the most part it looks pretty good, though some I'm a bit baffled by some people being so low. Azama aside, Hana and Hinata have never been THAT terrible for me... and Ryoma's never really turned out that great for me personally either (maybe I'm guilty of benching him as a pseudo-Jeigan too much until other units have promoted too, but... shrug). I only ever hear about how good Ryoma is though so maybe I just keep getting RNG screwed.

Also I thought Hayato was better than THAT. My Hayato got hardcore RNG screwed by having only like... 4 points of Mag at level 15 or so, but my wife and a friend both had quite strong Hayatos....

Edited February 24, 2017 by BANRYU

[joshcja]

Azama and Hayato are probably the best non 1st Servant/Corin/Ryoma/Scarlet combat units yes. He does have Rinkah not in bottom tier? I guess that keeps this from being yet another shitty reddit meme list. Oboro and Takumi are way too high as always but meh.

Not that many units in BR really give a good god damn about the heart seal early on. Sakura/Corn/Jakob/Azama (You mostly just early promote him)/Hayato (post promotion)/kinda sorta Mozu?

Durability in BR is staggeringly high on the sparse handful of units you actually use. So much so that 53 atk zerkers are very much non-threatening. Oni Cheiftain really is just that strong.

Building supports for A+ seals is perfectly workable in CQ efficiency, much less BirthRout the fug are you smoking.

Edited February 24, 2017 by joshcja

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

Durability is great, but little can survive all the late-game 53 Attack + critical chance Berserkers, so the concept of durability loses meaning when they’re around.

i don't actually care about br efficiency but i just want to say that this is incorrect, oni chieftain bulk is insane

also, this is the campaign where you get ryoma, who kind of renders berserkers null if you are a boring enough person to use him

[Interdimensional Observer]

Maybe I'm overplaying the seal and support issue. A bunch of what I'm about to say is also found in my explanation doc. That was definitely a bad idea- I'm sorry.

Perhaps I'm overestimating the Berserker threat (and mixed magic-physical groups) and underestimating durability. And yeah, Ryoma I know laughs at them. Though I'll admit swords can be a little too accurate even for him. And mixed lance-axe/bow groups/Generals (which can pack both an axe and a lance) force Ryoma into WTD and thus potentially threateningly high hit rates, seeing how he can't swap between Rajinto and the Dual Katana during the enemy phase. He's died on me before, I understand, but he is still very much the best, if not perfect. 

Rinkah gets as high as she does mostly because she is the only natural Oni Savage and the +3 Str/Def bonuses (later 4) are great. Fiery Blood also mitigates her poor Strength somewhat (+4 attack if you lose even just 1 HP is significant) and she has Bolt Axe potential too for the enemy phase. A starting rut is her problem, outgrow it and throw her a Seraph Robe and she is far better than worse unit in the game. Hinata and Subaki are where they are based largely on their Defensive Stance partner potential as well.

Looking at his stats again, Azama might not be so bad. I mean I knew his growths were killer, but I underestimated his averages it seems; he could go up. I banned Raider weapons because only through online or chance you can get them. A tier list I feel is supposed to assume spartan conditions. Though of course the good thing about Fates is that it gives you a dozen optional ways to make things easier to varying extents if you feel it'd make the game more fun.

Hana is glass with good offense, but is stuck with range 1 sans a reclass; Reina and Kagero are also glass with offense, but have range 2 weapons at base, so they won't have to risk getting hit so much. I also thought she wasn't dodgy enough- Hagakure comes too late and the Sunrise Katana again requires VP, which means online, or random chance- so I could potentially never get one on a given playthrough.

Hayato comes underleveled and stuck with magic in a game not so friendly to it (I blame the move to include it in the weapon triangle). Though if you get him out of his starting rut he is better than Orochi. By the way, I like the idea of Oni Chieftain for him, but 13 Skill at 20/20 is bad even for one of the least useful stats (BS gives +7 Skill minimum if you don't mind losing a good bit of Magic).

Takumi, yeah he is the worst Hoshidan royal if you factor in Sakura's healing being more unique than his combat abilities, but he still has ease of use over his fellow yumi users (no seal, no level catchup), if less spectacular stats. Oboro's stats are balanced, and I think Spear Fighter is a good class, but thats it I'll admit. Hinoka might like that Heart Seal by the way, no bow weakness plus better stats while maintaining her weapon rank, but flight and more move has its merits- it's up in the air.

[joshcja]

Magic is actually quite good in fates. Most of the users just have some sort of crippling drawback to discourage Robin strats.

Rinkah being not bottom means you're probably not a complete idiot.

Assuming purist gameplay is a good choice.

[guedesbrawl]

I'm not too sure rinkah should get that high, given that she joins quite early but only really starts pulling her weight offensively after her favorite weapons start showing up (Hammer in c12, then Bolt/killer axe and pike-ruin a chapter later. Horse spirit probably after Leo). She is a rather good unit imo, but i found that she needs a little help on that HP to keep up with the pressure later on if you are not willing on pair-up boosting her DEF or sticking with horse spirit unnecessarily, which should detract from her a bit. And she's hit pretty hard by the waves of mixed physical/magic attacks later in BR due to her crap resistance.

I don't play for efficiency, but i have a bit of a trouble seeing Oboro more valuable than either of the ninja bros (especially Kaze once you built Corrin support and are free to Kaze+Rinkah it out), especially given her very limited 1-2 range before an A+/S reclass). I'd say Tacomeat has a bit of a problem with EP combat, but his contributions to any playthrought early on with that incredible weapon MT are hard to contest, so i dunno.

[astrophys]

Corrin should be top and Hoshido Noble isn't a strong reason against this as he should never be hitting that class in the first place.

 

Look, you just take your Mage talent, then you take the Early Heart Seal and go Dark Mage -> Dark Knight.   You get 1-2 range magic (notable Horse Spirit) and Dark Knight has superior defensive bases to Hohsido Noble and 8 move.  

[Dark Holy Elf]

Scarlet seems surprisingly low to me. She has higher base def than many Hoshidans ever reach, gives str/def pairup to a party which likely doesn't have much, can use the Guard Naginata to tank further if needed, 8 move flight blah blah blah.

I'd probably bump Silas and Oboro down a tier. In particular, Oboro shouldn't be above Hinoka; they two are easily comparable and Hinoka comes out ahead in pretty much every way (Rallying Cry > Nohr Enmity, Sky Knight > Apothecary, higher base spd/res > Oboro not actually winning any base stats by more than 1 point despite being 2 levels higher).

In their place I'd move up Corrin and probably Scarlet/Reina, since they join powerful/promoted and fly, and have other advantages besides.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Made a round of changes. Oboro got obliterated to bottom of Mid because she is nothing special after all. Scarlet skyrocketed to bottom of Top. Silas dropped from Top to High because GK Scarlet is comparable enough. Rinkah fell to top of Low because the level of investment needed for her offense to work might be a tad excessive for Mid. Oboro is above her because she needs less investment I guess, and an enemy phase of slapping foes with Seal Defense and later Seal Speed too might not be much inferior to Bolt Axe attacking (unless it can be proven Rinkah is killing and not simply weakening).

Takumi dropped to Mid and Azama rose to Mid. Basically it comes down to the value of early-game (Takumi) vs. late-game (Azama). Takumi has the Fujin Yumi for an early power lead, until Azama hits B rank for a Silver Yumi. Lifetime Apo-Mechanist Azama has basically the same Speed and Strength as Sniper Takumi when Quick Draw and Potent Potion come into play, plus more HP, Defense, and Resistance, in exchange for few useless Luck and overkill Skill. The late-game advantage then is that Azama can once a Mechanist work through an E Shuriken rank or Arms Scroll it for a good 1-2 enemy phase, something Takumi won't have. And Takumi makes a worse Mechanist by the way.

Other changes I made were raising Hayato to bottom of Low, and dropping Hana to top of Bottom (mostly because I pondered whether she is really better than Hayato or not). Shura seemed a bit strange to be between Hinata and Subaki when those two are practically one in my thinking, so he dropped slightly.

[guedesbrawl]

Rinkah tends to not have the magic and speed to ORKO anything but wyverns with Bolt Axe. But she can do it with an effective onmyoji pair-up bot like Hayato. The big problem si that high res targest like bowsmen are still duds for her in combat and the others use magic themselves so she kinda gets rekt.

Hana has zero enemy phase potential. Hayato is very hard to train (especially without a rinkah) , but he not only has potential but has a wider range of enemies he can delete as an onmyoji, nevermind EP potential as a basara. Hana's goign to struggle really hard without some MoA dual weapon abuse to maintain impact in EP

[joshcja]

Why do people keep mentioning Basara on the unit with inherent Oni Cheiftain.

Edit: Oh it's because sekrit books are a highly sought after resource now fsr.

Edited February 24, 2017 by joshcja

[guedesbrawl]

8 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Why do people keep mentioning Basara on the unit with inherent Oni Cheiftain.

Because Hayato has SKL problems. Rinkah tends to have higher SKL but her hit rates aren't amazing; i shudder to think of what an Oni hayato's would look like.

Not too sure if it's the best single-reclass path for him, but reclassing Hayato to Oni after getting him 20 levels of diviner and promoting means his 20/20 average SKL is 15. 22 as a Basara isn't super accurate either, but he also has a lot more luck on that class which factors in the hit formula a bit (difference would be 10 points in that 20/20 scenario)

You can probably get a better turn count with as Oni, but it's a risk. And there's only one BA in the game, so Basara opens room for a better user of the weapon (Corrin. maybe an Oni Saizo)

[Dunal]

Setsuna that bad? She isn't that good either, but a +2 bronze (2000g) and a couple early speed tonics puts her early offence/accuracy in a spot that's surprisingly good before getting Quick Draw (more offence that is quickly achievable compared to other units like Subaki/Rinkah/Orochi etc... with the same investment). I'd put her at Orochi's level (whether above or below her I'm not certain). Later on she has more offence than Takumi when he cannot double.

That initial investment isn't exactly doing her favors, but you end up with a 1RKO player phase unit where someone like Orochi struggles to become (she's a good attack stance + staff bot nonetheless). 

Ninja access is good as well. Her bases as that class are interchangeable with Kaze, weapon rank aside (she may want a bronze forge in this case as well, but that's even more investment than just the heart seal). That joins a couple maps later. Hypothetically, it that was Kaze's situation (joining a bit later and wanting a forge), I doubt he'd suddenly drop from high to bottom.

I think she's looked at poorly because of Takumi, but as with any unit, you need to look at them (mostly) in a vacuum.

[joshcja]

Looking at units in a void is like treating the player phase as an important element in BR.

[guedesbrawl]

2 hours ago, DLuna said:

Setsuna that bad? She isn't that good either, but a +2 bronze (2000g) and a couple early speed tonics puts her early offence/accuracy in a spot that's surprisingly good before getting Quick Draw (more offence that is quickly achievable compared to other units like Subaki/Rinkah/Orochi etc... with the same investment). I'd put her at Orochi's level (whether above or below her I'm not certain). Later on she has more offence than Takumi when he cannot double.

That initial investment isn't exactly doing her favors, but you end up with a 1RKO player phase unit where someone like Orochi struggles to become (she's a good attack stance + staff bot nonetheless). 

Ninja access is good as well. Her bases as that class are interchangeable with Kaze, weapon rank aside (she may want a bronze forge in this case as well, but that's even more investment than just the heart seal). That joins a couple maps later. Hypothetically, it that was Kaze's situation (joining a bit later and wanting a forge), I doubt he'd suddenly drop from high to bottom.

I think she's looked at poorly because of Takumi, but as with any unit, you need to look at them (mostly) in a vacuum.

Efficiency tends to not care about PP.

In a normal playthrough, yeah. Setsuna is good, though the fact that Takumi joins soon without needing investment AND that you get a lot more from investing in Mozu who is about as hard to raise as Setsuna makes her mid-low tier at best.

orochi has about the same impact as Setsuna in a normal playthrough but with less effort. you just need to use attack stance with her, and later on remember that there is a brave scroll (snake spirit i believe) in BR

 

[Dark Holy Elf]

I don't know if I agree that Mozu is a "lot" better than Setsuna. Mozu has a bit more power, a bit less speed, and if we're talking about archers I barely care about their other stats. I guess Mozu can afford Kinshi's str hit + lack of +40 hit skill a little better if that's your plan for her.

 

On a related note: Hana's tough to rank and I don't precisely object to her being in Bottom, but I do tend to think she's somewhat better. Her start is shaky for sure but once she gets rolling her offence is pretty insane. She really really wants you to draw a random avo-boosting katana (since this makes her enemy phase much more viable) but even with just the basics + dual katana she can often see 0 hit on player phase, which basically makes her at worst another sniper: let her annihilate one enemy then wall her in. Although she can usually take one hit on the enemy phase which is a major edge she has over snipers. I'd argue this looks better than Orochi, for instance.

[guedesbrawl]

4 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I don't know if I agree that Mozu is a "lot" better than Setsuna. Mozu has a bit more power, a bit less speed, and if we're talking about archers I barely care about their other stats. I guess Mozu can afford Kinshi's str hit + lack of +40 hit skill a little better if that's your plan for her.

 

Mozu has higher attack compared to setsuna by level 15/00 or so, which eventually lets her take on targets with way more HP and finish them off, without needing somethign like forged silvers. Mozu also doesn't have setsuna's low accuracy problems before Certain Blow for as long, and she also tends to have more defense, which lets her take on targets that can strike back in the lategame (everything oneshots setsuna by that point more or less. She can see EP action with Dual Yumi but there's always a risk)

[Dark Holy Elf]

I acknowledged Mozu has higher Atk, yeah.

The hit gap... goes from +6.5 for Setsuna to +9.5 for Mozu in the levels prior to Certain Blow so that one's really a wash, though you're right that there is a window around promotion time where Mozu's lead is notable.

On the other hand, it's simply untrue that most things one-shot Setsuna. Loading up Garon's map to check (which has quite powerful enemies) and assuming a 20/15 Setsuna, only Berserkers, two Brave Lance Generals, Garon, and Garon's Tomefaire Sorcerer can one-shot her. Of those, only Garon/Sorcerer/Tomahawks can counter her, and none of the berserkers start with their Tomahawks out (and some don't have one to start with). Setsuna can take at least one hit from all the highest-attack enemies otherwise, including Generals, Wyvern Lords, and Great Knights. She can also survive everything except Garon with tonics (and a Dual Yumi in the sorcerer's case).

Still, no argument that Mozu ends up better. It's just not by enough to really impress me considering her worse start (requiring a Heart Seal, lower str/spd by 2/3, E rank in bows). I'm fine with arguments putting Mozu above Setsuna but the gap is not large and I do feel they belong in the same tier.

[XeKr]

Jakob 1 is probably less impressive in this route, but he’s still potentially an early paladin (8 move, promoted bases, Javelins ohkos on squishes, etc), and if you pass him Wyvern he doesn’t really fall off between Elbow Room+Defender+Trample+Bolt Axe. Not exactly sure how Felicia stacks up, but she might be able to use Horse Spirit in Malig well.

I think Kaze and Saizo are better than Kagero, because the best chapters for the ninjas are C8-10 and she isn’t around for that.

Subaki has lower stats than Hinoka, but Hinoka is quite good so I’m not sure he should be so low. His mobility is pretty good for C7 since the cavs are stuck in a corner, and flight helps in the early maps like the desert, forest, boat, etc. Early combat is decent enough with Rinkah/Oboro pair-up. Later on he can Beastkiller wolves and horses, Bolt Nagi the 0 Res side in the Rainbow sage map, and be a flying Rescue Staff.

Edited February 25, 2017 by XeKr

[Dark Holy Elf]

Jakob may be less impressive on this route but he's already in Mid Tier (whereas he's higher in most Conquest lists I've seen) so I feel like that's already addressed.

Why do you feel C8-10 are the best maps for ninjas, out of interest?

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah, I think Subaki is underrated here. His combat doesn't look great at first, but he's pretty much as effective as Hinoka with the Bolt Naginata (give him an Orochi Pair Up and the Spirit Dusts). Doing this gives us a flier with good 1-2 range combat who can also Rescue staff- he's pretty fixable on the physical end as well. I don't really see how he's below anyone in Mid tier given his availability and flight- BR enemy stats are low enough that the stat benchmarks for good combat aren't very high.

 

[XeKr]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Jakob may be less impressive on this route but he's already in Mid Tier (whereas he's higher in most Conquest lists I've seen) so I feel like that's already addressed.

Why do you feel C8-10 are the best maps for ninjas, out of interest?

Jakob 1 being worse in Birthright than Conquest doesn’t mean he can’t be better than most of the cast in Birthright. Jakob is still one of the best earlygame units, as he has promoted bases+Elbow Room+Defender and 8 move. Lvl 3ish Jakob with Corrin Pair Up is already probably the best unit in C7 (mounted, solid Hp/Def, nearly onerounds the entire map), and it snowballs as he catches up in levels, gets skills, and builds weapon rank (see below). Durability is pretty good throughout the earlygame, and he onerounds basically everything unpromoted at 1 range, and can reach some ohko benchmarks for mages/ninjas at 1-2. His raw stats make him one of the better units to fight the few promoted enemies and bosses early on. If he is passed Wyvern, he continues to oneround at 1-2 range for most of the game. And he has Shelter/flying. It’s hard to ask for much more of a unit.

(C7) Level 3 Paladin!Jakob w/ C +Mag Corrin, Brass Naginata, tonics: 22.9 atk, 13 AS. 28 Hp, 14.6 Def

        Level 3 GK!Jakob w/ Hana, Brass Club, tonics: 21.9 atk, 14 AS, 30 hp, 14.6 Def (only do this if you really care about the Spd benchmark early in C7. Paladin quickly gets enough Spd between levels and Defender, and is better in the future because of 1 more move and using +Str/Def Pair Ups)

(After Mozu paralogue?) Level 10 Paladin!Jakob w/ C Rinkah, Iron Naginata, Elbow Room, Defender, Res+2, tonics: 32.4 atk, 15.15 AS. 32.2 Hp, 17.05 Def, 16.15 Res

tbh right now I consider the top tier Corrin, Jakob 1, Azura, Ryoma, (maybe Felicia 1 depending on her Def works out), probably in that order.

C8-10 are the best chapters for Ninjas because they’re all routs with enemy mages/ninjas, so efficiency is improved immensely with units that can counterattack at 1-2 range. Characters like +Str Corrin, Jakob, and maybe Silas with his personal active may ohko some squishy enemies, but won’t oneround the 1 range ones on the same enemy phase. The Ninjas have good offense against the other enemies too between Steel Shuriken+Pair Up+Tonics. Dark Mage/Diviner Corrin can also work against mages, but not too well against Ninjas. Ninja Corrin works but she’s not mounted/flying later, and she’s better than these characters anyways due to Nobility/Yato bonuses/Servant personals. You don’t have magic weapons and the mages are bad at this time.

Kagero is slightly underleveled at join time compared to Kaze/Saizo (especially since they were useful in the previous chapters) and her Str lead, when it kicks in, is mostly overkill. There are tons of unpromoted enemies up until Chapter 23. Kagero could be better than Kaze in the C22/C23 routs (not sure, I don’t have the enemy stats atm) but she doesn’t really have the durability to take heavy enemy phases for those chapters anyways. There’s also more 1-2 range options like Ryoma (lol), Bolt Nagi/Axe (on mounted units, more mt, attacks Res), Horse Spirit (gives durability, on mounted/flying units, attacks Res, better triangle vs Berserker/Sorc mix) so the ninjas are less relatively impressive then (though still fairly good).

Maybe in cases where Ryoma/Corrin are steamrolling everything, all the other units are underleveled and the Str lead might matter more, but at that pace the C8-10 contributions are more valuable anyways.

Edited February 25, 2017 by XeKr
added some numbers

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oh, my apologies; I misread and thought you were arguing that Jakob was worse in this path (and thus that he is too high?). I agree that he's too low if anything; I would agree that at he should be above the ninjas... and the arguments which put him above Silas in Conquest probably hold here too, although Silas' better weapon ranks in Birthright make that much less clearcut.

I really can't see him being above Ryoma, no amount of hype for availability and shelter + flight can make up for how dominant Ryoma is in combat to me. In a LTC tier list I could certainly buy it but that's not what this is.

[-Cynthia-]

The ninjas have significantly better 1-2 range though, Jakob is relying on an unforged Javelin(which is contested by all the other lance users at the time). He also needs a Heart Seal which are in short supply early and Corrin definitely wants one of those. Being mounted is just kinda meh with all the fliers BR gives you. That said, I don't think he should be a tier below Silas since they're very similar.

Kaze has trouble ORKOing promoted enemies in the lategame routs (even with Rinkah Pair Up) compared to Kagero and they have the same durability issues. Kagero doesn't really need extra Str or Spd so she can have a Pair Up that gives high Def like Hinata. I probably would value Kaze's early contributions more, but they're closer than most people think IMO..