The Fire Emblem in the Plot- How to Do It? *Spoilers*

[Interdimensional Observer]

The actual Fire Emblem. It's been: a gloried lockpick (Of destiny!), nonexistent, shield that seals, a family crest that amounts to nothing, a seal on a sword of seals, a succession item, a stone of light containing darkness, a medallion holding chaos, a chainsaw of destiny, and even an opera.

This is the question I ask- how much of a role should the Fire Emblem play in the plot? Most games, even the very first Fire Emblem, generally relegate it to a minor role despite being titular. 

I'd personally say that Tellius does the Fire Emblem best, Lehran's Medallion has substantial importance from the beginning to the end of PoR. It remains important in Part 3 of RD, and while the Medallion itself is no longer that important in Part 4, the Covenant it symbolized and Yune- that which gave its fiery glow (you could call Yune herself the Fire Emblem) are extremely important. Plus, Ike as Hero of the Blue Flames (with that blue flame aura) connects the Fire Emblem and the main character together better stylistically than Marth/Chrom with the Fire Emblem being used as a shield.

Fates shoehorns in the Fire Emblem it seems. Awakening's use of it, though okay in principle, I feel could have been better executed. Perhaps if we dumped Valm and reworked the gemstone collecting thing.

If you treat all five Sacred Stones as Fire Emblems, Magvel did decently. FE7's Bern arc did well with the Fire Emblem, but was just an episode in the whole of things. I guess FE6 was okay if you consider the Binding Blade an extension of the Fire Emblem.

Jugdral I like because it's proof IS can write good plots without centering things on the Fire Emblem.

[Topaz Light]

Honestly, I say just pick any plot-important item that would make at least moderate sense to be called an "Emblem" and to be associated with the element of Fire, and slap the name on it. The "Fire Emblem" itself doesn't need to be any specific thing, I think; it can be implemented in any number of ways. I don't even think they need to use it in any given game, honestly; the title is honestly identified way more with the series itself than with the fictional item within it at this point.

[maybe]

honestly I think tellius did it best but I never really thought of the medallion as the "Fire Emblem"

they call it that like, once

it fit well into the plot but I feel like they could've actually called it that a bit more often

[saisymbolic]

I enjoyed the Tellius version of it as well. When first seeing the cinematic cutscene of it in PoR, I knew exactly what it was. Of course, after seeing that cutscene, I forgot about its existence until it was brought up again by the characters. That said, I'm glad that the game itself didn't completely forget about it, and it did serve a relatively important part of the story. 

So, I don't really care how it's portrayed. I only care that it makes sense in the narrative of the game.

[NekoKnight]

Meh, I don't think the story is or should be obligated to have a "Fire Emblem" just because that's the series title. Imagine if every Final Fantasy had to include something that would be its namesake? "Cloud, we need the the last Materia aka the 'FINAL FANTASY', in order to defeat Sephiroth!" Talk about shoe-horned in. I think this is one FE tradition we don't need to see continued.

The subtitle definitely should have a significance however. What is "Path of Radiance"? The game should be called "Path of Ike" and the sequel "Radiant Ike"

Edited March 20, 2017 by NekoKnight

[baticeer]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

If you treat all five Sacred Stones as Fire Emblems, Magvel did decently. FE7's Bern arc did well with the Fire Emblem, but was just an episode in the whole of things. I guess FE6 was okay if you consider the Binding Blade an extension of the Fire Emblem.

In Magvel the Fire Emblem is specifically the name for the Sacred Stone of Grado, though. So, I think SS is the only game where the Fire Emblem is not only never possessed by the main characters, but was destroyed before the plot even starts...! Although I suppose the end of the game does feature the heroes creating a new Fire Emblem.

Edited March 20, 2017 by baticeer

[Anacybele]

I think it should play a more important role in the plots since that's what the series name is. Tellius did it the best, yeah, since the medallion was pretty significant in itself and all.

I like the idea of the lord already having the Fire Emblem in their possession, but perhaps not knowing it, and it gets them roped into conflict. Don't say Tellius did this, because Ike didn't actually possess the medallion, Mist did. So it doesn't really count. My idea is that the lord literally carries the Emblem, or at least part of it. My lord character unknowingly wears half of it around her neck. The other half was resting in some random place until the enemy found it. This, plus her origins is what gets her roped into the plot and eventually Lord status.

[Augestein]

I don't think it should matter. And I find it silly that it needs to be shoe horned into the game each time. At this point I almost think it's a bit of a joke the writers' do. 

[Tolvir]

18 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Meh, I don't think the story is or should be obligated to have a "Fire Emblem" just because that's the series title. Imagine if every Final Fantasy had to include something that would be its namesake? "Cloud, we need the the last Materia aka the 'FINAL FANTASY', in order to defeat Sephiroth!" Talk about shoe-horned in. I think this is one FE tradition we don't need to see continued.

The subtitle definitely should have a significance however. What is "Path of Radiance"? The game should be called "Path of Ike" and the sequel "Radiant Ike"

I agree with this. Its one of my largest issues with the series as a whole. Having a plot device that is needed like this in every game makes it really predictable. It doesn't allow for varying villains and scenarios. PoR is the only one I can think of without a supernatural villain, and even then the "Fire Emblem" was present. Though uniquely, the villain was the one who ended up using it.

 

Overall I think the idea of the "Fire Emblem" as an actual plot piece needs to go away. As Neko said, just because the series is named after it doesn't mean it needs to have it present in the story.

[Extrasolar]

25 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Meh, I don't think the story is or should be obligated to have a "Fire Emblem" just because that's the series title. Imagine if every Final Fantasy had to include something that would be its namesake? "Cloud, we need the the last Materia aka the 'FINAL FANTASY', in order to defeat Sephiroth!" Talk about shoe-horned in. I think this is one FE tradition we don't need to see continued.

I think the difference is that the name "Final Fantasy" wasn't meant to refer to anything in any of the game universes; it was a nod to the fact that it was going to be Square's final game before the game became an unexpected hit.

The Fire Emblem as an item in-universe has always been a thing, since the days of Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light, though, so think it should always show up in at least some capacity. Granted, it's not amazingly important in every game (in Jugdral, I think it's mentioned in passing as the emblem of Velthomer's ruling family, and is never seen? That's...really obscure, to the point that they might as well not even bothered to include it.)

I'll agree that the Tellius series did it best with Lehran's Medallion. It seemed to be nothing but a keepsake at first, and only gained in mystique and plot relevance as the plot continued, to the point that it was instrumental in a lot of plot twists by the end. I hope the FE writers take notes from that.

I can see how using it as a plot device or McGuffin could get tiresome or predictable (and they don't necessarily need to always have it have mystical plot-influencing powers like Lehran's Medallion did), but personally I think sticking with a few recognizable traditions can't hurt. It's like having a character named Nina in every Breath of Fire game - at this point, it's just a comfortable, recognizable thing.

25 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

The subtitle definitely should have a significance however. What is "Path of Radiance"? The game should be called "Path of Ike" and the sequel "Radiant Ike"

Fun fact! It's called "Path of the Blue Flame" in Japan, which makes more sense, since blue fire on Ragnell and stuff is kind of Ike's thing, especially in Radiant Dawn.

He's called the "Hero of the Blue Flames" in Japan, whereas he's the "Radiant Hero" in the west. I guess they just thought "Radiance" sounded nicer? I mean, I guess since Ashera is the goddess of Dawn, and dawn is often described as radiant... Idk, I'm just spitballing at this point.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Extrasolar

[NekoKnight]

5 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I think the difference is that the name "Final Fantasy" wasn't meant to refer to anything in any of the game universes; it was a nod to the fact that it was going to be Square's final game before the game became an unexpected hit.

The Fire Emblem has always been a thing, since the days of Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light, though, so think it should always show up in at least some capacity. Granted, it's not amazingly important in every game (in Jugdral, I think it's mentioned in passing as the emblem of Velthomer's ruling family, and is never seen? That's...really obscure, to the point that they might as well not even bothered to include it.)

I'll agree that the Tellius series did it best with the Medallion. It seemed to be nothing but a keepsake at first, and only gained in mystique and plot relevance as the plot continued, to the point that it was instrumental in a lot of plot twists by the end. I hope the FE writers take notes from that.

I can see how using it as a plot device of McGuffin could get tiresome or predictable (and they don't necessarily need to have it have mystical plot-influencing powers like Lehran's Medallion did), but personally I think sticking with a few recognizable traditions can't hurt. It's like having a character named Nina in every Breath of Fire game - at this point, it's just a comfortable, recognizable thing.

I don't think anything should continue to be a part of a series because of "tradition" if it doesn't contribute in a positive way. Is there a story writer who keeps shaking his fists saying "No! You just gotta!" whenever he's asked why they have to keep including the Fire Emblem? Sacred Stones and the Radiant Dawn have a good use of a plot item that they may as well call the Fire Emblem, but why does the Yato need to be called that? Why does anything need to be called that? I'd be on board if the Fire Emblem were a consistent thing passed down through a singular continuity such as the Triforce in The Legend of Zelda but as it can be literally anything in Fire Emblem, it's pointless to include.

Now I'm imagining the devs talking about the next FE title:
"Shit, we forgot to include a Fire Emblem! The traditions, man!"
"Fuckin....fine. Uh... the protagonist wakes up one morning and asks what's for breakfast and his advisor says "Fire Emblem, sir." Because in their world, 'Fire Emblem' is slang for 'bacon and eggs'. Sound good?"

[Extrasolar]

26 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I don't think anything should continue to be a part of a series because of "tradition" if it doesn't contribute in a positive way. Is there a story writer who keeps shaking his fists saying "No! You just gotta!" whenever he's asked why they have to keep including the Fire Emblem? Sacred Stones and the Radiant Dawn have a good use of a plot item that they may as well call the Fire Emblem, but why does the Yato need to be called that? Why does anything need to be called that?

I think it's one of those things that sort of-kind of ties the different universes together, alongside stuff like the Dragon's Gates, the same-named tomes and stuff. Another way to give that familiar feeling without making it the exact same object/item.

My first question is why they named the series after it in the first place - granted, it's relatively significant in the Archanea lore by being the magical keepsake of the Archanean royal family, and the magical orbs mounted on the shield itself sealed the Earth Dragons, and whatnot (iirc on all of this stuff, as I haven't reviewed any Archanea stuff in a bit). But it's hardly the most significant element of the plot.

Seems like they intended for an object or item called the "Fire Emblem" to be significant, even when they started branching out and creating other worlds... But the problem is, the writers themselves didn't really stick to those rules in Jugdral and Elibe, and such, making the title itself something of an inaccurate/insignificant title. (Really, the subtitles of FE games tend to be the most important and meaningful part of the title, pretty much... The first step to making the Fire Emblem relevant again is to change that.)

26 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Now I'm imagining the devs talking about the next FE title:
"Shit, we forgot to include a Fire Emblem! The traditions, man!"
"Fuckin....fine. Uh... the protagonist wakes up one morning and asks what's for breakfast and his advisor says "Fire Emblem, sir." Because in their world, 'Fire Emblem' is slang for 'bacon and eggs'. Sound good?"

Lol, that was pretty funny.

But I think the problem isn't of the Fire Emblem itself, but that writers don't always use it to its fullest potential. I'd argue that the problem isn't the tradition of having the Fire Emblem itself, but the fact that a lot of the time it's not made relevant (or as relevant as it should be). People generally don't have any problems with Lehran's Medallion, but that's because the Tellius games are well-written in general, and Lehran's Medallion is no exception to that; if anything, the medallion enhances the myth arc/metaplot and atmosphere of the Tellius games.

What we need is for writers to spend more time fleshing out the Fire Emblem and its significance or get more creative in its application; I mean, when the series as a whole is named after the thing, it's gonna need to be more relevant than it usually is.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Extrasolar

[NekoKnight]

5 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

But I think the problem isn't of the Fire Emblem itself, but that writers don't always use it to its fullest potential. I'd argue that the problem isn't the tradition of having the Fire Emblem itself, but the fact that a lot of the time it's not made relevant (or as relevant as it should b). People generally don't have any problems with Lehran's Medallion, but that's because the Tellius games are well-written in general, and Lehran's Medallion is no exception to that; if anything, the medallion enhances the myth arc/metaplot and atmosphere of the Tellius games.

What we need is for writers to spend more time fleshing out the Fire Emblem and its significance or get more creative in its application; I mean, when the series as a whole is named after the thing, it's gonna need to be more relevant than it usually is.

My problem with this mindset is it limits what they do in the story, solely for the sake of needless tradition. What if the story is about politics, or love, or fighting some supernatural force involving no mystic objects? Either the Fire Emblem is shoehorned in or we have to change the story we want to tell just to make a plot significant Fire Emblem "because tradition". Fire Emblem is more often than not, not about an item called the Fire Emblem.

To go back to Final Fantasy as an example, the first game was called that because it was thought to be their last fantasy game, and yet the series is still called "Final" Fantasy. It's an artifact title, and that's okay. Why can't the Fire Emblem retire as just the title of the series?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

My least favorite is FE7 in which the Fire Emblem simply makes a cameo appearance. It's jarring for the first game of the series (to us) to have such a tenuous connection to what the series was named after. I'm also not a fan of Fates and Tellius since those objects had actual identities before they name dropped "Fire Emblem". Plus there's more things they can do with the Fire Emblem than having it seal something. How about Fire Emblem as a limitless energy source, a tool to traverse time, a weapon primed to destroy the planet, or a staff that can give or resurrect life? Or heck, don't make it some important object but an idea. Fire Emblem could be the name of a chivalrous code that the protagonist lives by. Or the name of a story book or art piece that inspires the protagonist to set the game's events in motion.

[Extrasolar]

9 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

My problem with this mindset is it limits what they do in the story, solely for the sake of needless tradition. What if the story is about politics, or love, or fighting some supernatural force involving no mystic objects? Either the Fire Emblem is shoehorned in or we have to change the story we want to tell just to make a plot significant Fire Emblem "because tradition". Fire Emblem is more often than not, not about an item called the Fire Emblem.

I don't necessarily think it limits the plot. The Fire Emblem could honestly be anything - it's a shield in Archanea, a magical medallion in Tellius, a sword in...nameless Fates world...etc. The story can still be about all of things, and the Fire Emblem itself doesn't need to be mystical in nature... We can expand what exactly it can refer to.

Shoehorning is a symptom of deeper writing problems to begin with; in a well-written FE, the Fire Emblem itself wouldn't necessarily be shoehorned. You can build it into the plot without focusing on it.
 

4 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

How about Fire Emblem as a limitless energy source, a tool to traverse time, a weapon primed to destroy the planet, or a staff that can give or resurrect life? Or heck, don't make it some important object but an idea. Fire Emblem could be the name of a chivalrous code that the protagonist lives by. Or the name of a story book or art piece that inspires the protagonist to set the game's events in motion.

I like these ideas! That's why I think the problem isn't necessarily the Fire Emblem itself, but always how it can be used in-story. These are interesting concepts that can easily be made relevant to the story, and they're all diverse.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Flee Fleet!]

Tellius does it best.

But hey, in FE3, Shadow Dragon, New Mystery, and maybe Awakening (I never played it so...) allows you to see the lord holding the shield in their other hand, always, in every single battle.

I can't even remember if it had any effect on the lord once he got it.

 

Sacred Stones did it decently if, as you said, we consider the sacred stones as fire emblems. However it is true they aren't called Fire Emblems. There isn't even a thing called fire emblem in Magvel iirc, right?

FE7 just made it plot important for a sort of side story involving Bern. It otherwise has no use at all. In FE6 though, iirc, it's used to get the Sealed Sword right? If so, it is indeed important in this game.

 

 

[Magical Glace]

3 hours ago, Flee Fleet! said:

Tellius does it best.

But hey, in FE3, Shadow Dragon, New Mystery, and maybe Awakening (I never played it so...) allows you to see the lord holding the shield in their other hand, always, in every single battle.

I can't even remember if it had any effect on the lord once he got it.

 

Sacred Stones did it decently if, as you said, we consider the sacred stones as fire emblems. However it is true they aren't called Fire Emblems. There isn't even a thing called fire emblem in Magvel iirc, right?

FE7 just made it plot important for a sort of side story involving Bern. It otherwise has no use at all. In FE6 though, iirc, it's used to get the Sealed Sword right? If so, it is indeed important in this game.

 

 

Magvel's Fire Emblem is the Sacred Stone of Grado, because Formortiis was in it.  I assume Rausten's stone gets it after the game, though, since its now serving that purpose.

As for the Archanea Fire Emblem, it was important in 3 and sort-of 13, but was irrelevant basically everywhere else.  In 1/11 it was little more than a glorified Chest Key Nyna gives Marth

[NinjaMonkey]

16 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

a chainsaw of destiny

Which FE game was that, exactly?

[Interdimensional Observer]

That was just me joking about the Omega Yato. I questioned whether I should have said sword or not, but I opted to keep the minor joke.

[Flee Fleet!]

49 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Magvel's Fire Emblem is the Sacred Stone of Grado, because Formortiis was in it.  I assume Rausten's stone gets it after the game, though, since its now serving that purpose.

As for the Archanea Fire Emblem, it was important in 3 and sort-of 13, but was irrelevant basically everywhere else.  In 1/11 it was little more than a glorified Chest Key Nyna gives Marth

Ah, okay then.

 

And yeah, true about the Archanea part. Is it actually even used as a shield or something in 13, like in 3, or is it just sort of shown for some time and then completely forgotten later for the rest of the game? 

[Magical Glace]

58 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

Ah, okay then.

 

And yeah, true about the Archanea part. Is it actually even used as a shield or something in 13, like in 3, or is it just sort of shown for some time and then completely forgotten later for the rest of the game? 

It appears on Chrom's Great Lord model while its in his possession.  If you have Chrom be a Great Lord before he obtains it or while it's stolen, it isn't on his model.

[JJ48]

It's always nice when the Fire Emblem makes an appearance, but I hardly think it should be a requirement in every entry in the series.  I mean, look at the Legend of Zelda series.  In the original LoZ, Zelda's captured and only makes a brief appearance in time for the closing credits.  In Zelda II, she's asleep the whole game.  In the Oracle titles, I think she only makes an appearance in a linked game.  In Link's Awakening, she barely gets a mention or two.

 

The lesson is clear:  every main protagonist in Fire Emblem should wear identical tunics and silly-looking hats.

[Original Alear]

Tellius's looks the coolest (or one of the coolest), has a character inside it, has some sort of emotional driving power behind it (unfortunately usually affects people badly), is associated with awesome heron song(s?) to contain it, and has a great alternative name ("Lehran's Medallion" and maybe more?).

I don't know what to make of Jugdral's Fire Emblem. I don't know what it looks like. I guess Fala/Vala is involved in some of the most interesting/icky bloodline contortions in this game. Alvis is an interesting character, as are a number of other Fala folks.

I haven't really played the Archanea games, but I think the FE in Awakening looks cool, and the falchion in that game is decently cool too. I didn't get a lot of mileage out of the way the game would throw the stones onto your shield on occasion, though of course they do make it look cooler.