How would you feel about a genuinely villainous/malicious Divine Dragon?

[Reality]

2 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Dark theory/writing time. A Divine Dragon human zoo. Humans are kept to "protect them" from themselves, other dragons, and each other. They don't realize that they're stripping away the rights and freedoms of these people, and their abilities at self-determination.

If the human protagonists find out, they call out the dragons in a "what the hell are you guys doing?" moment. Dragons react defensively. Of course the humans just don't understand. The Divines are wiser than they could ever hope to be...

 This would be cutting edge in 1986... however, today it's practically tacky. Even Mark Millar can write stories like this. Of course, video game fiction hasn't caught up to high fantasy, comics, or television. Although even if you judge by that well Fire Emblem has still been beaten to the punch by quite a few games. 

Personally I think capital letter EVIL is refreshing. Insert rant about merits of C.S.Lewis versus Phillip Pullman

[Emperor Hardin]

6 hours ago, Refa said:

If you want black/white in your dragons, you need look no further than fire dragons.

Bantu is pretty the only exception, though, unless you count Salamander. Every other Fire Dragon is at least antagonistic and volatile to the majority of humans.

Anyhow it would be nice. Even Tearring Saga had a playable Earth Dragon.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Heptade]

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

 

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Suikoden tries to keep things on a smaller scale and a little more realistic. The first game is entirely in one empire, and the second is in one republic and a small rival kingdom. The magical True Runes and destiny intervene, but they are largely secondary to what humans are doing. The final bosses are but manifestations of True Rune power summoned by a human and the rune creations have no will of their own. Suikoden isn't perfect by a long shot don't get me wrong, but I think FE could try doing something similar on a thematic level.

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I would love if FE writing became a bit more like Suikoden. Suikoden V, in my opinion, is possibly the best-written video game I've played for politcal plots. Most nations have very in-depth history and culture, the intrigue has just the right balance of fantasy and realism.

From the FE games I've played, the Tellius duology was where the series came the closest to achieving something like that, though I've heard the Jugdral games were quite good in that aspect as well.

Awakening went for something more light-hearted and humorous (despite some serious and moving parts), with quirkier characters. It worked rather well on its own.

Fates' basic plot outline, however, warranted moral ambiguity and political depth, i.e. Suikoden-like, or at the very least Tellius-like writing. Instead we got Awakening-inspired writing and characters. While I like most of the Fates characters, and believe it is overall a very worthy entry in the series, I must admit that sometimes the writing and characters feel like they belong in another game, which is ultimately Fates' biggest weakness.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Heptade

[vanguard333]

Perhaps, in one fire emblem game, there could be multiple human kingdoms and a kingdom of manaketes, but that manakete kingdom is divided into essentially clans, based on what kind of manakete they are (fire, ice, earth/dusk, divine/dawn, etc.), and the kingdom is ruled by a council consisting of the leader of each clan. Perhaps the clans are beginning to fracture due to the war between humans causing an isolationist movement among manaketes.

Another idea I had is that humans and manaketes all live in the same kingdoms; there are no only-manakete or only-human kingdoms. There is equality among some of the kingdoms, but, among others, manaktetes are either the upper class or second-class citizens. In one of the latter kingdoms, manaketes can leave the slums by joining the army, where they can quickly achieve high rank due to their power. Half-human half-manaketes can choose at their coming of age whether to become socially a manakete (by having a dragonstone made for them) or be human. Manaketes have a long lifespan, but not nearly as long as that in other continents, so their is less of a lifespan gap between them and humans.

[Heptade]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Perhaps, in one fire emblem game, there could be multiple human kingdoms and a kingdom of manaketes, but that manakete kingdom is divided into essentially clans, based on what kind of manakete they are (fire, ice, earth/dusk, divine/dawn, etc.), and the kingdom is ruled by a council consisting of the leader of each clan. Perhaps the clans are beginning to fracture due to the war between humans causing an isolationist movement among manaketes.

Another idea I had is that humans and manaketes all live in the same kingdoms; there are no only-manakete or only-human kingdoms. There is equality among some of the kingdoms, but, among others, manaktetes are either the upper class or second-class citizens. In one of the latter kingdoms, manaketes can leave the slums by joining the army, where they can quickly achieve high rank due to their power. Half-human half-manaketes can choose at their coming of age whether to become socially a manakete (by having a dragonstone made for them) or be human. Manaketes have a long lifespan, but not nearly as long as that in other continents, so their is less of a lifespan gap between them and humans.

I've had an idea that would subvert the series standards: one human nation, and multiple (say, about five) warring manakete nations, with humans being forced to take part in a conflict that shouldn't concern them, and the manakete behaving just like humans, though they'd have to create multiple manakete classes, optimally with as much variety as the human classes, in order to avoid getting repetitive.

[vanguard333]

54 minutes ago, Heptade said:

I've had an idea that would subvert the series standards: one human nation, and multiple (say, about five) warring manakete nations, with humans being forced to take part in a conflict that shouldn't concern them, and the manakete behaving just like humans, though they'd have to create multiple manakete classes, optimally with as much variety as the human classes, in order to avoid getting repetitive.

Interesting, though it might be a bit hard to have that much variety for dragons. I can see dragons with varying amounts of armour; let's say three classes there, dragon mages/priests, so another 2 classes, but dragons are living weapons; so I cannot really see manakete swordsmen or archers, and manakete cavalry seems ridiculous (though it is hilarious when one tries to picture it; full-grown dragons trying to ride on top of horses, pegasi, etc.), so that makes five classes, not including promotions. Not even the original had that few classes.

[Interdimensional Observer]

I'm sort of liking this dragon-heavy world stuff (this does not contradict my earlier poetic polemic). I can see it one vision of it now: 

Spoiler

The dragons have descended late into their Silver Age- their Golden Age having already past. During the Golden Age, dragons were free to be in their natural dragon form all the time. But, the magical climate (not the physical one) of the world they lived in began to change, and gradually, dragons began to lose their minds, their bodies degenerated too, and their fertility declined. To avert the destruction of dragonkind, they took humanoid form, sealing their power away in dragonstones. Yet during this Silver Age, it is possible, with proper, highly disciplined training and magical items, to maintain dragon form for years without experiencing the side effects. Some do so out of a sense pride and self-fulfillment.

Living in manakete form has its disadvantages too however, and thus some resent it and find disgusting any dragon who would willingly enter into such a lowly existence. As the Silver Age is approaching its end, the negative effects of staying in dragon form continue to worsen, and feral dragons have becoming increasingly plentiful. Yet, there are extremists who insist that humanoid existence is filthy and treat their draconic form as the holiest thing in the world. These extremists wish to purge dragonkind of its perpetual humanoids, for the elite dragons who have the discipline and skill necessary to maintain dragon form for all eternity against nature's will, to be the only dragons permitted to live. Humans, filthy like manaketes, are likewise to be purged or enslaved and kept at a distance by the pure.

On the other hand, we have those who have chosen to embrace humanity, which is beginning to rise out of its primitive state by this point. Some of these dragons wish to see humanity replace their kind as the dominant upon the planet. Some do so with greatest kindness and altruism, but others cultivate humanity in the myriad of arts and sciences that dragonkind has developed, with the goal of making humans dragons in all by physiology (like Europeans making Africans/Native Americans/Asians culturally European), why some dragons even seek to maintain control of humanity in the shadows to ensure they stay culturally draconic and friendly to dragons.

Add the majority of dragons and dragon nations largely unconcerned on a day-to-day basis with humanity and draconic decline. And, humans who seek to slay the dragons and end their control of the planet.

 

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Interesting, though it might be a bit hard to have that much variety for dragons. I can see dragons with varying amounts of armour; let's say three classes there, dragon mages/priests, so another 2 classes, but dragons are living weapons; so I cannot really see manakete swordsmen or archers, and manakete cavalry seems ridiculous (though it is hilarious when one tries to picture it; full-grown dragons trying to ride on top of horses, pegasi, etc.), so that makes five classes, not including promotions. Not even the original had that few classes.

Flying manaketes need not have mounts. We could make different dragon types have different physiology. Some dragons have wings in manakete form, while others don't for instance. Those with wings can be our flying units. Similarly, bulk, strength, and scaliness could be traits of manaketes suited for armor classes. And the serpentine Asian-dragon-like-manaketes could be suited for bows or katanas.

If, as in my quick vision scenario, made formshifting an art require years and years of intense dedication, then we could have some manaketes who actually fight in dragon form, but the majority of units don't. 

Horses I admit we can't have, but wyverns/feral dragons could work. Basically create a "Dragonmancer" class, manaketes who can tame their feral brethren, or wyverns (what apes are to humans).

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Flying manaketes need not have mounts.

It was meant to be a joke.

[Dandy Druid]

A part of the reason why the Radiance Saga is one of my favorites in terms of stories is the lack of a divine dragon pulling the strings from the backround. There was Ashnard, and then there was Ashera. (What's up with Ash?) Granted, Ashera was a divine being, similar to the dragons, but I felt her motivations made more sense than most divine dragons (passing judgement on humans rather than being an inherently evil force. I would love to see the world of Tellius de-flooded and it all becomes an colonial scramble, which provokes war. I would also like to see Hattari and if there's more nations on the East that we don't know about.)

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

A part of the reason why the Radiance Saga is one of my favorites in terms of stories is the lack of a divine dragon pulling the strings from the backround. There was Ashnard, and then there was Ashera. (What's up with Ash?) Granted, Ashera was a divine being, similar to the dragons, but I felt her motivations made more sense than most divine dragons (passing judgement on humans rather than being an inherently evil force. I would love to see the world of Tellius de-flooded and it all becomes an colonial scramble, which provokes war. I would also like to see Hattari and if there's more nations on the East that we don't know about.)

Well one of the divine dragons are inherently evil forces. Furthermore very few games actually have dragons of any sort behind the plot. In FE1 it's the human Gharnef that manipulates all events while Medeus just sits on his throne doing feck all. Same with FE3. FE6 Yahn makes it very clear that the entire game is based on Zephiel's motivations and plotting and he's basically been sitting there observing it. FE7 the dragons are functionally wild beasts that Negarl is trying to steal the power of. And FE8 doesn't feature any dragons manipulating anything. Just Morva spending all hi days fighting demons.

FE2 and Jugdral sort of have dragons manipulating events but even then they're pretty special cases (especially in Gaiden). The straight up cases of a dragon influencing the world is in Fates and to a lesser degree Awakening. Tellius itself also has a very prominent instance of a powerful immortal (Lehran) manipulating events of the entire plot for his own benefit. I don't think much would really change if it so happened he could turn into a dragon. So I'd say the evil manipulater trope is a plot point that's cropped up only in the newer games of the past ten years.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Jotari

[The_antithesis]

I personally think a dragon changing sides could be quite the cool plot device. This is more on the 'good earth dragon' side. Maybe have the earth dragon be summoned by the villains, only to stab them in the back and join your team as the most OP AF Athos archetype ever. Of course, you would need some other villains to use the dragon on (maybe the oppressive divine dragon we were talking about throughout this thread!) but having an actual dragon on your team would make players feel so powerful!

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, The_antithesis said:

I personally think a dragon changing sides could be quite the cool plot device. This is more on the 'good earth dragon' side. Maybe have the earth dragon be summoned by the villains, only to stab them in the back and join your team as the most OP AF Athos archetype ever. Of course, you would need some other villains to use the dragon on (maybe the oppressive divine dragon we were talking about throughout this thread!) but having an actual dragon on your team would make players feel so powerful!

We get actual dragons on our team in almost every game...Anyway I had this interesting idea for a character who would be a defector from the enemy. He's be pretty monstrous and not the sort of guy you want around but its the final few chapters where you can take all the help you can get. He'd get a prf weapon called a Blood Stone which is basically a dragon stone that works like Nosferatu but is only one range. In a unique form of recruitment he'd join only if the player has a low total turn count throughout the entire game thus far (not ltc style low, just attainable by not spending 50+ turns on any maps) the idea being he's impressed by the lord's ability and defects to what he sees as the winning side. And also for an interesting ending he gets executed for previously unknown war crimes.

[Just call me AL]

An evil dragon from Naga's tribe sounds interesting. After all, we already have a Shadow Dragon that was once a Divine Dragon, and she appeared in FE6. Although said Shadow Dragon initially became one out of coercion, and was subsequently brainwashed, details details. If we already had a Divine Dragon that became a Shadow Dragon because the Divine Dragon was forced to, why can't we have one that becomes a Shadow Dragon because it wants to?