Dearest Dissapointment Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 After screwing around with calcs out of a stubborn refusal to actually be productive, I found something I considered to be noteworthy Spoiler With what I've been told is Lilina's most efficient build in the current meta (please correct me if i'm wrong) and generic rally buffs in each stat for the both of them, Raigh actually has better matchups than her. I didn't think about changing the special at the time, but I can't imagine it making too much of a difference. To be absolutely sure, I went to another calculator Spoiler Unless I've screwed up somewhere, these numbers are rather different from what i've heard many times. Sure, Raigh's lead is probably not all that impressive in the end, but from what I hear Raigh is mediocre at best and Lilina is well above the average, which doesn't quite add up. Is there something I'm missing here? Specials, C skills, Boons and banes, S seals that aren't attack+1? Is Raigh only good using this build and Lilina better with all of the others? Spoiler (also i did similar calcs with Henry and damn he is actually awful even with that build, 68 kills using the first calculator. Leo with the same build, even with the cavalry buffs of +6 instead of +4, gets 117 kills on the first calculator, 2 less than Raigh. Sophia got 97 with the same build, also on the first calculator. Raigh finally viable confirmed?) Spoiler (I don't remember if I put the attack +1 seal on Henry Leo and Sophia I'm sorry please don't inflict pain unto me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilda Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 I think people consider the natural sets/passives/skills/weapons given to the Unit, also with Tome-Blades Speed as a base stat for the unit is more of a key then attack, because you can cover the attack part with the Tome-Blades + buffs. Due to that Lilina is worse because she has lower Speed then Raigh and Raigh is worse then Tharja because she has that much higher Speed. In other words: there is no need to sacrifice a Tharja with Raorblades+ for either one of the above units, unless you are a character loyalist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dearest Dissapointment Posted June 11, 2017 Author Share Posted June 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Hilda said: I think people consider the natural sets/passives/skills/weapons given to the Unit, also with Tome-Blades Speed as a base stat for the unit is more of a key then attack, because you can cover the attack part with the Tome-Blades + buffs. Due to that Lilina is worse because she has lower Speed then Raigh and Raigh is worse then Tharja because she has that much higher Speed. In other words: there is no need to sacrifice a Tharja with Raorblades+ for either one of the above units, unless you are a character loyalist. I will concede to Lilina having a much better vanilla skillset than Raigh, however we're talking optimal play here, and in optimal play I believe resources are not heavily considered, from what I've seen. Which is sad for free to plays like me, but oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) Raigh got hit by base kit bias, and free unit bias. That and as mentioned before, the switch from Tharja to Raigh isn't as drastic as Tharja to Lilina, so people thinks the later should be better. Notable in that LnD is kind of a weird fit on Lilina, so thats something. This is the same community who thinks Virion is D Tier while Setsuna is S Tier when they are literally the same character on Solo, what did you expect Edited June 12, 2017 by JSND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaskedAmpharos Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 I mean, neither Raigh nor Lilina make for better red tome users than Tharja, so the argument is a bit moot as the only reason you would even have Raudrblade on either of them is if you really like one of the two (in which case you already don't care about optimization since you're ditching Tharja) or you really don't like Tharja. I do think it's interesting though, as I'll admit to being guilty of assuming Lilina was better than Raigh without doing calcs myself. As a side note: as far as I'm aware, Lilina's most popular set isn't actually a blade set but rather a T-Adept Raven set. Sure it looks less impressive because she has fewer ORKOs, but the purpose of the set is less to be a one-woman-army and more to reliably check greens and colorless units to allow your actual primary nuke (such as Blárblade Linde) to have free reign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SatsumaFSoysoy Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 2 hours ago, JSND said: Raigh got hit by base kit bias, and free unit bias. Don't forget the waifu bias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dearest Dissapointment Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, JSND said: This is the same community who thinks Virion is D Tier while Setsuna is S Tier when they are literally the same character on Solo, what did you expect Sportaflop 8 hours ago, MaskedAmpharos said: I mean, neither Raigh nor Lilina make for better red tome users than Tharja, so the argument is a bit moot as the only reason you would even have Raudrblade on either of them is if you really like one of the two (in which case you already don't care about optimization since you're ditching Tharja) or you really don't like Tharja. I do think it's interesting though, as I'll admit to being guilty of assuming Lilina was better than Raigh without doing calcs myself. As a side note: as far as I'm aware, Lilina's most popular set isn't actually a blade set but rather a T-Adept Raven set. Sure it looks less impressive because she has fewer ORKOs, but the purpose of the set is less to be a one-woman-army and more to reliably check greens and colorless units to allow your actual primary nuke (such as Blárblade Linde) to have free reign. I agree that the optimisation argument doesn't make too much sense in this context, but I see it thrown around a lot so I just went with it. With a T-Adept Raven set.... yeah Lilina does much better than Raigh (gave them both swordbreaker, if like red tome breaker or something is better please tell me) Spoiler Spoiler I didn't take a screenshot of this, but after these I went and gave them plus 4 buffs in everything because why not. Raigh has 79 kills to Lilina's 91 kills. Just in case you cared I suppose that for Raigh to do better than Lilina, he needs a build that boosts his speed, his one significant advantage over Lilina? I went and gave them both Fury for both redblade and redraven just for keks Spoiler I'm starting to think the buffs are what let Raigh be okay? eh, why not run calcs without buffs because that essay shall totally write itself Spoiler it's not letting me upload and more pictures so I'll just put the calcs here Raigh unbuffed fury redblade swordbreaker +1 attack = 51 wins 3 losses 81 draws Lilina unbuffed fury redblade swordbreaker +1 attack = 58 wins 8 losses 69 draws Raigh unbuffed life and death redblade swordbreaker +1 attack = 64 wins 3 losses 68 draws Lilina unbuffed life and death redblade swordbreaker +1 attack = 68 wins 13 losses 54 draws So, Raigh is reliant on buffs to be better offensively than Lilina. Cool. Personally I'd consider that around the same level as Lilina, maybe a spot or two lower, and not 50.5 tiers lower, but eeeehhhh this community man. From what I've seen serenes seems to be pretty cool, so I'll stick here. Is there any point in having our own tier list here? Is it just considered superflous, are we not supposed to have tier lists here, or are we just lazy? probably the latter 8 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said: Don't forget the waifu bias. ma waif is loli therforee she id S tears Spoiler I personally Lilina is actually pretty smol and a pretty okay unit but shhhhhhhh Edited June 12, 2017 by Dearest Dissapointment misplaced image again again did it work yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SatsumaFSoysoy Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Dearest Dissapointment said: ma waif is loli therforee she id S tears Damn right. Also, usually when comparing Blade setups, I just put +3 Atk and +4 Spd +2 Res, which is what default Eirika with Fort Res seal gives (and Ephraim can be made to give), since that's the most efficient setup you're most likely to ever see. Edited June 12, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaskedAmpharos Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 @Dearest Dissapointment Oh cool, glad to know Lilina still runs the raven set better. And yes, Swordbreaker is the B-skill normally run on those sets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dearest Dissapointment Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 11 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said: Also, usually when comparing Blade setups, I just put +3 Atk and +4 Spd +2 Res, which is what default Eirika with Fort Res seal gives (and Ephraim can be made to give), since that's the most efficient setup you're most likely to ever see. Yeah, i debated whether i wanted to do that or not, but then i decided it was too much work because lazy. Once I'm in the procrastinaty mood again and i have less work I'll see if there are major differences or anything. Maybe since Raigh's got the speed n stuff buffs that are more generous to speed will- ah frick frack snick snack i've opened the calculator again what am i doing I also did +4 defence because rally defence and what the frickles am i doing Ok so, Raigh gets 115 kills and Lilina gets 114 Yeah, while it's not too much of a gap, i still believe that Raigh is at least very close to Lilina's level also @MaskedAmpharos that is a very much floof i likey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaskedAmpharos Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, Dearest Dissapointment said: also @MaskedAmpharos that is a very much floof i likey Floof says thank :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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