2 Major classes are absent for the 1st time

[Emperor Hardin]

First of all, this first element is a playable Armored Knight or its weapon variants. Every Fire Emblem game and even spinoffs+related title has included at least one Armor playable such as Derrick or Mamori. In Warriors, the only Armored Knights in the game are enemy captains. No Armored unit is playable and no named units are even in the class!

The second element that has always been in FE is the obvious guy on horse with a spear AKA Cavalier and/or Lance Knight.

While Cavaliers and Paladins exist in Warriors, they copy Xander's moveset and only use Swords, this despite their map sprites being recycled from Awakening meaning they still brandish lances in their sprites.

These classes feel like things that define Fire Emblem as a franchise and can't be left out, I think. Its weird that all the Lance users are Pegasus Knights and no playable character is an Armored Knight.

[SoulWeaver]

I dunno, I think they believe Armor Knights have kind of been dropping in popularity lately - when was the last time you heard someone say their all-time favorite was Benny, Kellam, or the like? People like Amelia more now because of Heroes, and just about everyone likes the Black Knight, but that's it as far as I've seen, not to mention Armor Knights would walk and run frustratingly slow compared to everyone else, so I at least will not be missing them as playables.

No Cavs is weird, though, considering there's been a Red+Green duo in almost every Fire Emblem with like Fates being the only one that is ambiguous about it as nobody can tell if Saizo or Rinkah is supposed to be the Red one(Saizo makes more sense as Kaze's brother but Rinkah is the one who you meet at the same time as Kaze and both of them don't join in Conquest so nobody really knows). I guess they decided they could try and put them in through DLC?

[Emperor Hardin]

2 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

I dunno, I think they believe Armor Knights have kind of been dropping in popularity lately - when was the last time you heard someone say their all-time favorite was Benny, Kellam, or the like? People like Amelia more now because of Heroes, and just about everyone likes the Black Knight, but that's it as far as I've seen, not to mention Armor Knights would walk and run frustratingly slow compared to everyone else, so I at least will not be missing them as playables.

No Cavs is weird, though, considering there's been a Red+Green duo in almost every Fire Emblem with like Fates being the only one that is ambiguous about it as nobody can tell if Saizo or Rinkah is supposed to be the Red one(Saizo makes more sense as Kaze's brother but Rinkah is the one who you meet at the same time as Kaze and both of them don't join in Conquest so nobody really knows). I guess they decided they could try and put them in through DLC?

Effie won a Japanese popularity, with General winning another popularity poll in the same magazine's class section. Bad or not, they are iconic to Fire Emblem, even Berwick Saga and SMTXFE included a playable one.

I hope they're not going to make us pay simply to get a mounted unit with a lance, something that should be one of the first things included in any Fire Emblem game.

[Moblin Major General]

The real problem is, those classes don't currently have anyone popular enough in them to warrant their inclusion. The only Armor Knight I could see getting in is either Black Knight or Draug, and the latter wouldn't even be coming in until the Shadow Dragon DLC drops. Xander and Frederick are literally the only 2 cavalier characters that are universally popular, and their bandwagon is trudging along well, regardless of how many people are on it. It just isn't going to happen.

[Emperor Hardin]

1 minute ago, Hylian Air Force said:

The real problem is, those classes don't currently have anyone popular enough in them to warrant their inclusion. The only Armor Knight I could see getting in is either Black Knight or Draug, and the latter wouldn't even be coming in until the Shadow Dragon DLC drops. Xander and Frederick are literally the only 2 cavalier characters that are universally popular, and their bandwagon is trudging along well, regardless of how many people are on it. It just isn't going to happen.

Camus and Hardin for popular and iconic Lance cavalry from Shadow Dragon. Then Cain, Abel, and Jagen.

Also Koei said they liked to go for surprise choices, yet they didn't do a single one for this game.

[SoulWeaver]

17 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Effie won a Japanese popularity, with General winning another popularity poll in the same magazine's class section. Bad or not, they are iconic to Fire Emblem, even Berwick Saga and SMTXFE included a playable one.

But they'd still have to run at like half speed compared to other Units, which in a game where you sometimes need to get across the entire battlefield in under a minute is a serious problem.

15 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Camus and Hardin for popular and iconic Lance cavalry from Shadow Dragon. Then Cain, Abel, and Jagen.

Also Koei said they liked to go for surprise choices, yet they didn't do a single one for this game.

Because not including Azura, Cain, Abel, etc in the base game isn't a surprise choice? I'd say Sakura and Elise as playables instead of NPCs came as a surprise to people as well, and if Navarre is playable as I hear then that's kind of left field as well.

[Moblin Major General]

9 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Camus and Hardin for popular and iconic Lance cavalry from Shadow Dragon. Then Cain, Abel, and Jagen.

As far as the West is concerned, these people don't matter. And that's a problem. Conquest alone dwarfed Shadow Dragon fourfold in the West in sales, and Awakening five-fold. And everyone is treating KT like it's the next Hello games, and that isn't fair to them, because in all honesty, it's just as petty as denouncing HAL for your favorite fighter in Smash getting either not included or even removed from the next Smash Bros. game. No Man's Sky was an abject failure, whereas this game is at least above average, with some drawbacks that can be worked out by DLC (probably). This isn't the travesty you're making it out to be. 

[Emperor Hardin]

10 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

But they'd still have to run at like half speed compared to other Units, which in a game where you sometimes need to get across the entire battlefield in under a minute is a serious problem.

Big Armored characters that slowly trudge across the field are hardly unknown to the Warriors series.

9 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

As far as the West is concerned, these people don't matter. And that's a problem. Conquest alone dwarfed Shadow Dragon fourfold in the West in sales, and Awakening five-fold. And everyone is treating KT like it's the next Hello games, and that isn't fair to them, because in all honesty, it's just as petty as denouncing HAL for your favorite fighter in Smash getting either not included or even removed from the next Smash Bros. game. No Man's Sky was an abject failure, whereas this game is at least above average, with some drawbacks that can be worked out by DLC (probably). This isn't the travesty you're making it out to be. 

FE3 is still the best selling FE game in Japan.

I didn't say it was a travesty, but it feels like new territory not to have those aspects in a game with Fire Emblem in the title.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Interdimensional Observer]

33 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Also Koei said they liked to go for surprise choices, yet they didn't do a single one for this game.

Iago wasn't a surprise? Validar wasn't a surprise. Celica wasn't a surprise? No Azura in the base game wasn't a surprise? Koei likes surprising us, just not in the way you'd expect.

 

14 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

As far as the West is concerned, these people don't matter. And that's a problem. Conquest alone dwarfed Shadow Dragon fourfold in the West in sales, and Awakening five-fold. And everyone is treating KT like it's the next Hello games, and that isn't fair to them, because in all honesty, it's just as petty as denouncing HAL for your favorite fighter in Smash getting either not included or even removed from the next Smash Bros. game. No Man's Sky was an abject failure, whereas this game is at least above average, with some drawbacks that can be worked out by DLC (probably). This isn't the travesty you're making it out to be.

Silas. Peri. Sophie. Stahl. Sully. All of these can use a lance on a horse and are in the other two games. And IS and Koei cater first and foremost like most Japanese video game developers to the Japanese audience, who are guaranteed buyers.

And yes, this isn't NMS or StH06 bad, but by FE and probably Musou standards, it is a controversy of no small note nonetheless. We had no expectations for the plot, all we cared about were the characters and the gameplay, and both have been snubbed by bad roster selection. KT said they'd make a Musou game like Fire Emblem, Fire Emblem has traditions and traditional classes, like Armors and the Weapon Triangle- KT failed to represent both. We have the right to call them out on it.

 

10 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Big Armored characters that slowly trudge across the field are hardly unknown to the Warriors series.

Why'd you choose Dong Zhuo of all people? Cao Ren would be better. Or Tadakatsu Honda? Xiahou Ba, Yoshihiro Shimazu, and Ieyasu Tokugawa count too. Why Ginchiyo Tachibana was pretty well armored by female standards in SW3.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[Emperor Hardin]

5 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Iago wasn't a surprise? Validar wasn't a surprise. Celica wasn't a surprise? No Azura in the base game wasn't a surprise? Koei likes surprising us, just not in the way you'd expect.

Iago was a surprise, but he isn't a playable character.

Celica wasn't a surprise for me.

Azura was a surprise absence, I'll say that.

I should've worded it better, a surprise playable character added to the roster. I really thought they'd do something similar to Agitha or the King of Red Lions in Zelda.

5 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Why'd you choose Dong Zhuo of all people? Cao Ren would be better. Or Tadakatsu Honda? Xiahou Ba, Yoshihiro Shimazu, and Ieyasu Tokugawa count too. Why Ginchiyo Tachibana was pretty well armored by female standards in SW3.

I wanted someone who looked real slow.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Ertrick36]

1 minute ago, SoulWeaver said:

I dunno, I think they believe Armor Knights have kind of been dropping in popularity lately - when was the last time you heard someone say their all-time favorite was Benny, Kellam, or the like? People like Amelia more now because of Heroes, and just about everyone likes the Black Knight, but that's it as far as I've seen, not to mention Armor Knights would walk and run frustratingly slow compared to everyone else, so I at least will not be missing them as playables.

I actually like Benny and Sheena, the first female armor knight/general in the series.  And I know I've seen people list Effie as one of their favorites.  Maybe they aren't fan favorites, but some out there like them.

5 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

The real problem is, those classes don't currently have anyone popular enough in them to warrant their inclusion. The only Armor Knight I could see getting in is either Black Knight or Draug, and the latter wouldn't even be coming in until the Shadow Dragon DLC drops. Xander and Frederick are literally the only 2 cavalier characters that are universally popular, and their bandwagon is trudging along well, regardless of how many people are on it. It just isn't going to happen.

I'll echo what Emperor Hardin said and say that statement about the cavs is just straight up incorrect.  Along with the ones listed, there are also a number of actual lord characters who are lance-wielding cavs.  Ephraim becomes one when he promotes, and Sigurd and Eliwood could use either swords or lances when they promoted.  Not to mention Seth is notorious for making the game he's in really easy, and he's a paladin with a focus on lances (starts with a silver lance and A rank in it).  Popular mounted lance using units are hardly unknown in the west.

Regardless, this demonstrates the problem with doing things solely by "popularity"; you wind up with a lack of diversity.  We have mostly sword users, and those that aren't weapon users come largely in part from or Fates, not to mention the only lance users that we're aware of being playable are all fliers.  If Oboro is playable, or will be in a free update/DLC, she'll ironically be the most unique playable lancer in the game in spite of the fact that she apparently uses the generic lancer moveset (from what I hear).

7 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Also Koei said they liked to go for surprise choices, yet they didn't do a single one for this game.

It was what I sort of was hoping for, and is why I sort of lament the roster choices they made.  I wasn't one of the people who were mad when they didn't go for representation across the series, but I also didn't want them to just pick the abundantly obvious choices unless they had room for more.

Though I have a feeling KT isn't entirely to blame for the roster being the way it is.

14 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

But they'd still have to run at like half speed compared to other Units, which in a game where you sometimes need to get across the entire battlefield in under a minute is a serious problem.

That's why you're able to change which units you use.  Armors could be used for keep defense, or in place of a more feeble unit if you need the added protection.

And if those aren't significant incentives to use them, then KT should redesign/balance the game so that they are.

17 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

Because not including Azura, Cain, Abel, etc in the base game isn't a surprise choice? I'd say Sakura and Elise as playables instead of NPCs came as a surprise to people as well, and if Navarre is playable as I hear then that's kind of left field as well.

Not the kind of "surprise" people were looking forward to.

And I'd say Sakura and Elise, while they might raise a few eyebrows, are hardly a surprise.  When most people say "surprise", they mean characters like Wrys, Reina, Kellam, or various other less popular characters.  Or heck, anyone from the Fates cast that isn't a royal is more of a surprise.  Sakura and Elise is about as surprising as leaves falling off trees in Autumn.  It was one of those things where they could go either way and the majority wouldn't be so surprised.

9 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Silas. Peri. Sophie. Stahl. Sully. All of these can use a lance on a horse and are in the other two games. And IS and Koei cater first and foremost like most Japanese video game developers to the Japanese audience, who are guaranteed buyers.

Also this.

I'd suspect the only reason they might appeal more to fans outside of Japan is due to IS or Nintendo's input, particularly the latter since Nintendo is much larger and has more of a vested interest in international appeal than Japanese third parties.

Though I hear KT has been making some changes, like apparently overhauling their main Musou series, so maybe they are going for broader appeal.  I won't claim to know exactly what the motives are behind this.

[Emperor Hardin]

3 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

Though I have a feeling KT isn't entirely to blame for the roster being the way it is.

I know Lucina was mentioned as demanded by Nintendo according to an interview with Koei.

4 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

I actually like Benny and Sheena, the first female armor knight/general in the series.  And I know I've seen people list Effie as one of their favorites.  Maybe they aren't fan favorites, but some out there like them.

Some time after Fates release, there was a Japan poll on most popular character, Effie was one of the top characters, while General was in the top 4 of favorite classes.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

Though I hear KT has been making some changes, like apparently overhauling their main Musou series, so maybe they are going for broader appeal.  I won't claim to know exactly what the motives are behind this.

Well aesthetically they're toning down the fantasy for a facade of looking more realistic and historic in Dynasty Warriors 9. And they're also trying to be modern with the game by going down the ever popular road of Open World gameplay.

[Shadow Mir]

6 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Some time after Fates release, there was a Japan poll on most popular character, Effie was one of the top characters, while General was in the top 4 of favorite classes.

I never heard of this class poll. How did it play out?

10 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

Along with the ones listed, there are also a number of actual lord characters who are lance-wielding cavs.  Ephraim becomes one when he promotes, and Sigurd and Eliwood could use either swords or lances when they promoted.  Not to mention Seth is notorious for making the game he's in really easy, and he's a paladin with a focus on lances (starts with a silver lance and A rank in it).  Popular mounted lance using units are hardly unknown in the west.

Seth also starts with an A in Swords. Also, those lords you mentioned are either from a Japan only game (Sigurd. who I must also note started out promoted, not to mention being more noted as a sword user [considering he gets a Silver Sword early in the game and his personal weapon is a sword]) or shared the spotlight with someone else (admittedly, Lyn and Celica managed to get in in spite of this).

Though I do agree that no cavaliers is pretty weird all in all.

[Emperor Hardin]

5 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I never heard of this class poll. How did it play out?

 

Here it is

Q14 Favorite Class?

1. True Bow (Sniper)
2. Trueblade (Swordmaster)
3. Maid 
4. General 

[Ertrick36]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Seth also starts with an A in Swords.

Which is why I also mentioned that he starts with a silver lance.  He also starts with a sword, but it's steel, which to me indicates that he'd have more of a focus in lances.

I'd say for Ephraim, while he did share a spotlight, he seemed more popular overall.  Yeah, he starts out as an infantry lancer, but he later becomes a mounted unit.  That would work out if we already get a few infantry lancers in the form of Azura, Oboro, and whoever else might show up.

In any event, I'd say Hardin and Camus are significant enough since Shadow Dragon did come to the west, and whatever success SD had was likely due to the west since apparently remakes (aside from the original Mystery) tanked hard in Japan (not to mention it's irregular for them to ignore their base in Japan, who clearly love Mystery a lot).  Camus also appears in Echoes, thinly veiled as "Zeke".

Regardless, I think if they gave a bit more of a focus to Shadow Dragon, maybe some of the issues in unit diversity would be fixed.  Have popularity and unit diversity go hand-in-hand, instead of have there be a friction between the two.

I guess we'll see if the DLC fixes some of these issues or just exacerbates them.

In any event, it doesn't affect me all that much.  I'll get the game...  It's just that I'll go into it with a number of criticisms and regrets about how some of the details turned out.  I'll only really have a problem if Niles, Owain, Oboro, and Navarre wind up being paid DLC or packaged with the Season Pass.

33 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Here it is

Q14 Favorite Class?

1. True Bow (Sniper)
2. Trueblade (Swordmaster)
3. Maid 
4. General 

ofc the Maid class is one of the most popular classes in Japan.

[Captain Karnage]

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Camus and Hardin for popular and iconic Lance cavalry from Shadow Dragon. Then Cain, Abel, and Jagen.

Also Koei said they liked to go for surprise choices, yet they didn't do a single one for this game.

I know right, I was SO surprised to see that every Fates royal got to be in

Camus feels like such a no brainer, but maybe well see him in the DLC, and then again, DLC

[Emperor Hardin]

3 minutes ago, Captain Karnage said:

I know right, I was SO surprised to see that every Fates royal got to be in

Camus feels like such a no brainer, but maybe well see him in the DLC, and then again, DLC

I'd hope its a free DLC patch.

12 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

ofc the Maid class is one of the most popular classes in Japan.

Forgot to mention, Butler was bunched with maid.

I still can't believe we have a maid class now.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Captain Karnage]

Just now, Emperor Hardin said:

I'd hope its a free DLC patch.

nope, it's all paid DLC

a $20 season pass with more to come

[Emperor Hardin]

32 minutes ago, Captain Karnage said:

nope, it's all paid DLC

a $20 season pass with more to come

I can hope anyhow.

 

[Dandy Druid]

2 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

I dunno, I think they believe Armor Knights have kind of been dropping in popularity lately - when was the last time you heard someone say their all-time favorite was Benny, Kellam, or the like?

IIRC Valbar and Lukas were moderately popular, with Lukas being donned the nickname "The Ginger Stud". The only problem was their movement in Echoes, despite their good combat ability. They were both well received for the most part though.

[Sire]

I expected a playable Armor Knight and a Lance Cavalier, but looking at the main story I see no instance of either anywhere...

I can somewhat see their logic in making Paladins Swords and Great Knights Axes in that it is easier to identify what class wield what weapon for the sake of the weapon triangle, but the WT is thrown out of proportion due the sword heavy roster. I just keep having flashbacks on how the development team loved Fire Emblem, but whoever was directing them "had no idea what Fire Emblem is."

I suppose the best we can hope for is that these classes and future characters are given justice in the DLC, even if they should have gotten them right in the base game...

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Playing as an Armor Knight that moves slowly would definitely be frustrating eventually, but I think they could have been included all the same, especially since there is an option to switch your current character. Knights could have been utilized by commanding them to plug certain key chokepoints through the map system and such, and there are definitely defensive maps in Warriors games.

[Sasori]

From a million lance cavalries in Heroes to 0 in Warriors.

But yeah i'm surprised to see a lack of lance cavalries. Both Camus and Hardin where such obvious picks that its surprising such a recuring fighting style hasn't been used in Warriors. One of those might have gotten in if they bothered to give Shadow Dragon as much attention as the rest of the cast.

Armour knights not getting in is less surprising to me. None of the armour knights from the 3 games where that marketable or important.

[Emperor Hardin]

1 hour ago, Sasori said:

Armour knights not getting in is less surprising to me. None of the armour knights from the 3 games where that marketable or important.

Effie is rather popular.

Draug is gaining recognition thanks to remakes and SMTxFE.

Also  if Mystery is allowed, there's Sheena.