Weapon refinery - unfair balancing issue!!!

[Prince Endriu]

There is an unfair balancing issue in the refinery

 

 

Example:

+spd karel has 38spd and 30atk

Making it 43atk

+atk karel has 35spd and 33atk

Making it 46

With the upgrade:

+spd karel receives 3more atk with the 16mt wo dao

Making it 46 and keeping the 38spd

+atk karel receives 1more atk with the 14mt wo dao AND 3spd

Making it 47 AND will have 38spd.

The difference might be minor but its still there. 

 

IS should fix this

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Prince Endriu

[Ice Dragon]

Not a bug; how it works.

Certain natures have an advantage over others. This was true before weapon refining and is true after weapon refining.

A +Atk nature with a +Def refine has +1 Atk and +1 Def over a +Def nature with a +Atk refine on most units.

[Astellius]

I don't see what's unfair about it. The attack upgrade to most weapons gives less of a stat boost than the other stat upgrades, but how is that unfair or, indeed, an issue at all? It was designed that way, it's another way to customize your character. I don't recall it ever being billed as a way to fix bad natures or make all natures equal.

Atk is one of the most important stats, so it does make sense that refinement doesn't increase it as much as some other stats. It's left to the player to decide whether they want 2 more Atk vs. 4 more Def or whatever.

[Prince Endriu]

16 minutes ago, Astellius said:

I don't see what's unfair about it. The attack upgrade to most weapons gives less of a stat boost than the other stat upgrades, but how is that unfair or, indeed, an issue at all? It was designed that way, it's another way to customize your character. I don't recall it ever being billed as a way to fix bad natures or make all natures equal.

Atk is one of the most important stats, so it does make sense that refinement doesn't increase it as much as some other stats. It's left to the player to decide whether they want 2 more Atk vs. 4 more Def or whatever.

True. Its up to the player. 

The problem is that it changes the subjective meta of whats possibly the best IV for a unit. Normally I would say +spd Karel would be best but in this regard I would consider +atk better. Like I said the difference is minor but it favors one option over another, and thats my beef.

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Prince Endriu said:

The problem is that it changes the subjective meta of whats possibly the best IV for a unit. Normally I would say +spd Karel would be best but in this regard I would consider +atk better. Like I said the difference is minor but it favors one option over another, and thats my beef.

The differentiator is that +Atk Karel has the option to run a +Atk weapon for +5 Atk, and +Spd Karel has the option to run a +Spd weapon for +6 Spd.

+Spd Karel having less performance with a +Atk weapon than +Atk Karel with a +Spd weapon is just standard one nature being better than the other and standard shifts in the meta.

[Usana]

My biggest issue with the discrepancies isn't the effect on natures, but rather the fact that you pay the same for more. You would think that if it gives less that it would cost less(though I suppose the discount would be small if kept in proportion to the stat difference). But I suppose that mostly comes up since it feels like it gets shafted in comparison to speed. I can easily see the defensive stats being higher since defense in general is far less valuable than offense in this game. But speed is one of the biggest contributors to offense so you would think it would be the one most limited or that it would at least be equally limited. However, for some reason it is attack alone that is so limited(I am assuming speed is the baseline and defenses are boosted and attack penalized).

Anyways does anyone use the extra attack ones? I imagine gotta go fast is the general want, with defense of choice being used on slower units who know they will likely get doubled anyways. So yeah I don't think the choices have equal merit. If they wanted them to have equal merit than spd should have been the one taking a hit, not atk.

[XRay]

6 hours ago, Prince Endriu said:

There is an unfair balancing issue in the refinery

Example:

+spd karel has 38spd and 30atk
Making it 43atk
+atk karel has 35spd and 33atk
Making it 46
With the upgrade:
+spd karel receives 3more atk with the 16mt wo dao
Making it 46 and keeping the 38spd
+atk karel receives 1more atk with the 14mt wo dao AND 3spd
Making it 47 AND will have 38spd.
The difference might be minor but its still there. 

IS should fix this

32 minutes ago, Usana said:

My biggest issue with the discrepancies isn't the effect on natures, but rather the fact that you pay the same for more. You would think that if it gives less that it would cost less(though I suppose the discount would be small if kept in proportion to the stat difference). But I suppose that mostly comes up since it feels like it gets shafted in comparison to speed. I can easily see the defensive stats being higher since defense in general is far less valuable than offense in this game. But speed is one of the biggest contributors to offense so you would think it would be the one most limited or that it would at least be equally limited. However, for some reason it is attack alone that is so limited(I am assuming speed is the baseline and defenses are boosted and attack penalized).

Anyways does anyone use the extra attack ones? I imagine gotta go fast is the general want, with defense of choice being used on slower units who know they will likely get doubled anyways. So yeah I don't think the choices have equal merit. If they wanted them to have equal merit than spd should have been the one taking a hit, not atk.

I think the developers are trying to make tanking more relevant, although I do not think +4 is good enough in my opinion. I think +6 or more is necessary and they should also allow an option to split the stat increase in half to boost both stats.

5 hours ago, Astellius said:

I don't see what's unfair about it. The attack upgrade to most weapons gives less of a stat boost than the other stat upgrades, but how is that unfair or, indeed, an issue at all? It was designed that way, it's another way to customize your character. I don't recall it ever being billed as a way to fix bad natures or make all natures equal.

Atk is one of the most important stats, so it does make sense that refinement doesn't increase it as much as some other stats. It's left to the player to decide whether they want 2 more Atk vs. 4 more Def or whatever.

I agree with this.

[Clogon]

2 hours ago, XRay said:

I think +6 or more is necessary and they should also allow an option to split the stat increase in half to boost both stats.

If you are F2P, sure. It is already difficult to ORKO many units thanks to the defense seals. 

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Clogon said:

If you are F2P, sure. It is already difficult to ORKO many units thanks to the defense seals. 

I still find one rounding units particularly easy. Most units die to either BH!Lyn or Reinhardt, and any Gronnraven mage that counters that dies to my Olivia. BH!Lyn and Olivia are free, and Reinhardt is available as a 4*.

[Prince Endriu]

Okay, maybe I overreacted a little.

In the end its even kind of cool to have another system which changes things up a bit more. Just a little bit annoying when you think that you own the best IV of a character, only to find out that a different idea might be a tad bit better.

[Usana]

9 hours ago, XRay said:

I think the developers are trying to make tanking more relevant, although I do not think +4 is good enough in my opinion. I think +6 or more is necessary and they should also allow an option to split the stat increase in half to boost both stats.

I was kinda thinking that with the higher defense boosts and all getting HP. However, in that case you would think spd and atk should have both been lessened, rather than just attack. Spd is at least as guilty for one rounding as atk. If not more so.

But yeah, can't argue with your second sentence.

[Hilda]

2 hours ago, Usana said:

I was kinda thinking that with the higher defense boosts and all getting HP. However, in that case you would think spd and atk should have both been lessened, rather than just attack. Spd is at least as guilty for one rounding as atk. If not more so.

But yeah, can't argue with your second sentence.

We dont know what new weapons come out and can be Forged.

Berkuts Lance for example is a fantastic RES weapon givng you 11 RES and 5 HP when being attacked by a tome user. Thats kinda huge which means that Litrblade users need 16 more attack to kill the unit or in the case of Reinhardt 8 more attack, if they barely could kill the unit beforehand.

Best Example: +10 Clair runs a wooping 54 RES with the new Berkuts Lance+ Distant Def 3 Seal, Distant Counter resulting in most Reinhardts I have encountered dealing 0 to her. A +10 +Atk Death blow Reinhardt will sit at exactly 54 Atk, meaning wiht additional horse buffs he deals 6 dmg to her. And if you give her Guard 3 or Blue Tome Breaker then its good night for Reinhardts that even run Lance breaker. She will kill him on the counter hit.
This isnt even taking into consideration what Buffs Clair can recieve from Flyer Emblem or other units!

There are some Weapons left that havent gotten an upgrade that could go into the same direction. For example Binding Blade, all the distant counter weapons with no upgrade yet, Regal Blade etc. and future inheritable new GHB Weapons to come.

[XRay]

3 hours ago, Usana said:

I was kinda thinking that with the higher defense boosts and all getting HP. However, in that case you would think spd and atk should have both been lessened, rather than just attack. Spd is at least as guilty for one rounding as atk. If not more so.

But yeah, can't argue with your second sentence.

Compared to Defense and Resistance, Speed is -1 stat point and Attack is -2 stat points. I think some tanks might be able to use Speed Refinement to avoid doubles, but all the tanks I have experimented with so far prefers Defense or Resistance Refinement.

12 minutes ago, Hilda said:

We dont know what new weapons come out and can be Forged.

If it is a highly offensive top tier weapon like Blades and Braves, I do not think they will get an upgrade. I would not mind it as a player since I run Reinhardt and BH!Lyn, but I would be concerned about players being frustrated with the meta and the long term health of the game.

Edited December 5, 2017 by XRay

[Hilda]

26 minutes ago, XRay said:

Compared to Defense and Resistance, Speed is -1 stat point and Attack is -2 stat points. I think some tanks might be able to use Speed Refinement to avoid doubles, but all the tanks I have experimented with so far prefers Defense or Resistance Refinement.

If it is a highly offensive top tier weapon like Blades and Braves, I do not think they will get an upgrade. I would not mind it as a player since I run Reinhardt and BH!Lyn, but I would be concerned about players being frustrated with the meta and the long term health of the game.

The meta has allready shaken up. BLyn seems to be dieing due to the new Weapon Reforge of Lightning Breaths (unless you run a Firesweep bow BLyn).

Reinhardt is just a matter of time. In my opinion Berkuts Lance opened alot of Reinhardt counters and buffed the survivability of Lance users against him tremendously. And if there are Axe and Sword versions on the way it will shake the meta even more.

I think the new meta will revolve around Dragonstone users imho. Their new Lightning Breath upgrade makes ranged users useless against them in most cases, with the ecxeption of a few that run Balanced stats in RES and DEF, or have the power to one shot/double (Litrblades with massiv buffs and/or Desperation builds) with very high attack stats but poor defense stats, which narrows it down to like 10% of the ranged cast.

[XRay]

13 minutes ago, Hilda said:

The meta has allready shaken up. BLyn seems to be dieing due to the new Weapon Reforge of Lightning Breaths (unless you run a Firesweep bow BLyn).

Reinhardt is just a matter of time. In my opinion Berkuts Lance opened alot of Reinhardt counters and buffed the survivability of Lance users against him tremendously. And if there are Axe and Sword versions on the way it will shake the meta even more.

I think the new meta will revolve around Dragonstone users imho. Their new Lightning Breath upgrade makes ranged users useless against them in most cases, with the ecxeption of a few that run Balanced stats in RES and DEF, or have the power to one shot/double (Litrblades with massiv buffs and/or Desperation builds) with very high attack stats but poor defense stats, which narrows it down to like 10% of the ranged cast.

No unit can stand up to both BH!Lyn and Reinhardt at the same time though, besides Gronnraven mages, and if you have Olivia they are a non issue.

Nowi still dies to Reinhardt if you modify her Triangle Adept set to handle BH!Lyn. BH!Lyn completely shuts down non-dragon melee units, unless they decide to release a skill that cancels Sacae's Blessing or something.

10% of the ranged cast might not be a lot, but the meta is already full of top tier units anyways, so I do not think it would make much of a difference.

[Ice Dragon]

34 minutes ago, Hilda said:

I think the new meta will revolve around Dragonstone users imho. Their new Lightning Breath upgrade makes ranged users useless against them in most cases, with the ecxeption of a few that run Balanced stats in RES and DEF, or have the power to one shot/double (Litrblades with massiv buffs and/or Desperation builds) with very high attack stats but poor defense stats, which narrows it down to like 10% of the ranged cast.

The buff to breath weapons just means that high-Res melee units now have a use (though admittedly, green is pretty lacking in those).

Firesweep weapons are also an option (though Firesweep Axe doesn't yet exist).

You can also just Dazzling Pain+ them to death. Close Counter Wrys new meta.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[XRay]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Close Counter Wrys new meta.

Elise is cuter and more terrifying.

[Tenzen12]

While I recently finally understood how much of beast Nowi is, I don't see her and her kind having lot of impact on meta. Well at least there are almost no dragons around rank 20 and above that it should be basically armor emblem (or maybe not).

Anyway both Nowi and Fa are pretty easy prey for Cecilia so everything is alright with world.

[Ice Dragon]

Just now, Tenzen12 said:

Well at least there are almost no dragons around rank 20 and above that it should be basically armor emblem (or maybe not).

Ahahahahah. Ahaha. Aha. Ah. Ha.

Fjorm's existence makes literally every character capable of reaching at least 746 or so (as long as the other members of the team are high enough), including staff users.

I found a team of 3 dragons and Fjorm last night while running regular Arena worth 744 points. It got crushed by my own dragons.

[GinRei]

13 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

While I recently finally understood how much of beast Nowi is, I don't see her and her kind having lot of impact on meta. Well at least there are almost no dragons around rank 20 and above that it should be basically armor emblem (or maybe not).

That's not how the arena works.  It goes by your score, not your rank.

I just ran into a dragon team + Olivia in the arena this morning.  Really caught me off guard with how bulky Nowi was with Steady Breath + QR.  Took about 10 turns of running around the map to get her in a position where she wasn't on a defensive tile and no one else would be in dancing range of my units to actually have Brave Lyn run in and barely take her down before being dragged/repositioned to safety.  This battle alone will probably make me swap off her Draconic Aura for Luna.  I knew Luna was very slightly better, but now I found a very applicable use for it.

[Kruggov]

1 hour ago, GinRei said:

That's not how the arena works.  It goes by your score, not your rank.

Yeah, it does go by score, but Rank 20 (an to a lesser extent, 19) are filled to the brim with high score teams of whales. IMO, if your average enemy is below 700-something, you have no chance in hell of staying in 19, and to stay in 20 you'll need those 740 teams

1 hour ago, GinRei said:

Took about 10 turns of running around the map to get her in a position where she wasn't on a defensive tile

I fkin hate Nowi on defense terrain, her defenses are ungodly.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

jorm's existence makes literally every character capable of reaching at least 746 or so (as long as the other members of the team are high enough), including staff users.

I expect the next tier to be Fjorm+3 Amelias with Slaying Hammers to kill each other with. Or one of them with Grani's shield to screw over those Hammers.

[GinRei]

1 minute ago, Kruggov said:

Yeah, it does go by score, but Rank 20 (an to a lesser extent, 19) are filled to the brim with high score teams of whales. IMO, if your average enemy is below 700-something, you have no chance in hell of staying in 19, and to stay in 20 you'll need those 740 teams

I've been bouncing between tiers 19 and 20 for months while fighting teams averaging 694.

[Kruggov]

Just now, GinRei said:

I've been bouncing between tiers 19 and 20 for months while fighting teams averaging 694.

Ok... It appears i was mistaken. But still, you need a ton of score to stay in 20.

[Ice Dragon]

7 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

I expect the next tier to be Fjorm+3 Amelias with Slaying Hammers to kill each other with. Or one of them with Grani's shield to screw over those Hammers.

750 is basically 2 of Amelia or Hector, 1 Fjorm, and 1 of Ayra or Mia. They don't even need to be running maximum SP skills to get there since Steady Breath, Wrath, Cancel Affinity, and Windsweep are commonly used and not optimal for scoring.

[Clogon]

23 hours ago, XRay said:

I still find one rounding units particularly easy. Most units die to either BH!Lyn or Reinhardt, and any Gronnraven mage that counters that dies to my Olivia. BH!Lyn and Olivia are free, and Reinhardt is available as a 4*.

Just because F2P players can't easily access fully built tanky units doesn't mean that they don't exist. My +10 -HP/+ATK Fae could already survive any +10 +SPD Fury Falcon user (disregarding seals) before 2.0. There are plenty of users that make their units tanky like this guy that made his Stahl a Reinhardt counter:

https://www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/7hd30b/magic_is_everythi_wait_nevermind/

 

The fact muse most units aren't meant to be tanky and the ones that are also have weaknesses doesn't mean that weapon upgrades should break them. +4 DEF/RES is more than enough to help EP units do what they need to do (counter specific units and match-ups) and have an advantage over choosing +ATK and +SPD.