What do you call RPGs made by Europeans?

[Ronnie]

No seriously, obviously not a JRPG but it can't be called a Western RPG since it ain't American? Eastern RPGs?

[Chen]

WJRPG

[Flee Fleet!]

uuuh ERPG? E for European?

 

I dunno.

[Rezzy]

Europe is still "the West", so Western RPG still applies.

[Reality]

They can still be called Western RPGs. Continental Europe and the United Kingdom are usualy considered part of the Western world for history and political purposes. Maybe games by Russian developers are a fringe case.

 

More importantly, the games (usually) have a lot of mechanics in common with American CRPGs that are very rare in JRPGs, such as having more direct connection to D&D, systems like GURPs, a certain kind of skill talent tree progression and so on. 

[Ronnie]

sigh, I'm an uncultured American who slept through global history in high school.

[Nobody]

A bit late, but https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

[Rex Glacies]

1 hour ago, Rezzy said:

Europe is still "the West", so Western RPG still applies.

 

[DisobeyedCargo]

ERPG I guess 

[Rezzy]

28 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

ERPG I guess 

 

3 hours ago, Flee Fleet! said:

uuuh ERPG? E for European?

 

I dunno.

ERPing means erotic role playing around these parts, so that might not be the best acronym.

[Nobody]

If ERPG means European RPG, does this mean ARPG means American RPG rather than Action RPG?

[Interdimensional Observer]

Depends, what is the gameplay, styling, plot, world etc. of said RPG like?

For me, the terms JRPG and WRPG have lost regional meaning, even if JRPGs are predominantly made in Japan, and WRPGs the USA.

JRPG and WRPG refer to a general set of ideas like those listed above, if the game leans towards one camp or another, it falls in that camp.

Take the obscure Black Sigil: Blade of the Exiled for DS. The game is made in Canada, so it should be a WRPG, but it plays like a knockoff Chrono Trigger, which means it's a JRPG. Child of Light (which was too rushed for its pseudo-indie nature) also falls firmly into the JRPG category. On the other hand, something like a Souls or Bloodborne, which admittedly I've never played, but sounds like its very Western, I would have no issue calling a WRPG if I thought it so, even though the developer is Japanese.

[Nobody]

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

On the other hand, something like a Souls or Bloodborne, which admittedly I've never played, but sounds like its very Western,

They aren’t. They play nothing like most western RPGs. If they did, I’d probably not be such a big fan of them.

the Japanese RPG that I’ve played that plays the most like most WRPGs is Dragon’s Dogma, and even then it’s distinctly Japanese.

 

to me, RPG made in the west: WRPG. RPG made in Japan: JRPG, regardless of how they play.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Nobody

[Jotari]

Wait, people still split RPGs into two super categories? I thought people stopped doing that when they realised it was pointless (which it is). Just use terms that imply the core mechanic of the game better.

On that note, we should stop referring to the fire world as the western world too. Because calling New Zealand western is just inane.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Jotari

[Slumber]

It's still a western RPG. The Witcher, a game made in Slavic/Eastern Europe, is still considered a WRPG.

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

On that note, we should stop referring to the fire world as the western world too. Because calling New Zealand western is just inane.

It's more based on the cultures that make the game more than strictly the location it's made. Western culture=Western RPG. New Zealand is about as east as Japan is, but it's still "culturally" western, and an RPG coming from New Zealand would likely be called a western RPG.

Similarly, something like Dark Souls is generally not considered a JRPG, since although it's made in Japan, it doesn't really fit the "JRPG" mold. Its influences are far closer to WRPGs, but it also isn't really that.

The whole thing is dumb, but that's gamers for you.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Slumber

[ping]

8 hours ago, Rezzy said:

ERPing means erotic role playing around these parts, so that might not be the best acronym.

Isn't one of the American clichés about Europeans that we're all super kinky? They might actually be on to something.

[Jotari]

11 hours ago, Slumber said:

It's still a western RPG. The Witcher, a game made in Slavic/Eastern Europe, is still considered a WRPG.

It's more based on the cultures that make the game more than strictly the location it's made. Western culture=Western RPG. New Zealand is about as east as Japan is, but it's still "culturally" western, and an RPG coming from New Zealand would likely be called a western RPG.

Similarly, something like Dark Souls is generally not considered a JRPG, since although it's made in Japan, it doesn't really fit the "JRPG" mold. Its influences are far closer to WRPGs, but it also isn't really that.

The whole thing is dumb, but that's gamers for you.

But the JRPG Mold is both ambigious and far from universal. What does JRPG even mean if not based on location of production? Clearly Final Fantasy games are the quintessential JRPGs and games that obviously draw from that market. But then is the Mother series a JRPG? Is Pokemon a JRPG? Hell what about Fire Emblem itself? It's a Tactical RPG. But is it a tactical JRPG? As far as I can gather, JRPGs typically have more linear stories and set characters, while Western RPGs are more based on customisation and open world. But you can probably find just as many outliers on both sides of the world that take the design philosophy of the other. So just calling things Sandbox RPGs or Linear RPGs isn't just more sensible, it's clearer as to what the term even means. It is all rather silly, but as gamers, what we can actually determine what these labels are and mean (unlike my dreams to see the collapse of the phrase Western World).

Edited February 4, 2018 by Jotari

[Darros]

Europe makes RPGs?

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

But the JRPG Mold is both ambigious and far from universal. What does JRPG even mean if not based on location of production? Clearly Final Fantasy games are the quintessential JRPGs and games that obviously draw from that market. But then is the Mother series a JRPG? Is Pokemon a JRPG? Hell what about Fire Emblem itself? It's a Tactical RPG. But is it a tactical JRPG? As far as I can gather, JRPGs typically have more linear stories and set characters, while Western RPGs are more based on customisation and open world. But you can probably find just as many outliers on both sides of the world that take the design philosophy of the other. So just calling things Sandbox RPGs or Linear RPGs isn't just more sensible, it's clearer as to what the term even means. It is all rather silly, but as gamers, what we can actually determine what these labels are and mean (unlike my dreams to see the collapse of the phrase Western World).

Mother is a JRPG, Pokemon is a JRPG, Fire Emblem is a JRPG. I don't even know why something like Mother is even on the table when its gameplay flow is near identical to Dragon Quest, the exemplar JRPG. 

Linear and sandbox might make more sense on paper, but the whole idea behind "western" and "Japanese" monikers for RPGs is the design sensibilities of the games. Yes, not all WRPGs are strictly sandbox, not all JRPGs are strictly linear. But you can pretty much play a game for 10 minutes, before you even get an idea if a game is sandbox or linear, and quickly determine if it's a JRPG or a WRPG. You don't even need to play them on most cases. 

Again, the blurriest this gets is Dark Souls, which is made with Japanese cultural sensibilities(It's basically like somebody remade Dragon Quest 1 and Castlevania at the same time while watching Berserk, and turned it into an action RPG) but you could also beat the whole game and never realize it was made by Japanese people. Even something like Dragon's Dogma wears its Japanese sensibilities on its sleeve more than Dark Souls, and DD was aping far more from the west. 

I do think, as Japanese culture becomes more mainstream in the west, and Western culture influences Japan more, that eventually these classifications will become meaningless and even sillier. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Slumber

[Jotari]

32 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Mother is a JRPG, Pokemon is a JRPG, Fire Emblem is a JRPG. I don't even know why something like Mother is even on the table when its gameplay flow is near identical to Dragon Quest, the exemplar JRPG. 

Linear and sandbox might make more sense on paper, but the whole idea behind "western" and "Japanese" monikers for RPGs is the design sensibilities of the games. Yes, not all WRPGs are strictly sandbox, not all JRPGs are strictly linear. But you can pretty much play a game for 10 minutes, before you even get an idea if a game is sandbox or linear, and quickly determine if it's a JRPG or a WRPG. You don't even need to play them on most cases. 

Again, the blurriest this gets is Dark Souls, which is made with Japanese cultural sensibilities(It's basically like somebody remade Dragon Quest 1 and Castlevania at the same time while watching Berserk, and turned it into an action RPG) but you could also beat the whole game and never realize it was made by Japanese people. Even something like Dragon's Dogma wears its Japanese sensibilities on its sleeve more than Dark Souls, and DD was aping far more from the west. 

I put the likes of Mother and Pokemon on the table because there's also a perception that JRPGs are all about people with strange hair and big swords fighting god in a very animesque manner. Mother was made to intentionally have a different feeling from the other RPGs of the time (and has it's own very distinctinve flavor that's been emulated by western developers). Pokemon is also very unlike what you'd typically think og as JRPGs in it's focus on collection and training of monsters, rather than building individual characters. Indeed there is a whole Mons sub genre out there that I'd class as something completely different (on a related note, with you consider a Trading Card game where you construct and build a deck to be an RPG? In terms of gameflow it's not all that different to the likes of Pokemon). In essence, if you gave me Mother, Pokemon, Final Fantasy, Fire Emblem and Dark Souls in a box and told me to group them, then I don't think Dark Souls would be the outlier that's clearly different to the other four.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Jotari

[Tryhard]

I don't know, I too think Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma are pretty themed as WRPG moreso than the style of any other JRPG.

They like their olde medieval European style quite a lot.

But that's depending if you take "JRPG" to mean "was literally made in Japan", or if it follows the traditions and mechanics of a JRPG "genre". Those two don't really do so for the latter, and they don't really have an anime style either (mostly).

In that way, you wouldn't call a FPS made in Japan to be a JFPS. Dark Souls is an Western-influenced Action RPG made in Japan. There are examples of the vice versa from Western developers. People can consider Undertale to be one.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Tryhard

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I put the likes of Mother and Pokemon on the table because there's also a perception that JRPGs are all about people with strange hair and big swords fighting god in a very animesque manner. Mother was made to intentionally have a different feeling from the other RPGs of the time (and has it's own very distinctinve flavor that's been emulated by western developers). Pokemon is also very unlike what you'd typically think og as JRPGs in it's focus on collection and training of monsters, rather than building individual characters. Indeed there is a whole Mons sub genre out there that I'd class as something completely different (on a related note, with you consider a Trading Card game where you construct and build a deck to be an RPG? In terms of gameflow it's not all that different to the likes of Pokemon). In essence, if you gave me Mother, Pokemon, Final Fantasy, Fire Emblem and Dark Souls in a box and told me to group them, then I don't think Dark Souls would be the outlier that's clearly different to the other four.

What deck building games usually don't have:

• RPG elements(IE stat boosting and character progression)
• A 10 year old protagonist who is out to save the world from evil organizations
• A determined rival who is trying to challenge you every step of the way
• A linear, segmented game structure

Pokemon has these, and the only deck building games you'll find half of those elements in are all Japanese, so... I can't think of a western card game that is at all structured or presented like Pokemon, which is an RPG, and the other elements are pretty distinctly Japanese(Arguably barring the linear game structure, but that's still mostly a Japanese thing when it comes to RPGs). A JRPG.

You tell me what Dark Souls does that is distinctly Japanese beyond the lack of dialogue options. It has a much more open ended world, more loose, action-oriented gameplay, a pretty wide-spread lack of typical JRPG tropes, a heavy western aesthetic, and a moment-to-moment game experience where you do stuff like fight the undead on your way to kill gods.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Slumber

[Jotari]

43 minutes ago, Slumber said:

What deck building games usually don't have:

• RPG elements(IE stat boosting and character progression)
• A 10 year old protagonist who is out to save the world from evil organizations
• A determined rival who is trying to challenge you every step of the way
• A linear, segmented game structure

Pokemon has these, and the only deck building games you'll find half of those elements in are all Japanese, so... I can't think of a western card game that is at all structured or presented like Pokemon, which is an RPG, and the other elements are pretty distinctly Japanese(Arguably barring the linear game structure, but that's still mostly a Japanese thing when it comes to RPGs). A JRPG.

You tell me what Dark Souls does that is distinctly Japanese beyond the lack of dialogue options. It has a much more open ended world, more loose, action-oriented gameplay, a pretty wide-spread lack of typical JRPG tropes, a heavy western aesthetic, and a moment-to-moment game experience where you do stuff like fight the undead on your way to kill gods.

You're going back to general culturial feelings there that are both subjective and largely pointless. Sure, Dark Souls feels like it's not Japanese. But what is a Japanese feeling game? Is the quirkyness of Mother a distinctively Japanese style? What should it's western emulators be considered?  There is no doubt a Japanese style of game design, but in our globalized world there's plenty of people that use such philosophies outside of Japan and plenty of people that don't within Japan. And for some reason only the RPG genre sees fit to have a division by culture. The divide is not so difficult that I find it surprisingly or hard to believe that Dark Souls was made by Japanese people. Likewise I don't find it strange that the games made by Rare or Free Radical are made by British people, even though they largely feel the same as many Japanese made games.

[Ronnie]

4 hours ago, Darros said:

Europe makes RPGs?

Horizon Zero Dawn was made in the Netherlands.

[Darros]

12 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Horizon Zero Dawn was made in the Netherlands.

i have literally never heard of that one but i guess the more you know